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So my vanishing pattern hypo female was super swollen and had successfully bred numerous times with my big anery het male. For two years in a row she had given me less than decent clutches, laying ten eggs one year with only being fertile then last year she laid 11 egs with only one being fertile. She laid 14 eggs and there are two that might be good. I am beyond bummed. She is a gorgeous snake but she just doesn't seem to be getting something to breed well. She was paired with a different male this year and it didn't seem to matter. The same male also was paired with another female who laid six perfect eggs. For what it's worth the 14 eggs were mostly small and kind of mishapen. Those that looked semi-normal also had "windows".

Maybe I need to put her on supplements. I don't know. She eats just like all my other snakes and is lively, etc. I guess some snakes just won't be good breeders?

My question has to do with getting really big, banana-like eggs, especially from young females. Does anybody else see this and know why it happens? There's a pic above of one clutch of this kind of egg from last year and I've had a couple more this year. The hatchlings come out extra big.

Rob Haneisen

Hey Rob,

I'm a bit new to the milksnake forum and to breeding oviparous snakes in general. I just picked up my first handful of young future breeder milksnakes about a month ago with plans to get them started next year. Among the bunch was a beautiful young hypo apricot pueblan who, to my surprise, became noticeably gravid only days after I purchased her. I have a picture of her and her lovely, freshly laid eggs on another post somewhere which, I'm sorry to say, two weeks later does not look so lovely at all. This was her clutch the day she finished ovipositing:

You'll notice she definitely has one of the "banana" eggs you described. At this point, only the one in the middle still looks healthy. Most of the others are green and furry -- "duds," I guess.

I'm no expert, but from what I've read and discussed with others much more knowledgeable than me, small clutch sizes, irregularly shaped eggs, and a high percentage of duds/slugs is typical of clutches laid by young - especially undersized - females.

I don't know exactly why this happens (and I don't know that there's been any carefully controlled studies to pinpoint causality), but I imagine it's a combinatorial effect, probably the result of small size/low body weight, inadequate calcium reserves, inexperience, and a host of other factors, some of which we probably don't even recognize.

In summary though, yes, I too have observed the "banana egg phenomenon" in a young breeder. Not sure exactly why it happens, but I'd love to know if anyone has any insight.

I have some thoughts regarding egg shape and species correlation.

First I am not expert on Hondurans or any species of snake for that matter, but my limited experience has shown that different species have different looking eggs.

For example:

I’m trying to list these in order from spherical to more oblong....

Corns: look very spherical
Graybands: a little more elongated than corns
Cal Kings: what I would call an average looking egg, somewhere right in the middle between Corns and Arizona Mt. Kings in shape.
Arizona Kings: Very Long / oblong (similar to the pics you posted above)

Now when you look at "Honduran" eggs, they all seem to be a tad different and all over the map in morphology....I wonder why this occurs?

If I could be as bold and make a few blanket statements for argument sake:

Hypos seem to be smaller in size, have smaller clutches and the eggs are more oblong and larger in size (more oblong like a Mt. King egg).

Amels or Hondos with Amel blood, seem to be larger in size, have larger clutches and the eggs are smaller in size.

I haven’t had much experience with multiple hets or even “normals” so again my experience is very limited.

It just causes me to question the purity of what we call “Hondurans” in this hobby (or business for some). Not that it would cause me great heartburn to know that Hondurans are really some random mix of Central American Milks...at the end of the day...they are just amazing looking snakes.

I’m sure others have much more information on this...but that is just my random thought for now.

-Rusty

Hi Rusty,

We have not observed any correlation between color morph and clutch size or egg shape.

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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

>>> "Not that it would cause me great heartburn to know that Hondurans are really some random mix of Central American Milks"

Actually,....you hit it right on the head!,...that is EXACTLY what so-called "Hondurans" are in our hobby, a random mix of Central American Milks!..LOL!

Ever since "day one" when milks were first imported, they where collected from here, exported from there, and maybe looked a little more like this instead of that, etc...

Since the Latin American milks can many times be tough to distinguish, and even impossible to distinguish depending on circumstances of exact locality, possible intergrades and such even to the most "trained" eye,....and over the years, several forms have been a big mixed genepool of several ssp genetic lineage.

The first anerythristic imported by Dave Doherty, then bred, then went on to Brian Barczyk who started breeding more,..had a huge amount of stuarti in their lineage,....no question about that, Then you have to figure exactly what the original one was bred to to make the hets and all,...could have been any one of several ssp. to be quite honest.

Then you have the good ol' so-called albino "Honduran", that was VERY likely to actually be polyzona(shrug) from Germany.

Then one has to figure in all the animals that were around well before THESE animals came into play, and were getting unknowingly intergraded to each other on a yearly basis.

Let's not forget abnorma, oligozona, in there also from time to time!..LOL!

So the absolute bottom line is, there are only a COUPLE of people(one or two) that I know of in this entire country that have pure forms of hondurensis.............all the others that we all have(including me)are nothing more than a big genepool of mixed lineage between ALL of the Central American Milks....Hondurensis, polyzona, abnorma, oligozona, stuarti. That is just a fact that cannot be reversed.

I can't say I've ever noticed a size correlation with the morphs, as much as individuals, and their size. Smaller females will have very long eggs to compensate for the normal egg diameter, so the hatchling basically can still hatch out at a farly good size.

take care buddy!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

To state it a more accurate way than I did before,...most all the "Hondurans" today are at least a combination of two or more of the Latin American subspecies, not "necessarily" a combination of every single one, but the fact is they are indeed a mix of a certain percentage to some degree, it's as simple as that. I'm sure somewhere, there could also be some that ARE a combination of every single one too, as to exactly WHAT percentage is anyone's guess,.....same with the ones I have, or anyone else has....I couldn't say, and neither could anybody else!..LOL!

The "hobby" Hondurans have become their own entity from all the mixed lineage over the years, and do have a fairly distictive look to them as well, but technically, they just aren't a pure form of hondurensis,...that's all. They are what they are,..no more,....no less!

later Rusty!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

a Hondurabnormazona?!?! hah!

Jerry Kruse

Hi Doug,

Much of this is conjecture. Unless a DNA analysis is done, these are not facts. We are familiar with the orignins of the different color morphs and the possibilty of natural intergrades in the wild. I would also agree that mistakes could have been made with identification, but again this is conjecture.
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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

All current evidence suggests that once morphological and genetic studies are published, it will be shown that "hondurensis" and numerous other Central American forms aren't actually different enough to warrent subspecific designation. If my emmory serves me, they'll likely be sunk into polyzona (it has priority). The same thing is going to happen with North American and Mexican forms.

Very interesting Cole!,....as they say,..."the saga continues!"..LOL!

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

This is very interesting!! I have had the same problems with some first timers.

I have a huge Anery female that this is her third year to be breed. The last 2 year she was huge and I could feel the eggs and all, but all she did was reabsorbed them. This year she laid 6 eggs and the are all misshappen. of the 6, 3 have veins and one might make it. The other 2 were bad.

I used my nice clean male anery and he also was used with a het anery female and she laid 8 eggs all good. So I only used him for just these 2 females. This is the Het Anery's first clutch.

I have had the same thing happen with other females, and I can't figure out why some go and others don't. I have a Het Tangerine that her first clutch she made scrambled eggs with her clutch of 7 eggs. Now she lays good clutches.
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Thomas Sierra