Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Please try to understand, I see your view point, in fact, I have seen it for about 40 years.

You see, about forty years ago, I an a few others learned to regularly and consistantly reproduce colubrids in captivity.(the pioneer part)

So in the next few years, the problem of crossing started to become the problem(concern). In this, your very very dated. This has been occurring for a very long time.

There are many parts to this problem. But your concern, that this is ruining the hobby is pretty much unfounded. As it ALREADY has been occuring for such a long time. You keep saying its going to ruin the hobby. Yet, you say it like its not ruined now. Well if its going to ruin it, it already has. That makes your arguement mute.

After decades of seeing this crossing and all such, I have learned one very important thing. And that thing is about humans. Once the ability to breed snakes was gained. There would be no preventing crosses and hybrids. As there are simply to many people doing this, no matter if it was on purpose or accidental. People will do what interests them. And it seems looking at the same old snake not matter how pure or how mutant it is, becomes boring. So they will do what is not boring to them. As dull as that sounds, its very important.

I believe once there is a real need to produce REAL LOCALITY morphs, it will be done. The reason is simple, once those localities are rare, people will want to do it. And will do it. More importantly, thats when it WILL NEED TO BE DONE.

I could keep going on. But all in all, its not about animals, its about collecting and that is all about humans. There are those who collect all manner of things. And some of those things are comparable to snakes. Like coins or stamps. There are old coins and old stamps(pure), and there are limited addition and there are mass produced, and there are new coins and stamps(mutants). Each has a following and a value to collectors. Each has a following of specialized collectors(species) and within that, a following of new coins or stamps and old coins and stamps.

The making of new coins and new stamps did not ruin those hobbies. If the new items do not have some value to the collector, they are ignored until they become rare or show that they had some timely intrinsic beauty, then these non collectables become of great value and our sought out.

The analogy is, we are collectors and each of us has their own reason to collect. Within our group, there is all manner of subgroups that think their group is the best. Within those subgroups, there are squeaky wheels that appear to be very insecure with their own choices as they go overboard voicing why THEY PICK WHAT THEY PICK. THis appears to be you. You are not uncommon, just a squeaky wheel.

Which brings it this post down to you. You have a wonderful right to keep what you want, you have a wonderful right to show the beauty of what you do, you have a wonderful right to express the merits of what you do. But sir, you do not have the right to attack other people over what they do or keep. You attack others because they are different from you. Sir, you know what that is. And yes, WE know what that is.

About what I feel is important, well it has nothing to do with crosses/hybrids or nesting boxes. I feel YOU SIR, should be VERY concerned about keeping those wonderful rights I mentioned above. While your babbling about pure, localities, mutts, etc, your rights to keep anything are being attacked and TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU. If you do not look out, you will not be able to complain about crosses or hybrids or anything to do with keeping snakes, the reason is, it will be illegal.

Lastly I know what your going to say. You will say, I will keep them even if they make this illegal. Hmmmmmmmmm isn't that about the same those that intentionally cross captive animals will say. You see Doug, those folks are just like you. They will do what they want to do, no matter WHAT YOU OR I THINK and very possibly even what the law says.

At this time, its all legal. But if you do not look out, soon it will not be legal to do any of this. That is coming to you soon, in fact, as we speak. So how about fighting the real war, not your personal headcase battle(not even a war, just a little battle). It going to and is, a real war to keep our rights, join up now. Cheers

Recent legislation in the state of Texas is the perfect example to illustrate your point. You would not recognize the west Texas you knew in the 60's, 70', and 80's, or even the one you knew in the 90's.

Everyone should be acutely aware of those events and the current state of affairs not only in Texas but across the nation - because it's coming to a theater near you very soon.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Just out of curiosity, and not that I'm looking to argue, but why when in the gray-banded forum you bleeding heart Dalai Lamas of hybridization don't come out of the woodwork when someone posts a hybrid (which is typically unbeknownst to the person which is THE VERY CORE of this argument/discussion!), or if one does not indicate a locality, or even if the person is unsure of the locality? Where are you then? The FIRST thing out of everyone's keyboards in that forum is "what's the locale" prior to almost ANY permission for further discussion with that person. And THEN there is a historical dissection of who caught the snake, where it was caught, at what time, at what cut, at what GPS position, if the moon was full or not, what the humidity was, and what everyone had for dinner that night before going out. Jesus H. Christ. I have personally been caught in a couple of those storms many months ago, which, actually, made me become MORE appreciative of locale-specific integrities (however my feelings on hybridization has always been negative for as long as I can remember as it's simply not natural. And before you go arguing that how we keep snakes and how we brumate, etc etc etc is not natural either, let's stop right there and acknowledge that this is NOT what we are talking about. That is an entirely new thread that we are ALL guilty of. So let's maintain our focus on the discussion that started the whole shebang, k?). Like I've stated before, you guys really go with the direction of the wind and it causes me to question you gentlemen as well -- with all due respect for your historical efforts and input of course, but it is the recent expressions that concern me and that are becoming "mixed messages". I'd be more than happy to cut/paste past arguments if need be, but I think we should be mature and responsible enough to remember what stances we have taken in the past. Although not as extensive as you gentlemen, I have been deeply involved in herpetoculture (captive care and husbandry, with very minimal pioneering and field work, etc.) since the early 90's and have not waivered in my opinions during this duration of time about ethical issues such as this. Again, this is a discussion about ethics, not law. So please do not switch to other subject matters to try to get another word in egdewise. We will simply have to agree to disagree, and kindly ask for the hybrids to be presented in the APPROPRIATE forum. Please do not take it as an attack, but rather as further clarification of what the matter really is about and that we need to respect each others boundaries.

Jerry Kruse

It doesn't matter how clear it is made the picture will stay blurred. Since it is ruined and there can be no salvation I am going to throw this out there. With that train of thinkingwe should all go on an endangered species hunt. I mean it looks grim for the animals on that list so lets go pop off a few rounds and call it a day. We could get some really cool mounts that only a few people would have. I guess some people would rather just give up. hhmmm now that I think of it we have pretty much ruined the whole darn planet, so are you going to say the heck with and destroy it the rest of the way. I think not because if you did you wouldn't be able to tell anyone how good you are, or how you pioneered kingsnakes.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Frank knows I'm one of the weird wild morph types. All I want is accurate representation. FYI for myself a Martir crossed with Jaurez is not something I would consider keeping.

What I got out of Frank's message was not to condemn others for what they do. I have no problem letting you know what I think, but I stop short of forcing my "religion" on others.

The locality projects I have going should speak volumes about my own personal philosophy, which you are free to agree or disagree with. With the sole exception of the mexican kings, I caught every group of snakes I own from the exact same locality.

At the end of the day, all we have is someone's word. If I ask about a locality on the Gray-band forum you can bet it's because I already know something or have an idea.

I can think of about ten recent examples, but I'll pick out a recent one that was innocent. One poster offered up some XMAS south hills that were not and I recognized it immediately. My question resulted in the original poster doing some research and verifying that they were in fact nine mile north of Sanderson animals. In that scenario no one got their feelings hurt (not always the case) and everyone was better off.

There are other examples where egos are involved and the mistakes or misrepresentations will not be acknowledged for one reason or another (usually $$$).

This is not a pretty side of the hobby and I don't particularly enjoy it, but like Frank I don't really care about the social hierarchy of the forums and I will call BS when I know it and see it.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Your honesty is appreciated Joe, but since you targeted me (yet another means of getting in edgewise -- desperacy IS a pitfall), then i will respond only to futher the point that has been the essence of this discussion rather than justify MY animals. Again, crossing localities is FAR less destructive than making Sinacorns. I was at a local show here in NY this past weekend and came upon someone I know who got into hybridizations years ago. We argued, and argues some more, but we are still colleagus and we agree to disagree. However what I thought at first glance was an exquisite Sinaloan milk turned out to be a 99% phenotypic expression of a Sinaloan milksnake. A slight aberrancy on it's head indicated there was something wrong (moreover, anything on his table should have been questionable to begin with, but i always have renewed hope for everyone....). And yes, luckily he represents his animals honestly 100%. But no matter what there will always be this argument Joe. My general statement is for respect of boundaries and placing hybrids int he appropriate forum -- no more, no less. Others have given up in this argument/discussion, but it is my personality style to not give up on something that I strongly believe in. As a matter of fact, in the years I've been on the forums this is ALL I have had varying amounts of heat within past discussions. Furthermore, the day I learn that the Martir locality is it's own distinct specie (which i believe is currently under consideration) my locality crosses will then become hybrids and i will do what is necessary to cease further production. Again, it's about integrity and ethics.

Jerry Kruse

>>My general statement is for respect of boundaries and placing >>hybrids int he appropriate forum -- no more, no less.

We don't disagree, and I do not hold you in contempt for any Martir x Juarez animals you may have either.

A great deal of my time is being consumed with the part of Frank's post I responded to in the first place (Legislation in Texas). So while it may seem like I have given up on certain things the fact is that I simply don't have time to be as vocal now as I may have been in the past. It takes a lot of time and energy to get involved in those misplaced hybrid photo posts. It's a minor offense IMO and if it doesn't belong the moderator is the one to decide. E-mail them and complain.

I would also point out in regards to your reference to the Gray-band forum, we still are and always have been the most vocal in cases of mistaken or misrepresented ID, right there with the mexicana sub forum.

The only reason I responded to you was to point out that I do not recognize a conflict. While Frank and I may have different breeding philosophies on hybrids, I agree with him 100% that we should not condemn folks that follow either philosophy.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Hi Joe,

I'm not condemning Funky or anyone else for that matter. I don't condemn, but rather try to influence. In this case, it is not empirical data or scientific knowledge, but again, the integrity of a sp/ssp and the overall respect for boundaries. When Frank redirected me and influenced/expanded my knowledge base on the pyromelana discrepancy several weeks ago, I happily accepted that reality and moved on as a more well-rounded herpetoculturist (although his sarcasm is what irked me to no end) that, in turn, would hope to be reciprocal and am eternally appreciative. I have no qualms or gripes with many people at all, however in the general scheme of things I believe man-made hybridizations are a shame. The rationale to that has been explained ad-nauseum. I wish everyone a peaceful and wonderful afternoon.

Jerry Kruse

That we differ in what we do with captive stock, to a point, I have the upmost respect for actual and real locality animals.

We are the same when it comes to herpitology, I am totally and I know you are too, against poluting wild gene pools by releasing animals from other localities. Which is done without a thought even by purist.

In most cases, I am lenient with captivity, only because its inevitable. Its a course that will be taken, to be, for or against is not the point, but how it serves us is. And thats a real arguement that could be discussed.

To me, its more of a biology interest then a captive hobby one. The fact that these animals CAN hybridize successfully, tells us alot about their history and it tells us a lot about their actual relationships. It also tells us how off we are with genus and species names and difinitions. Cheers

>> To me, its more of a biology interest then a captive hobby one. The fact that these animals CAN hybridize successfully, tells us alot about their history and it tells us a lot about their actual relationships. It also tells us how off we are with genus and species names and difinitions. Cheers

I found great value in the breedings you did. I did not reply to Doug's mention of the pyro x alterna x greeri cross because you did that 30 something years ago and I have a slide still hahahaha

I've actually modified my point of view directly because of arguments you presented in our big thayeri debate a while back.
I honestly don't have a problem with hybrids at all. I do have a problem with misrepresentation.

Specifically this applies to the mexican kingsnakes. I've learned to relax about them because what we have is tenth generation pretty captive snakes and as long as it's not an obvious hybrid it's as good as most any other mexicana in the hobby. Looking at the lines represented in the hobby it's clear that if there is something in the wood pile it's been there a while and we are all sharing it hahahahaha

Anyway, I agreed with your original post, maybe it didn't sound that way to you but I had no problem comprehending your message where as some others just want to pick it apart or can't comprehend it in the first place. I'm pretty sure my original reply and maybe one other are the only ones to actually address what you were trying to say.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Yes!
My little brother found a western pond turtle walking through suburban yard. It's habitat had been destroyed by bulldozers to make houses - houses they've stopped building since the housing crash, so the habitat destruction was pointless - now that area is empty lots with streets, street lamps, stop signs, no houses.

They live pretty darn close to the intergrade zone for northern and southern subspecies, and it looked like it could be natural intergrade.

Anyway - it was taken to a nameless scientific / natural history museum in northern california which had the right permits to keep the species.

When I asked what they did with it - they said it was gravid, so they released it in the pond on the premises.

They knew where it came from, and any joker could see that not only was it a vastly different locale - but probably an intergrade with a different subspecies that has obvious phenotype differences in the shell (northern have inguinal plates near groin, southern they are small or absent).

I didn't say anything but it upset me. I understand when the Sacramento river use to flood, some locality mixing would take place - but not like this.

I imagine if she laid her eggs and they survive, in 3 or 4 generations it would take a dna analysis to know - but still, if it was slated for release it should have been in a pond near where it came from.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

This stuff brought up again by FR isn't at all about what it looks like. At the end of the day, those animals you mentioned were still alterna's...pure ALTERNA'S!

This other nonsense is about people CONSTANTLY taking perfectly good identifiable subspecies, and breeding them to one another to make offspring that are totally unrecognizable anymore to go off into the hobby to create many folds more!,...and on and on and on. The argument some of these "scholars" have is ..."it's been done for so long, what's the big deal if we all do it for many many more years....HUH???..WHAT???..LOL! .....true! all that is very very true, but does it HAVE to be done to the rest of the decent stuff just because it was started many years ago?, no,..not really.

I would think it would make FANTASTIC sense to more people to think that keeping species/subspecies separate, and continue to have the identifying characteristics that made them what they are in the first place, morphs? of course!, they are still recognizable. well, as long as a foreign gene wasn't introduced, then back-bred that is to closer resemble the "target" ssp...LOL!

Sure morphs are cool!,...I have a bunch too, but you can look at the animals and immediately see what kind they are,...unlike some of the absolute crap you see out there that could be sold as just about whatever the seller wants it to be!!!!!!

Alterna x greeri x ruthveni x thayeri......what a coveted and sought after mutt combination this would be to you since you like alterna and other pure forms of mexicana complex. This was really what the 3 foot long beef was that FR deemed necessary to bring back up here from the friggin murky depths,.....he just CANNOT STAND it unless he gets the last word in.....RIGHT FRANK!!!

Anyway Joe, I just thought I would explain what this thing is REALLY about that the "pioneer" brought back up to the top here so he could make absolutely certain that EVERYONE could see that he could get the last childish word in on this, and make certain that he kept it ongoing. He should have just stayed watching TV, but I guess he got bored and had to start THIS all over again! He always claims..."listen to the snakes"..."what about the snakes"...."isn't it about the snakes". My entire point IS ABOUT THE SNAKES!!! that's why I think it is important to continue NOT to intentionally cross animals only to have them look undescernable,..then be sold to whoever as WHATEVER and go on to propagate even more in the hobby.

Anyway Joe, I just wanted to help explain a little of what this was actually about, it wasn't about any legitimate point he had regarding it, other than he doesn't like what I say in my posts about his extremely friendly demeanor, and the way he talks down to people, and the way he makes no sense in his arguing my view. nothing more,..nothing less

anyhow, take care, man!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug,
I think Frank's ego can only be a problem if one's own ego lets it.

He's right, all the hybrids are here already and they will be perpetuated no matter what you or I think about them. And you should know what I think about them.

I also think he's right when he says that after the first generation of captive selection you begin the path to captive pedigree.

I'm concerned with things I can change, and I can't change this, so I won't spend time worrying about it. Simple.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I'm not going to worry about it either. But I won't do it just because others do it and don't think anything of it.

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

This stuff brought up again by FR isn't at all about what it looks like. At the end of the day, those animals you mentioned were still alterna's...pure ALTERNA'S!

and my fla.Xnigra crosses are still pure getula. its the EXACT same thing imho,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

not trying to jump in or but heads but if the hybrid in question contains genes from a kingsnake then this is also the proper forum.
adam jeffery
also i agree with you on the fact that too many people get on here and swap their ideals to suit the topic or even to suit who is involved with the topic.
many also have twisted veiws in regards to what is acceptable and what is not when many times the two veiws are one in the same.
my ideals have always been the same and that is im pro hybrid.
i just try not to get in arguements about it anymore because it a lose lose arguement for both sides.
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

No disrespect to you, you can and will believe whatever you like, but breeding two L.g. does not make a hybrid. So breeding a MBK to a calking is not a hybrid, they are BOTH the same species. And as Getulus they are included in the finest restrictions of this forum.

The forum is KINGSNAKES. Which can be taken as all kingsnakes. Of course there are subforums for smaller groups of kingsnakes, but still, This is a kingsnake forum.

Again, the context WAS, a mbk to a cal king. NOT A HYBRID. sorry for yelling, but keep in context. So are you against intersubspecific crosses too?????

Hey I got a question. A miami corn to a ft. lauderdale corn, are they a hybrid??? Then if someday they name those two as different species(that day is coming) will they then be hybrids??? Then what are the offspring when they were the same species. Dang this confuses me. Cheers

>> "A miami corn to a ft. lauderdale corn, are they a hybrid??? Then if someday they name those two as different species(that day is coming) will they then be hybrids???"

*** Without even the slightest hint of me being disrespectful here, this comparison you made is not the same at all. You are going to the opposite end of the spectrum to try to make a comparison with the kings. I see the point you are trying to make though, but I don't ever see those two being considered anything other than what they are,...two different corns from one couny apart, gray "Miami" background or not, or a normal appearing one from Miami or anywhere else. Phenotype differences, yes indeed, but hybrids or intergrades,..certainly not. I lived there for decades, and also know a considerable amount about corns.

See,.....this can be friendly, and I don't mind making an effort to be. It depends on the attitude other's give, as to how I reply.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

First, a quote:

"Again, the context WAS, a mbk to a cal king. NOT A HYBRID. sorry for yelling, but keep in context. So are you against intersubspecific crosses too?????"

So are you telling me that taking, say, a california kingsnake and crossing it with, say, an eastern kingsnake is NOT making a hybrid?

I can certainly fathom the discrepancies of tweezing out issues around purity amongst lower-state eastern kings and, say, Florida kingnsnakes to a certain degree as there is always the realm of intergrade in such situations (i.e.: holbrooki and nigra, splendida and California king, etc). My point is taking two species, and even in this case, two subspecies that are completely disjunct from eachother and crossing them (such as my aforementioned example) -- that is what I can not fold on. Intergrade zones yes, I see that. BUT, let's go back to eastern kings.
Take the northern-most locality of eastern kingsnake, which i believe would be something along the lines of Burlington county in the NJ Pine Barrens (and if I'm off by a county, my apologies -- I'd stand corrected). These come into contact with NO other kingsnakes, and I would argue that this extreme northern population of eastern kings should NOT be bred intentionally to a Florida king JUST BECAUSE it's an eastern and they intergrade anyway down in the southern states. Jersey easterns have uniqueness to them in comparisons to more southern populations. This may very well be starting a whole new thread given my statement, but why not work to maintain, AGAIN, the integrity of clear and concise sp/ssp/localities within a sp/ssp if we can work to make that happen.

Again, this is my stance. We manipulate these animals in captivity often more than what should be done. Mankind has weilded biology/science like a nuclear bomb (let me not start on cloning and ill-directed stem cell research -- I may go back into solitary....). If we are afforded the chance to maintain the integrity of what natural selection has given us, then why not. Of COURSE we will then have a discussion about selective/line breeding to further modify a "prettier", more aesthetic-looking specimen and then replicate the process in order to get a more "desirable" phenotypic expression. But again, it takes away from the BIG PICTURE in maintaining specific/sub-specific purity to the very best of our abilities. I just don't see how some can agree on taking two different species (Sinaloan milk x cornsnake), or even two distinct subspecies (agalma x multicincta), and say there's nothing wrong with that. Where's the natural intergrade zones for this? Correct, THERE IS NONE. I have to give much credit to my friend and confidante, Shannon. Over the last couple weeks he has toiled in making sure that he pairs up his locality californiae to the T. It's efforts like this that will ultimately make up for the all-too-common laziness that affect many of us. The zoos are doing it -- AND??? Does that mean we should Peter Piper along? Again, it's ETHICS. I'm a huge believer in them, but i'm not going to call for a million-herp-march to stop anyone's practice or sway anyone's philosophy. But what I do care about are the younger generations that will think it's okay to cross Sinaloan milks and corn snakes. Again, NO INTERGRADE ZONE. So when sinaloae and guttata suddenly sprout legs and decide to "hook up" on their own, or some geological catastrope places Okeetee smack dab in the middle of Mehico, tghen i will have nothing to say BECAUSE there will then be a natural intergrade zone. I hope I am being completely transparent.

Big hugs all around by the way, and DMong is in the middle!

Jerry Kruse

PS -- my first experience with keeping distinct species separate was when i was about 10 years old. It's a short story, so please bear with me. I grew up in the San Fernando valley in Los Angeles. My best friend at that time, Scott, had THE coolest dad in the world (at least i thought so at the time, lol). His dad was Russ Smith, curator of reptiles at the Los Angeles Zoo (and still is to this day -- Russ, if you're reading this....HI!!!). Anyway, he kept several snakes in his garage. Some of which were a baby Dumeril's boa (now mind you this is circa 1983/84), another kind of boa, and several colubrids that i don't recall at the moment. I loved the Dumeril's, and upon placing that snake into the cage with the other boa (which i believed to be a baby S. American form), he quickly corrected me in that both snakes were different and that their cages were set up to meet their different captive conditions, etc, and thus they required to remain as such. NOW, whether or not he was just being anal-retentive or whatever, he gave me a first "lesson", if you will, in snakes not just "all being snakes", but that there was at least a modicum of difference that i didn't quite understand back then. But it seemed to make sense even back then, and it is clearer than ever now. Thanks for reading, and I bid you all a peaceful rest this evening.

"Again, this is a discussion about ethics, not law. So please do not switch to other subject matters to try to get another word in egdewise."

Since you stated it as such I think I'm going to wade in here. In the context of keeping and propagating pet snake I don't think that doing hybrids is either ethically or morally wrong. Misrepresenting them is wrong but that is another issue. About 50% of my collection (my favorite 50% actually) is locality animals. The other is generic stock or some locality crosses for which I'm directly responsible but I don't see the conflict. If I want to keep pure or locality lines I just have to be very more careful than with generic lines. That choice is mine and it gives me no right to judge others who might do differently to be ethically or morally challenged. Some might feel that way but that doesn't make the feeling valid.

I think a point that many of us often miss is that we are in the pet trade. We'd like to think we're all about preservation but it isn't true; perhaps from the standpoint that we reduce market collecting pressure we may be but it ends about there. Buying, breeding selling trading cb snakes is no more about preservation of wild populations than keeping beagles is about protecting wild wolves.

Tony, you're my homie, so i will not argue with you too much big guy. Locality crosses are the least of the discussion. It's all about the vagrant, full-out crossing of two species or subspecies. Grrrr. But you're right, folks will do what they want. I'd like to think that there is some modicum of ethics/integrity involved Tony, only because it is not natural for Sinaloan milks and corn snakes to mate. Let me send you a cheesecake and we'll chat over some coffee.

Jerry Kruse
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Jerry Kruse

"It's all in the reflexes" -- Jack Burton

I know my position disappoints a lot of people but I simple don’t see the conflict between hybrids crosses and more pure of classic forms. I see this issue as one of personal preference not morality or ethics. Anyway can we pass on the coffee and cheese cake and do some beers. After all:

“Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Ben Franklin

......some folks think you'll forget what's in each shoebox in your reptile room and get 'em all mixed up.

If you DO ever forget what's in your shoeboxes, then you need a cataloging system or you just have too many snakes.

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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

and thus comes a close to my input on this marathon thread. But I DID just get a wave of nausea after perusing the classifieds and looking at several Imperial Pueblans (campbelli x banana californiae). Looking forward to hangin' witcha at Howie's.
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Jerry Kruse

"It's all in the reflexes" -- Jack Burton

Been out with some viruses on the computer but I gotta jump in again! I said previously, I am not a hybrid guy, but what it all boils down to is an individuals rights. This all started with Funky's post on an mbk/cal "cross". Where's the beef when it comes to goini/brooks' crosses that are the rage? I don't get it, most people on this forum are all for a peanutbutter/jelly but you put an mbk to a cali and it's war? WTF? What's the difference? I posted a series of pics at the end of the last flame thread showing naturally occurring splendida, intergrades, and holbrooki all found in the exact same place and got no response. I have all three in the collection, but want to keep the 3 "lines" pure. No one will buy the intergrades because they aren't pretty, but they are the most interesting of the three to me. Why are they what they are? That's what gets me. I completely understand a persons' right to disagree with something, but when it "pushes" the rights of others, or comes that close, then I have to say WTF! It all comes down to our care of the animals in our charge, and i would bet that Funky gives his animals as much care, if not more, than the rest of us. Joe and frank are right about this being paramount, dark days are ahead for us all, and if we aren't ready, the rights we are rambling about will be taken, or at least try to be taken from under our noses. This is what gets me hopping about the whole thing, we all do the same thing, just differently. I urge you all to go and form state HCU chapters and band together for the war that is coming, ohdamn, while we were discussing this BS it came to Texas just now, check the herp law forum. Put away the pettiness for now, hybridize or purifize, lol, but look to the horizon and see what's coming down the pipeline.
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Todd Hughes

This is the king forum, but even though my position is well known, I think the Ultra allele in corns may be part of Dmoug's position.

I don't know the full history of the gene, all I've read on it has been regurgitated several times and intentional or not, regurgitated info changes.

But from what I gather, there is good reason to suspect that the Ultra allele in corns may have originated from a cross with a rat snake - either a WC hybrid or an intentional hybrid.

Snakes with the ultra allele have been bred with other corn snakes and sold as cornsnakes for so many generations that looking at a snake that carries the ultra allele - or doesn't but is descendant from one that does - there is absolutely no visual indication of any hybrid ancestry.

To some, this is indication that contaminated lines are resulting in an increasing number of undocumented technical hybrids in the hobby and could result in few corns being pure as ultra is crossed into everything and offspring, including normals from the projects that do not carry the gene, are sold and spread as normal corn snakes.

That's the fear.

I don't think it matters - gene flow across species happens in the wild, and a few generations later you can't tell.

I bet within 50 miles of FR's DOR there have been Cal Kings collected that have a small percentage of MBK ancestry sold as pure Cal King and bred into the hobby gene pool, and MBKs collected that have a small percentage of Cal King ancestry sold as MBK and bred into the hobby gene pool.

If purity is your thing, then stick to locality. You can keep a locality pure regardless of what gene flow comes into the locality naturally. Locality intergrades are still pure locality.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

that is a very nice well thougtout response!!
i think i get confused by people spuewing the word "pure" out so much because their is no way of knowing if any snake is pure.
the standard is set because a sample is sitting in a jar that has been scalated and studied but what if that sample was an integrade?
if you buy a snake that looks splendida and you breed it to a splendida and then the babies look splendida guess what its considered splendida.
now if you breed a hondo with a polyzona and the babies look like milksnakes what do you get hondos ...lol
adam
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

couldnt have said it any better myself,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Well this is where I totally agree, if you want locality pure, then catch two and do not ever breed anything into them. Except other individuals you know come from the same locality.

At this time, there is no organization that verfies such a thing, so you either have to take someones word or catch your own. Yes, its buyer beware. But isn't that common with most everything humans do. I do not think that phrase was coined for our hobby. Cheers

If you remember the Albino Goini history I brought to this forum a few years ago it started with a pair of Kings caught under the same board, the female was gravid and from her clutch came an albino.

I posted many pics of generations that led to the first ones sold to a few of my friends. That was not good enough for some of these forum experts, and they refused to accept the history.

Even when you catch them yourself, there may very well be someone who will make it their crusade to convince others the snakes are not what you say they are.

The funniest thing of all is some people on here seem to think this forum speaks for the entire world or keepers yet even on the day this forum gets the most traffic it is still a tiny fraction of people who work with snakes.

I have said this before.... so what...if every one of us agrees on something kind of controversial on this forum then people reading our dribble should take it as fact? Fat chance....

The whole business end of snakes seems to be one big butt kissing popularity contest. Replies like "I totally agree! Great post!"..... and sure there's nothing wrong with chosing a side and being firm in your beliefs but how many people will get rid of their snakes if years down the road they find out they've been working with Hybrids when they were completely anti hybrid and bashing others for working with them? Not many....I just don't see it happening. Matter of fact I know some people who "specialize" in a certain snake have heard pretty reliable information stating they have been breeding hybrids for years, and still do, yet they bash hybrids and crosses every chance they get! I see some exceptions with Boas, Chondros and Alterna but for the most part you're kidding yourself if you think you really know what you have in your collections. Some King breeders absolutely do know as they have stuck to thier guns for many many years but most of them can only tell you what they know about their lines which is not much.

And in closing let me tell the "be like me!" people, your constant whining about how others should care for their animals and telling people what they should work with can be influential in making people do exactly what you hate, and that is make more hybrids. If DNA testing ever becomes commonplace and affordable for snakes to check their status on purity this hobby will be turned inside out. Many preachers will probably look like fools and that should be pretty freakin funny!

For Brooksi in general we have to ask ourselves during what period in time were the majority of first names associated with breeding Brooksi collecting them? When did those guys collect their stock? Then did they stray from the locale or was it less experienced hobbyists that started that? The bottom line is that was probably quite some time ago and even the guys who kind of started it all most likley do not work with them anymore and do not know who to go to for their stock. That is how it seems to me.... I have asked a billion questions to guys I waited years to meet in person and most have no interest in what was, it is all about what's hot now. People think this is all about Hybrids and Crosses.....do the purists really know what becomes of their precious snakes after they're shipped off to their customers? What if one of their pair escapes or dies and they have something similar to breed to the remaining aninmal? My money says that is the end of that...
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

>> The bottom line is that was probably quite some time ago and
>> even the guys who kind of started it all most likley do not
>> work with them anymore and do not know who to go to for their
>> stock.

Yes. When it was revealed to me that the brooksi I liked so much but could never afford back in the 80s were probably Love Line brooksi, I e-mailed Bill and Kathy and asked if they knew of anyone still working with that line. The response I got was that most of the people they knew who were into brooksi when they got out are themselves now out, and they didn't know of anyone who had their line anymore.

I bet though that as the morphs pick up interest in brooksi, non morph brooksi like those will start to appear again and be easier to find. I think Bluerosy even posted some that he produced just be crossing morph lines, demonstrating the genes are still there.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I myself want non morph Southern Pines and Brooksi, I have been trying to find some for quite some time but as you can see how some people demand history, and the ones I found did not come with any so I passed.
It is hard enough to deal with people and morphs. I do have a nice pair of het Hypos that throw very nice normals which are from a cross of the Loves and Bells stock. I may keep all those this year. For now those possible hets are the closest I can come to a regular old school Brooksi.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

"If purity is your thing, then stick to locality. You can keep a locality pure regardless of what gene flow comes into the locality naturally. Locality intergrades are still pure locality."

I've been staying out of this frey but man I got to say you nailed it there. Well said.

"Locality intergrades are still pure locality."
haha....unless you live in FL!
I have two amel cornsnakes from my neighborhood...
..and I never had amel corns until I found those two!
Should they still be called "locality pure"??!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Point taken but the mess that is FL doesn't really apply everywhere or have we become that cynical? If so I need a new hobby. Thinking about breeding beagles. Technically, they are pure wolf you know!

Yeah I hear ya but it's damn hard to argue that a "pure bred" dog is better than any mutt out there!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

In many cases purebred dogs are not better.

Some friends of my parents train companion dogs for the handicapped. They are currently using F1 crosses between Shepard and Lab because even with all the DNA testing etc. that dog breeders can do now, they are finding that the line crosses are less likely to develop health problems as they age.

Given the incredible cost that goes into a companion dog, it is very expensive to retire one from service and replace it with another.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

That is what I said...mutts are way better.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I've got a couple of questions for you, FR.

You state:

"There are many parts to this problem. But your concern, that this is ruining the hobby is pretty much unfounded. As it ALREADY has been occuring for such a long time. You keep saying its going to ruin the hobby. Yet, you say it like its not ruined now. Well if its going to ruin it, it already has. That makes your arguement mute."

That's simply not true. There are people who've line bred "pure" snakes like Okeetee Corns which haven't been hybridized in captivity. There are other snakes that fall into this category as well, but I'll use Okeetee Corns as my example. Your statement above is false, because the hobby is not ruined for those who work with Okeetees. The same could be said for a number of other snakes. So no, the arguement isn't "mute" (which isn't the appropriate word to use here).

You also stated:

"The making of new coins and new stamps did not ruin those hobbies."

As you are well aware, the making of coins and stamps does not forever ruin the genetic makeup of an animal that took many, many years to evolve. I therefore believe your analogy is "mute."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Tim

That is a big 10-4 Tim!
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Tim, what you are not understanding is that YES, even okeetee's have been hybridized, inbred, outbred and every possible combination of the above. BUT the difference is that the DEMAND for the "original" look has remained. That demand will keep some lines true, and selectively bred other locales COULD eventually be identical to Okeetee's. Key words, SELECTIVELY BRED(by and for humans). NOTHING about that is "natural".
Now I know most states regulate keeping endemnic species. I am in Mass, and I really like eastern milks....All I have to do is breed ONE non-locality/different ssp into the line to make all my future animals LEGAL right?? Theoretically yes, but when the rubber meets the road its the OPINION of a human(likely with less species ID training than US)at the DNR what is a eastern milk......because THATS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. While I can argue in court with documentation that keeping impure lines makes my snakes LEGAL, they have long ago been euthanized because thats what they do......If they want to take away our right to keep animals it will happen regardless of what is right. If a country like ours doesnt recognize the COMMERCIALTAX) implications of such a move we are all in a bad way and living in the wrong country.

Jeff,

I'm curious to know what's been hybridized with Okeetees to improve upon what they look like. The way I see it the only way you could make better Okeetees is to selectively breed them to each other. To hybridize them would dillute their look and therefore make them less valuable.

If the demand for the original look is there, the best way to get that original look is to keep them pure (not hybridize). I understand that there's talk of locality, but I'm strictly speaking about hybridization here (crossing genera or species).

About states regulating local species: Here in Ohio, a hybrid, cross, intergrade, etc. with an Ohio herp is regulated as if the animal is a "pure" Ohio herp. So that reasoning doesn't have any relevance in my state. In addition, Frank was talking about hybridization happening 40 years ago - most state regulations are fairly recent.

This whole business that hybridization is OK because "they" are going to take away our "rights" to keep herps is using scare tactics to justify hybridization, and if that's what you have to resort to, then your arguements don't have much substance and you're just trying to frighten people into switching to your point of view (think G.W. Bush).

Tim

>>This whole business that hybridization is OK because "they" are going to take away our "rights" to keep herps is using scare tactics to justify hybridization, and if that's what you have to resort to, then your arguements don't have much substance and you're just trying to frighten people into switching to your point of view (think G.W. Bush).

That's not what I read at all. What I read said worry less about hybrids and worry more about your rights to keep what you want, otherwise you are living in the wrong country (America, up until recently the land of the free).
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

np

So what was being hybridized with Okeetee Corns?

Tim

Okeetee is a SC "phase", hi black borders and attractive. But when corns are easily bred and morphs turn up...someone breeds a albino x okeetee, produces hets, and selectively breeds the best hets to make REVERSE okeetees(there might be some pure albinos out there.....but impossible to tell the difference after a generation. Same thing happens a bunch more times to a bunch more corns/rats/and other stuff. But the overiding factor is DEMAND. Nothing has been created that has taken our minds off "the original" locale. These can now be produced not only by original line breedings but by back crosses to the outcrossed hybrids. Its not like you need to know the difference. All this could have happened 5-6 GENERATIONS ago, so asking a breeder doesnt matter either.
There used to be a large locality group of milk breeders and they towed their company lines to hold their prices high....before the internet, before pictures, where you had to buy a snake sight unseen. Things like that are so beyond the scope of imagination now....but it wasnt that long ago. Anyways, we as a community came to the conclusion that beyond f2 locality is MOOT....No one has really challenged that line of thinking.
But dont believe me, go to the historical forums and look up those discussions. No sense in bringing it all up again for one guy...

I believe there is a standard in agriculture - IE if an outcrossed mutt cattle is bred back to a particular parent breed for enough generations, it then legally becomes that breed.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Outcrossed to a albino to produce hets, selectively bred back to produce albinos....these arent locality but why bother splitting hairs because they DO LOOK LIKE locality.

.

.

LOL -- just trying to get my feeling across.

Jerry

i did not say it was ruined, or is being ruined. You would have to talk to Dmoug about that, reread what I said.

I personally think the hobby is the strongest its ever been. Cheers

It's DMong Frink!
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

My apologies - I spelled it incorrectly too.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

No problem..LOL!,.......I'm not a horrible guy, and neither are you,.......at the end of all the arguing here, everyone will go on to do what they want to do anyway. I understand that. I respect you personally way more than you might think, for several reasons. For a few other's it's not the case at all.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

hmmmmmm don't you need a period after D to capitalize the M???

And if you do not laugh, there is something seriously wrong with you. Cheers

That would be correct!..hahaha!

but you also used a "u" instead of an "n"....LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I "copied and pasted" your exact words and responded to them.

Cheers!

Tim

>>Please try to understand, I see your view point, in fact, I have seen it for about 40 years.
>>
>> You see, about forty years ago, I an a few others learned to regularly and consistantly reproduce colubrids in captivity.(the pioneer part)
>>
>> So in the next few years, the problem of crossing started to become the problem(concern). In this, your very very dated. This has been occurring for a very long time.
>>
>> There are many parts to this problem. But your concern, that this is ruining the hobby is pretty much unfounded. As it ALREADY has been occuring for such a long time. You keep saying its going to ruin the hobby. Yet, you say it like its not ruined now. Well if its going to ruin it, it already has. That makes your arguement mute.
>>
>> After decades of seeing this crossing and all such, I have learned one very important thing. And that thing is about humans. Once the ability to breed snakes was gained. There would be no preventing crosses and hybrids. As there are simply to many people doing this, no matter if it was on purpose or accidental. People will do what interests them. And it seems looking at the same old snake not matter how pure or how mutant it is, becomes boring. So they will do what is not boring to them. As dull as that sounds, its very important.
>>
>> I believe once there is a real need to produce REAL LOCALITY morphs, it will be done. The reason is simple, once those localities are rare, people will want to do it. And will do it. More importantly, thats when it WILL NEED TO BE DONE.
>>
>> I could keep going on. But all in all, its not about animals, its about collecting and that is all about humans. There are those who collect all manner of things. And some of those things are comparable to snakes. Like coins or stamps. There are old coins and old stamps(pure), and there are limited addition and there are mass produced, and there are new coins and stamps(mutants). Each has a following and a value to collectors. Each has a following of specialized collectors(species) and within that, a following of new coins or stamps and old coins and stamps.
>>
>> The making of new coins and new stamps did not ruin those hobbies. If the new items do not have some value to the collector, they are ignored until they become rare or show that they had some timely intrinsic beauty, then these non collectables become of great value and our sought out.
>>
>> The analogy is, we are collectors and each of us has their own reason to collect. Within our group, there is all manner of subgroups that think their group is the best. Within those subgroups, there are squeaky wheels that appear to be very insecure with their own choices as they go overboard voicing why THEY PICK WHAT THEY PICK. THis appears to be you. You are not uncommon, just a squeaky wheel.
>>
>> Which brings it this post down to you. You have a wonderful right to keep what you want, you have a wonderful right to show the beauty of what you do, you have a wonderful right to express the merits of what you do. But sir, you do not have the right to attack other people over what they do or keep. You attack others because they are different from you. Sir, you know what that is. And yes, WE know what that is.
>>
>> About what I feel is important, well it has nothing to do with crosses/hybrids or nesting boxes. I feel YOU SIR, should be VERY concerned about keeping those wonderful rights I mentioned above. While your babbling about pure, localities, mutts, etc, your rights to keep anything are being attacked and TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU. If you do not look out, you will not be able to complain about crosses or hybrids or anything to do with keeping snakes, the reason is, it will be illegal.
>>
>> Lastly I know what your going to say. You will say, I will keep them even if they make this illegal. Hmmmmmmmmm isn't that about the same those that intentionally cross captive animals will say. You see Doug, those folks are just like you. They will do what they want to do, no matter WHAT YOU OR I THINK and very possibly even what the law says.
>>
>> At this time, its all legal. But if you do not look out, soon it will not be legal to do any of this. That is coming to you soon, in fact, as we speak. So how about fighting the real war, not your personal headcase battle(not even a war, just a little battle). It going to and is, a real war to keep our rights, join up now. Cheers

Some serious PWNAGE!! Great read FR.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Is a Dog a Wolf or is a Dog a Dog
Is a Wolf a Dog or is a Dog a wolf
Is a Mutt a Dog or is a Mutt a Wolf

How bout a lap poodle in Beverly Hills

.

People should stop wondering why I drink, and start wondering why I don't drink more. By the way I drink locality specific beer, scotch, tequila, and Jack daniels, among others.But I will occasionally drink that accursed hybrid of scotches, Chivas.

"The proof is in the bottle."or something like that)

CHEERS! Next time we cut out the brew and get to the good stuff. Hopefully Tony D will join us. How's the eastern production coming along captain???
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Jerry Kruse

"It's all in the reflexes" -- Jack Burton

22 Outerbanks Kings up and 22 Outerbanks Kings sold. 30 eastern Kings up and 24 Eastern Kings sold. I would say , to answer your question, pretty good. Catch up to ya soon.

52 snakes up and 46 sold...that's pretty good. You never cease to amaze me, man. you ought to hold a lecture on snake/turtle friday night about your marketing secrets. keep it up and all you will need to bring to daytona is a table cloth and a "sold out" sign, lol.

btw, how are those red head cousins doing? mine are probably closing in on 3.5' and they have started eating crawler rats- the size below small. feeding time is starting to get scary,lol. If they could bark I would think they were rottweillers. however I wouldn't trade them for anything, except for more of the same.

how many more days til grand opening day???

daveb
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in the light, you will find the road...

Like I said Dave, I think I will set up a lemonade stand at my tables. Imagine that, spending all that money travelling down to daytona, getting 2 tables for $600, the food,drink, hotel, drink, gas and drink, and I may make 20 or 30 bucks vending lemonade. Wait a second, no food allowed in the center except for licensed vendors. Heck, maybe I'll sell my display cases.
The big marketing secret behind those sales was a simple ad WITHOUT any pics that Outerbanks and Eastern Kings were coming soon. That's all she took. I think the "other white meats" of the getula complex are much more in demand than any of us even suspect.

Howie had an 80 percent off sale if you were either military, Senior Citizen, Gay, Strait, Bi, male or female.. Am I missing anything?
Great season Howie. Wow, your OBX & Easterns were gobbled up fast. You didn't have Ralph & myself trying to get first dibbs this year, or grab your holdbacks LOL. I'll get some updated photos of my Va.beach pair soon.
Steve

You guys were certainly on the right track getting into Easterns and Outerbanks. They are obviously in very high demand, and I'm glad you are striking while the fire is hot. If I knew you wanted dibs this year I would have been happy to hold over some. Sorry bout that.

Oh gee!!! I wish I could wade into the fray but I feel like such a hypocrite. I favor keeping locales straight but I have a pair of Hondos, two pairs of Reverse Okeetee Corns, a pair of Creamsicle Corns, a pair of Goldust Motley Corns and a male BrooksiXEastern King. What's a Hypocrite to do??????

Shalom,

Pat

Let me start off by saying that I am new to all this snake stuff. I don't even own a snake and am interested in purchasing a kingsnake only because as a child, some years ago, my father bought me a california king and i thought it was so cool. I do know enough that I want to start out with at least a philosophy and goal in mind before I purchase my first specimen. I'm not the type to run to my local reptile store but instead would rather buy from a dedicated independant breeder who can share with me their wealth of knowledge after the purchase and possibly work with them to accomplish a common goal in keeping snakes. I know I am going to be slammed but in my world of little knowledge, I see a passionate minority who want to keep bloodlines true to the best of their knowledge. I see them as being closer to those who believe acquiring snakes from the wild wrong due to depriving mother nature of her chlidren. or maybe they want to preserve the species once man has destroyed there habitat for possible reintroduction? In any case, that passionate minority should be happy that the mass of snake enthusiasts' attention is steered away from the wild types, therefore decreasing the chances of overharvesting. I myself would like to purchase captive bred 'wild' types from a personal breeder and breed those before possibly getting into the cross breeds. So if anyone can help me find a reputable breeder of mexican kingsnakes just message me.
Thanks

There is no discrimination here. You get slammed no matter what color, creed, or side of the fence you sit on

Seriously, there are not many wild type mexican kings in the hobby, most have been bred for generations. You could search for folks breeding "earth toned" thayeri, which are probably the closest to wild type mexican kings you will find.

Unless you meant Mexican Black Kings, in which case there would be a few more breeders to choose from.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

That's okay Pat, I got your back, with these! 3-5 more days!

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Todd Hughes

It does not matter what You or I think about it. IT ALREADY happened and is happening, and there is nothing you or I can do about it. Zoos are even active in hybridization.

Let me mention something that happened a very long time ago. There was an IHS meeting in OK city. There was a discussion panel on crosses(something new at the time)

Joesph Collins was the moderator. To make a long story short, a bunch of anti cross people stood up and said their piece. I was the only one invited to support crosses. hmmmmmmm I was bushwacked. Anyway, After a few folks said their piece, the Moderator stopped the discussion. Then he explained the REAL problem. In his opinion, the problem was with animals of unknown origin. For an example, a zoo would breed Waglers pit vipers. When they perished or they preserved them, they would list them as a species with a "local" The problem was, in many or most cases, they had no real data on the locals of both sexes. They sort of picked one and went with it. In fact, most came for dealers with unknown origin. He considered these animals crosses. And he considered these animals a problem, he did so because in his words, he could tell what a pyro/ mex mex was, but he could not tell what offspring from animals from different parts of their range were. These offspring were indeed mutts but appeared very normal.

The point I am making is, you consider the animals we are talking about crosses. Yet science considers all of them crosses unless they came from the exact same locality. I consider them crosses if they do not come from the exact same colony within a local. So my interpitation of crosses is the most exacting. IF they did not come from the same colony, then they are indeed crosses.

So yes, I am totally against crosses.

But what is happening in our hobby has nothing to do with crosses or hybrids. ITs simply a hobby. You are very welcome to keep what you want. If you have doubts about an individual snake, then do not buy it. Its all that simple.

The other day I was reading an American Naturalists mag.(or something like that) and there was an articule on a wild caught canebrake/atrox cross. You should read it. It listed the characteristics and such that they determined how they supported that is WAS a Hybrid. At the end of the articule they listed a whole bunch of other large rattlesnake crosses(all natural occurring)

They did go on a limb and say, it could possibly be occurring because much of the habitat is now neutral, and several species are occurring in one area, therefore they cross. You know, manmade habitat, like farming areas and such. It went on to say, that without the restrictions that make these species different, their behavior will soon allow them to cross.

The past couple of years, my partner and I have noted several rattlesnake hybrids in nature. Only the ones we found were all from natural habitat, not disturbed habitat.

You see fellas, this is a far more important conversation about crosses and hybrids, then was some person or many many people are doing in their snake rooms.

The truth is, people HAVE and will make crosses. In fact, Zoos are now heavy into crossing all manner of large animals. WHy you ask???? because they can is about the only answer.

So yes, your very welcome to like what you like. But again, you cannot tell others or me what to do. Thats were I draw the line. Cheers