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New DHL

crittersnrocks Sep 03, 2003 07:55 AM

I have gotten my first HL, rather unexpectedly. That is not the way I usually go about things, but I was at the National Reptile Breeders Expo in Daytona in mid August and fell in love with a gorgeous little DHL. My vet, (John Rossi, who specializes in herps and has written a number of books about snakes), was at the show and advised me that they could be hard to feed. I talked to the guy who was selling them and he assured me that this one was already eating very well and ate crickets and mealworms as well as ants. I have several other dessert dwelling lizards and have extra ceramic heat emitters, basking lights, 8.0 UV lights, etc available, so I felt pretty comfortable getting him and playing catch up on the information.

He is 2.5" from snout to vent and 4.5" from snout to tail tip. He is definitely male, but I have no idea how old he is. The vendor did not raise him from a hatchling, so he did not have an age on him. When I got him, he appeared very well nourished. His limbs, hips and tail all appeared "well meated". His eyes were bright and clear and there was no sign of any illness.

The first night, while I was still at the hotel, he wandered around on the bed for quite a while and ate a wax worm and three meal worms. He was very calm, so much so in fact that I named him Placido Domingo (I purchased him on a Sunday....lol.) After I brought him home, I made him a 10 gallon tank habitat (with the intention to bump him up to a 20 long within a few months) with a play sand substrate. He has an 8.0 UV tube on during the day as well as a 100 watt basking lamp. Both of these are turned off at night.

When he first got home, I had to find a place to order ants from and get them in (it took just a little over a week to complete that and have them in hand.) In the mean time, I offered him small crickets and mealworms. He did not eat any of the mealworms, but he did eat a cricket or two, nothing more. Once the ants were in (I got harvesters from AntsAlive), I put 3 in with him to see how he would react and how quickly he would eat them. Basically, he didn't. After a few hours, I removed them.

The next day, I put one in and he ate it within an hour or two, so I put in one more. I had to remove that one several hours later. He is now eating 3-5 ants a day, but he is looking thin. The meatyness of his limbs and tail base are gone and his hip bones are beginning to show. I am worried. I force fed him two wax worms today, which he didn't particularly enjoy. For that matter, neither did I, but I felt he really needed some nutrition more than he was getting. That and I have no clue how to force feed ants. The wax worms are maleable enough to manage.

The other issue that concerns me is water. He doesn't appear to drink out of the shallow water dish. I mist his body daily, but maintain the substrate as dry sand. I have tried the dripping water on his snout technique, but have never seen him take any of it.

I have read back through as much of the archives as I can, but haven't found what I am looking for as to what I might be able to do beyond this point. And I am not sure how the hibernation pattern will be effected here in Florida where it is still 80+ daily.

So, can anyone give me any clue as to what his age might be, what I should expect as far as hibernation behaviour and how concerned I should be about the food/water issues and how I might best solve them?

I was kicking myself for even getting him without having all of my information up front, and then I realized that he probably wasn't really better off where he was when I got him. It was late in the show and he had been locked up in a very small tupperware on a paper towel for two days with no clue as to what might happen to him after that.

Your help would REALLY be appreciated!

Karen

Replies (9)

Inv3ctiv3 Sep 03, 2003 05:48 PM

Your feeding him wax worms and mealworms seem they could be a problem, I have heard that feeding them meal/wax worms is not recomended. They need ants, plain and simple no way to get around it. If you don't feel you can handle it then I would recomend you hand it over to someone that can and do not just release it. I have one DHL right now and he has eaten nothing but ants and I intend for it to stay that way. Some HLs can eat up to 80-100 ants a day, others 10-30.
- Jim

Inv3ctiv3 Sep 03, 2003 05:50 PM

I am not sure on the legality of this but Lester could let us know, if you honestly do not think you can take care of him I would be happy to take him from you so he can live with my DHL. If not just make sure he gets ants.
- Jim

Les4toads Sep 03, 2003 07:06 PM

Hello Jim. There is no legal problem with Desert Horned Lizards. They are legal in the pet trade. I would still check with you local Fish and Game folks just to be sure. Lester G. Milroy III

Inv3ctiv3 Sep 03, 2003 07:16 PM

Oh I know there is nothing illegal about DHL's but I just didn't know about private shipping. I have a DHL right now. And got him from a great place out of WI.
- Jim

crittersnrocks Sep 04, 2003 05:38 AM

I understand what you are saying, but please re read the post. He HAS ants. He is not EATING them. He didn't really voluntarily eat the wax worms, but I sure as heck wasn't going to just do nothing and let him starve.

I have read a lot of different stuff, on this forum, on the web, etc. There is certainly a mix of opinions. Some recommend mixing in meal worms and crickets with the ants, some don't. I don't find any difinitive answer. However, I would certainly not just release him into the wild and I find the suggestion that I might be that much of a yutz a tad insulting. As I said in my post, I have quite an assortment of herps AND a herp specialized veterinarian, so I am not the kind of person who just blindly stumbles into a situation and doesn't care what is good for the animal in question.

If you have any suggestions on how to make him eat the ants, which was the question I asked, please feel free to enlighten me. I didn't ask WHAT he needed to eat, I asked for suggestions on how to make him eat it.

Karen

Inv3ctiv3 Sep 04, 2003 09:20 AM

And as I said that you feeding him meal/wax worms could be the problem why he was not eating the ants. They should not ever really be fed crickets or meal/wax worms, seeing as they do not have the nutrition that the ants have that the HL needs. Another problem could be your heating set up, it should be about 100 at the basking side of the cage and around 70-80 on the other end as a retreat from the heat. How do you offer him water? Spray or bowl? And I am not saying you did this but the person that sold you the HL could have hardly ever fed it ants and pretty much only fed the HL crickets and meal/wax worms and now the HL does not want to eat anything else which will lead to death. All I can think is to dump about 10 in the cage and leave the room (they sometime won't eat with people watching since one of their defenses is to not move so you can't see them). If nothing else you could try force feeding him ants not those wax worms.
Thanks
- Jim

Jeff Judd Sep 04, 2003 09:28 AM

Hi Karen,
You will get many different opinions on this forum, many of which I don't agree with. I go by what long term suuccessful phrynosoma keepers recomend(Baur and Montannuci as well as other personl contacts) They all feed a variety of insects, crickets as well as mealworms as well as grasshoppers ect.. along with ants and they regularly dust the food with vitamins and minerals(this helps the HL during the transition from wild to captivity). To answer your question in my opinion it sounds like Your Desert Horned Lizard is highly stressed. They sometimes refuse the ants when in this state but can't resist the plump juicy crickets or protein rich mealworms(use only mini mealworms from grubco). Feed him what he will accept. Offer small vitamin and mineral dusted crickets(hindlegs removed) along with ants. In time the HL may adapt to the captive condition and start to accept the ants. Give it time and be persistant, keep offering the ants.Jeff

Inv3ctiv3 Sep 04, 2003 05:22 PM

Here is what lester said about me getting vitamins (I trust him the most because he seems to know the most and has been working with HL's for 16 years) "Why do you need D3 and vitamins? If you are getting ant supplies regularly, you have all essentials for the HLs already. Supplements tend to cause more problems than they "solve." If you feel you must supply vitamins, use a liquid vitamin (Reptosol) in the water and dilute 10x the recommended weekly or every 5th water change. Nothing more nothing less. Lester G. Milroy III" He is saying vitamins do nothing, and yes HLs will occasionally eat crickets and grass hoppers it should not at all be a main part of their diet. They eat ants and always have and always will, there is a post somewhere on this board (I can't find it again) where people say that mealwomrs are just not recomended for HLs. And tempeture could be a huge part of this, they need to be "warmed up" in order to properly digest their food. That or your HL could be sick, but it does definetly sound as if he/she is stressed. It could be your cage set up, lights, anything.
- Jim

Jeff Judd Sep 05, 2003 06:13 AM

You need to expand your sources for information beyond this forum. It is a place of mere opinions. I have never read any published literature proving mealworms, crickets, vitamins or minerals were harmful to HLs. In fact just the opposite has been proven. Richard Montanucci and Bertrand Baur have been keeping, raising, breeding, and studying HLs for over 40 years and have published many papers on their captive care. They have bred p. asio, p.coronatum, p. cornutum, p.douglasi, p. hernandezi, p. platyrhinos, p. solare, p. ditmarsi, p.orbiculare, and p. taurus. They hold the longevity records for most species including one individual they kept alive for 17 years and have bred multiple generations of some species. Their published papers are no joke and should be taken seriously. They fed their horned lizards varied diets including crickets and mealworms and highly recomend using vitamins and minerals regularly. I think Lester has worked mainly with one species p. coronatum. I suggest you read the following articles :

1989 MAINTENANCE AND PROPAGATION OF HORNED LIZARDS (Phrynosoma) IN CAPTIVITY. Montanucci, R R
Bull. Chicago Herp. Soc. 24(12):229-238

1989 The reproduction and growth of phrynosoma ditmarsi in Captivity. Montanucci
Zoo Biology 8 139-149

1983 Breeding captive care and longevity of the short horned lizard. International Zoo yearbook 23 148-156

Bertrand Baur has many published papers but their in German. Check out the book Krotenechsen for many photos of captive bred HLs

1986 LONGEVITY OF HORNED LIZARDS OF THE GENUS Phrynosoma.
Baur, B
Bull. Maryland Herp. Soc. 22(3):149-151

Sherbrooke w.c. Captive p. solare raised without ants or hibernation. Herp Review 18 11-13

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