Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There have been some threads lately on pattern morphs and genetics regarding the inheritance by the offspring. The female pictured below was purchased by me in the mid to late 1970's as a yearling. Sorry about the picture quality as these are digital captures from 35 mm slides and the color is extremely distorted. The blotch pattern on her was a beautiful greenish-tan color and she was one of the most impressively patterned burmese I have seen. I bred her in 1980 or 1981 and she produced 34 eggs, with 33 hatching using maternal incubation. A male from the clutch that was held back, was bred to this female several years later. Not one of these offspring showed any hint of the females pattern. I found this interesting and disappointing, and just shows an example of an aberrant pattern that was apparently not inheritable.

Kelly

Kelly, check this one out I recently sold. It came from Viet Nam....TC

Tom, that striped Burm is gorgeous. One of the nicest burms I ever saw. Then I again, I might be biased since it's in one of my cages. It's awesome. Feeds like a champ and not so much as a hiss since it arrived. I can not thank you enough.
I like this snake so much, I almost think it can boost me into the 'big time' when it's old enough to breed. There's just gotta be good stuff coming from this animal.
Thanks again,
VinnyButch

Tom,
Very unusual pattern for a wild caught or farmed. Extremely unlikely that it was environmentally induced, and highly likely that it is genetic. Thanks,

Kelly

Thats what I think as well Kelly. Well, Vinnie prove it out and you have GREAT POTENTIAL for all kinds of new stuff.......TC

Hey Kelly!
That is a dandy pattern.

I wish I knew more about the "molecular composition(?)" or whatever it is that actually controls and/or affects the patterns of snakes. I've got a few things I'd like to throw out here because this is a discussion that I could really sink my teeth into.

You didn't say antyhing about the pattern of the male she produced, the one you bred back to her. I'm sure it was the closest match of the clutch, but how close was it to her's?

"...an example of an aberrant pattern that was apparently not inheritable."

If I don't share my presumptions now I'll most likely forget about 'em.

If the male's pattern wasn't pretty close to the same as the female's I'm thinking in terms of it possibly being "het" for the pattern.

I can't help but feel that it's possible for nearly all patterns to be reproduced but I know with the different morphs that some take quite a bit of mixing & matching, trial & error.

Another thing that comes to mind is - I've seen people say that incubating temps can affect patterns. With all due respect to, and not meaning to personally doubt, the people I've heard that from, I still have a hard time coming to grips with it. There's probably something in or about the process that I haven't heard about, yet, that could open my eyes. If I'm not mistaken I believe it's high temperatures that can affect the pattern, and high temps also cause kinks and other deformities.

With that in mind I kinda wanted to experiment with this year's clutch. However, I kinda chickened out. I might get further into this later on but will stop here for now because I don't want to get too far off on any one direction at the moment.

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I was wondering the same thing.How did the male look.I would agree with the statement about hets,But in this case i can not.My reason for that is Kelly stated the male bred back to original pattern was her own offspring.Meaning that if the pattern would have been simple recessive the male would have been a 100% het already.I have heard of improper incubation temperatures causing patern anomolies.But its not just too high of temps too low can cause the same thing.I have heard of this causing striping and abberant patterns that are not inheritable.But i do believe that with selective breeding we can produce nicer looking pythons.Reason im saying pythons is because this isnt only a burmese forum. This forum is used for ceylonese,burmese,and indian pythons alike.I personally only keep burmese pythons,but eventually plan to get into the others later on as i can afford to do so.With my burmese i only have 2 right now.But my normal i picked because she was bright in color.I dont care for the really dark colored snakes.Some of which you can barely make out their patern they are so dark.But all snakes are like finger prints no two are the same.selective breeding gives you more attractive and healthier offspring.But no two are identical.Even albinos for example they are all white and yellow.But some have more contrast than others.Some have the pink heads like mine some dont.It all depends on what mother nature throws at you.Thats what makes breeding so much fun for me.You never know what your going to get til it comes out.And of course im my own worst enemy i want to keep all of them.But you realize you cant do that and the thing is pick the ones that appeal to you and breed those.A snake that appeals to you might not appeal to another person,but thats how i get the snakes i want.Is through selective breeding
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kevin
36 pythons and boas and 4 lizards

Ha! We both failed to ask what the pattern of the orignal male was like, too.

I didn't mean that I was thinking patterns were exactly like the het process. I ran head-on into the brick wall you pointed out when I did begin to think along the lines of het. The "...the pattern would have been simple recessive the male would have been a 100% het." is the brick wall I'm talking about. Good point.

"Thats what makes breeding so much fun for me.You never know what your going to get til it comes out."

I agree. My breeding pair of Burmese are both normals that are each double het - albino & labyrinth. It's like "pot luck" when they hatch, 4 different types.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

You had some good questions in your post. The male offspring of the female used in the breeding looked completely normal as far as pattern, as did the rest of the litter. None showed any evidence of an aberrant pattern. Likewise, all the offspring from the breeding of these two showed normal patterns as well. Kevin is correct in that the vast majority of striping seen in newborn boids caused by suboptimal environmental conditions is due to incubation or gestation temps that are too low. And, as Kevin pointed out, these types of aberrant patterns are not genetic, but developmental, and therefore not hereditary and cannot be passed on to future offspring.

Kelly

....too deep for my shallow mind. Ha! Ha! But I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

First - Can incubation or gestation temps that are too high cause abnormal patterns as well, or is it just low temps? Also, has anyone bred two silbings of such a clutch to each other in an attempt to reproduce the abnormal pattern? I'd imagine so but if I don't ask the question will always be in my mind. (It's a hillbilly thing.)

I guess, basically, the main question would be "What makes a pattern inheritable?" Wish I knew the name of the cells or molecules (or whatever) that forms patterns, and I wish I knew how they worked. Maybe I should've paid attention in high school biology.

In my last reply I mentioned that I was thinking in terms of "het", but I didn't mean that patterns were exactly the same, having the same requirements & outcome, just somewhat similar. However, if we look at it from the viewpoint that do work off the exact same principle I can see where not all patterns would be inheritable.

What's the difference between a normal Burmese python and a labyrinth Burmese python? Pattern is the only difference I know of. At least, it's the only visible difference I've noticed.

Here's the part that I'm hung up on: If I want to reproduce a pattern a snake has I'm going to search high & low for another snake with as similar of a pattern as I can find. I'm sure Kelly tried to do so. Which reminds me, Kelly, I failed to ask you about the original male, what its pattern was like. I'll go ahead & try to express my point using the assumption that the original male's pattern wasn't a close match to the female's. Now, we all know the pitfalls of assuming, no need to spell it out, 'eh?

If the original male had a very similar pattern as that of the female, could the pattern have been reproduced? Could it have been inheritable? We don't know, do we? (assuming the original male wasn't a close match)

Kelly, you've been breeding and have been around breeding for a heck of a lot longer than me. I don't know; are there very many known cases where two snakes with identical, or very similar, patterns didn't reproduce that pattern?
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Oops! I wasn't finished.

I'll go ahead & stop there for now, though. Besides, my brain's a reelin'.

Later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Not all unusual appearences are inheritable.Many people have paid thousands of dollars for unusual animals just to get nothing.A labyrinth burmese is nothing more than a pattern mutation.You ask what makes a Labyrinth?Well snakes inherit genes from both parents.When a normal snake breeds a Labyrinth snake the offspring inhert two different genes.One normal gene and one labyrinth gene.Which of course are heterogyous.Since these animals carry two different genes they appear normal.A Labyrinth is a animal that has both genes instead of one.And a animal that has two matching genes is called the homogyous form.Thats about as easily as i can break it down in laymans terms.But its not always inheritable.There have been thousands of Labyrinth ball pythons brought into the country.None of which as of yet have proved to be genetic.What causes these unique patterns.Well studies have shown that a snakes pattern and pigment are the last thing to develope.So my theory is this.The pattern is affected by the environment of the egg.What we do is in captivity.There is no way for us to replicate mother nature 100%,no matter how hard we try.So eggs in captivity probably arent developing identically to those in nature.And thats why we see variations in patterns.And its not a genetic appearence. because it was caused by improper development not by a mutating gene.I have several theories as to why ungenetic snakes are found in the wild.I believe it to is caused by improper developement.Ways it could happen.Well could be the snake used a burrow shared by another animal,and the other animal disturbed the nest.Thats one theory that could affect development.Sometimes farmers dig up nest and incubate them in pits.So the babies can be sent over for the pet trade.Burms also incubate their own eggs.So the mother could have been trapped or hunted for food.Which resulted in the eggs being left alone.Several things could happen.These are just some of my theories.Maybe Kelly or one of the other guys has some more info for you.But basically i feel that the other guys are going to be about like me.We dont really know what makes a pattern.Or why patterns are not all inheritable.Im sure if Kelly knew the exact answer he wouldnt have wasted his time.But he did the same thing most of us breeders do.He saw something different and ran with it trying to replicate it.Some times you get lucky sometimes you dont.Thats why i always say never know what your going to get till they are out of the eggs.Also i want to state before anyone decides to make a war out of this.These are just my opinions and theories.I really dont have any evidence to support it.Just giving my two cents.If you have you own opinions feel free to express them.Thats what the forums are about.Reptile hobbyist getting together sharing thoughts and opinions.Some of the breeders and keepers on here have alot more knowledge than myself.Some of them have read books and done studies and have actual facts on these subjects.This is just my theories.Either way this is a good discussion.
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kevin
36 pythons and boas and 4 lizards