Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wandering about a recent post about beta-carotine and it's effects on dragons color? Does anyone know if the feeding of beta carrotine would stop increasing the color of the dragons if it was stopped in the dietary supplement or does the color "enhancement" become permanent.
I was going to start feeding squash and possibly soaking my pellets in carrot juice but don't want to offer babies for sale that have a FAKE color.
Personally I will feed my colored dragons this stuff cause I like the higher color. However, if someone else chooses not to feed them that and they're color would decrese I also don't wnat to be considered unethical or a ripoff artist. I meen the genetics in the dragons I have are there, (chris allen redfalme/sandfire X Zillacross/sandfireyellow/pastel)but if there is a way to get them to look even better is it wrong to do so and offer them for sale? Even if the person knows they have had beta carrotine in their diet? I know that several large breeders at a minimum feed thier crickets carrots to achieve the same effect.
Just wanted to get some feedback on what everyone thought about this.
Thanks,
Robert Wood

hmmm I never even new of this...(I am fairly new to the scene)

how affective is this?

soaking the pellets in carrot juice? never thought of that...

does this really work?

-Lou

I have been wondering about this as well, how about this product?
Red Enhancer

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red factor canaries for show/display animals etc, why anyone would want to enchance their pet reptiles or falsly advertise them for that matter is beyond me, feed them the best diet possible and give them the best lighting and housing possible, a happy healthy dragon will show their best colors.
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reiko
photos

So you feel that feeding items that have beta carrotine in their diet would be false advertisement?

Robert

Now remember pink flamingos would not be pink if they were not fed the substance in the other post. I am starting to gutload my crickets with spirulina which can enhance color in other animals (fish, birds ect.) . I wondered about using the canth. stuff in the gutload mix for the crickets. Neckton markets a reptile suppliment with this stuff in it.
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pink flammingos are pink because of their natural diet, their diet changes as the bird grows to maturity and they take on that pink or red color. the actual baby birds are a grey color. im curious as to why you would want to falsly color your dragon red? without the diet you dont get the color and i do beleive that would be false to sell a dragon that gained color in that manner and not tell the buyer, or sell babies representing the parents in that color without telling the buyer that it is not genetic. i guess i just dont see the point in adding such things to a dragons diet.
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reiko
photos

Doesn't the carrots decrease the calcium absorption in beardies?
If you do this and not tell anyone, are you really any better than those pet stores that give babies colored pedialyte to give them the orange color to sell them?

i feel feeding them a coloring product would be. And i am uncertian if feeding them mass amounts of beta keratin would be good for them, there is research as to the fact of yet that diet effects color. If i fed my dragons mass amounts of beta keratin and got a differnt color outcome you can be sure i would be telling my customeers about it, and let them know that no, they will not pass that color on to their babies.
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reiko
photos

I'm not talking about pumping beta carrotine in at extreme levels. But I know that some people feed their crickets carrots and thought that carrot juice soaking for the pellets would be about the same. And a once or twice a week helping of squash as well.
I don't think that if you feed beta carrotine it will "produce" color in beardies only enhance what is there and make it more vibrant. Therefore the color would pass on. But I have no studies to backk that up. Just what I've percieved from listening to people and how they explained it to me.
I'm not talking about getting a normal dragon and pumping it full and selling it for a 300 dollar high orange hatchling. Merely asking if anyone has any info on the effects of the way it colors the dragons up. If it's permanent or if the color recedes in them after the supplimentation is stopped and if it's anyone feels it's ethical to do this.
I did notice after some discussion in the forum on the way pictures are taken alot of people started posting... No soaking, no special lighting, even though some were doing exactly that for awhile. Now it's no beta carrotine supplementing!!? LOL Just a thought.
Doesn't seem to be many posting on this. Must be a grey area.
Thanks for your input!
Robert

i think if ya want some extra color in your orange or red dragons thats fine i do know that CANTHAXANTHIN does have some good antioxidant properties, its the same stuff humans use to "self tan" from the inside (blech). my point is that its fine if someone wants to enhance color but they must be sure to let buyers know, if they are breeders etc, that the color was acheived that way. guess im a natural girl people really want to see a dragon they are buying in its best natural colors, not enhanced by anything. if someone were to feed their babies a diet higher in things such as beta keratin its something one might want to mention to a buyer as i dont think that the color stays and one might be a bit disappointed down the road, i dont think that is has even been proven in dragons that beta keratin in the diet will effect color, i think someone was doing some research on it recently, but i dont have any more info on that.

ah well...

>>I'm not talking about pumping beta carrotine in at extreme levels. But I know that some people feed their crickets carrots and thought that carrot juice soaking for the pellets would be about the same. And a once or twice a week helping of squash as well.
>> I don't think that if you feed beta carrotine it will "produce" color in beardies only enhance what is there and make it more vibrant. Therefore the color would pass on. But I have no studies to backk that up. Just what I've percieved from listening to people and how they explained it to me.
>> I'm not talking about getting a normal dragon and pumping it full and selling it for a 300 dollar high orange hatchling. Merely asking if anyone has any info on the effects of the way it colors the dragons up. If it's permanent or if the color recedes in them after the supplimentation is stopped and if it's anyone feels it's ethical to do this.
>> I did notice after some discussion in the forum on the way pictures are taken alot of people started posting... No soaking, no special lighting, even though some were doing exactly that for awhile. Now it's no beta carrotine supplementing!!? LOL Just a thought.
>> Doesn't seem to be many posting on this. Must be a grey area.
>>Thanks for your input!
>>Robert
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reiko
photos

Yeah I know what you meen. I bought a dragon from someone and it looked realy nice all the time when I got it. However, after a couple weeks or so it faded some unless it was fired up, but I wasn't feeding my crickets carrots like the breeder i bought from. It was somewhat disappointing especially since I sold him before I found out that they were feeding the crickets carrots. Just thought I'd get some input on this. Thanks, Reiko!

Robert

Lighting, heating, substrate, and on and on. Most boil down to stress factors which are bound to happen in contained artificial environments that we so proudly provide.

I do not feed any crickets nor feed carrots to the dragons or feeders so I can not suggest any first hand knowledge. I do know that any enhancements made by dietary are not going to be permanent. It will not change their genetic makeup and will leave as the source is depleted within their systems.

I do not believe it would be ethical one bit to knowingly enhance any dragons which are being used in any part of a sale, being the parents or the babies them selves. Almost every customer wants to see pictures of the parents to get an idea of the genetic makeup of that crossing. If the are being show pics of an enhanced color dragon, they will have no idea of what that makeup would be.

I just think it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Just my thoughts.
Joel R

Yeah, I suppose your right. Never thought of it that way either. If the parents are on the betakeratine it would give the buyer a false representation of the dragons for sale. Guess this was a bad idea but after seeing that orange dragon in the post a few days back it sure seemed like the thing to do! Did you see that guy? WOW!
Guess I should scratch that idea. How did you get your dragons to start eating the pellets? Mine don't seem too interested at all. I haven't been soaking them they are the ones from Zoomed that don't have to be. Or so the bottle says.

Thanks,
Robert Wood

they have beautiful oranges as for color enhancers i dont beleive in it, i have never used anything of the sort for any of my animals and never will. i beleive in husbandry to bring out the best in your animals, diet, living conditions and care, even tho i dont breed my dragons, i just dont feel it would be right, i wouldnt take the stuff myself to change the color in my skin, so i wouldnt do that to my dragons either... but then again, im not into the tanned look
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reiko
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NP

>>NP

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reiko
photos

I have tried a few but have stuck with RepCal.

I do soak them in water and occasionally add PowerAid, or pedialyte. My babies get them from the first feeding so that's all they know. It took my (who are now adults) a while to get going on them. I bought a new Orange GermanGiant from Dachius in Daytona who has taken to them pretty quickly.

I just put a layer of them over the veggies so they have to go through them to get to the greens. Don't think that they won't move them out of the way, if they want the greens first. lol But they do learn to eat them and you will see them go get pellets only.

It has been working great for me & my crew (the dragons) Not a single cricket this year and all fecals have come up clean! (knock on wood)

Joel R

Really I don't need to supplement to get good colors in the babies I have because they are already colorfull at 5 days. There are 5 or so that are full body colored now and many more with red or orange stripes and yellow or just yellow and even a couple with the pastel trait. Just thought man how would they look with some beta keratine....

Roberet

Beta-carotine is a short term color enhancement, so if it stops in their diet, the colors will fade. If we ate about 1lb of carrots a day, after a week or so we would start to color yellow-orange, and sweat it from our hands and feet.
If the animals you are feeding it to are for your own viewing pleasure, then go for it! People feed spirulina to their arrow frogs, etc, to heighten color in them. If you are going to be selling them with beta-carotine heightened colors, I would think it would be ethical to make sure the buyer is aware of this prior to purchase.
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1.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 corn snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
1.2 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

Thanks! I was wandering if it was only short term. I bought a dragon from a person that suplemented and it looked great but when I got it and seemed to fade in color some unless it was fired up however.
Does beta carrotine only enhance orange? Since red and yellow make orange just seems it would also enhance those colors as well.
Thanks,
Robert

This brings up some interesting points, since the colors in the dragons that are desirable are not typically thought of as "natural" then using food to enhance them may be masking the actual genetics. For many tropical fish and some animals you are simply trying to give them a diet that will allow them to express the vivid colors that are present in their natural environment, captive diets can be lacking in the substances that lead to vibrant coloring in the wild. I have seen pictures of dragons in the wild that had some different coloration that could have been due to the local diet. If you used a spirulina to gutload crickets and gained the color enhancing benefits from it then I would say that you should inform a buyer about the special diet neede to attain the colors exhibited in your adults.
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Never thought of it like that.

Robert

the colors in our dragons are natural, in the wild there are red, yellows, oranges depending on where the animal comes from etc, the only one i think that isnt in existance in the wild is white dragons or rather known as "snows"

sure our dragons are bred to attain their colors but these colors do exist in the wild, one of the nicest orange dragons i have ever seen was a picture of a wild dragon in australia, he was nothing short of brilliant and like nothing i have seen.

yes using food to enhance their color would be masking their natural colors. I firmly beleive giving a dragon a good healthy varied diet will allow them to attain their truest and best colors, lighting will also help this emmensely, a happy dragon is a bright dragon.

if someone wants to "spruce" up their pet, fine, nothing i would do but its up to the individual, but as far as breeders and babies, a buyer should know that a color enchancer was used otherwise i feel they would be misrepresenting their dragons as something they are not.
well anyhow.. i ramble

>>This brings up some interesting points, since the colors in the dragons that are desirable are not typically thought of as "natural" then using food to enhance them may be masking the actual genetics. For many tropical fish and some animals you are simply trying to give them a diet that will allow them to express the vivid colors that are present in their natural environment, captive diets can be lacking in the substances that lead to vibrant coloring in the wild. I have seen pictures of dragons in the wild that had some different coloration that could have been due to the local diet. If you used a spirulina to gutload crickets and gained the color enhancing benefits from it then I would say that you should inform a buyer about the special diet neede to attain the colors exhibited in your adults.
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reiko
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Using beta carotene will enhance their colors, but for only a short period of time. Personally, I don't think it is wrong, but you must let the buyer know that you feed carrots or supplement with beta carotene to achieve the color.

I don't believe it is misrepresentation, it is simply a color enhancer. It also depends on how it's done. Squash is recommended for an ideal diet and has beta carotene. Carrots should be less than a staple, but a natural and healthy diet can be "rigged" for maximum color potential. I don't think that a little supplementation of beta carotene to the diet is necessarily any different from using natural foods. However, it must be in moderate amounts in not in excess.

Also, beta carotene should bring out subtle colors, it shouldn't be as dramatic of a difference as everyone is making it sounds. That's my opinion and experience based on other animals.

I frequently gut load my crickets with grated carrots or squash mixed with Fluker's cricket feed. I also grate squash and carrots on top of my beardie's salad. I would say my dragon eats squash or carrots 5 days a week, in relatively small amounts. The bulk of his salad are the greens, such as dandelion, collard, mustard, endive, or escarole. Crickets are fed roughly twice a week.

My dragon has a bright yellow/orange color, yet I don't know the extent that it is influenced by his diet. I feed squash and carrots not for color, but because they have lots of healthy vitamins and moisture. That and he loves to eat them, and often times he will turn his nose at a salad that doesn't have some bright yellow or orange goodies on top. I supplement with rep-cal calcium powder every cricket feeding, occasionally using rep-cal vitamin powder instead.

So far he has shown no adverse signs to this diet as far as I can tell. I've taken him to the vet who has said he is quite healthy, with the exception of some loose stools that we've attributed to parasites (now mostly treated). I've also read that excess beta carotine flushes out of the body easily, avoiding vitamin A toxicity.

Here is a picture of him, Irwin, the 3 year old male Sandfire x Yellow dragon:

What a pretty boy!! He's gorgeous.
I think the person initially starting this thread was concerned with enhancing the color of his dragons=false advertising. I think if an animal is a pet, he's yours, and if he likes carrots and squash AND they have the added benefit of heightening his color, then COOL!
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1.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 corn snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
1.2 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

To the best of my knowledge, the majority of the beta carotene is not in the carrots but in the stem (the green part that sticks up out of the ground). Beta carotene is also related to vitamin A. Vitamin A is not recommended for beardies.

This is what I was told when researching vitamins for reptiles. I have not seen any conclusive evidence to this end, what do you think Cheri?

By the way, if its color you want, just dunk your dragon in cool aid. No long term effects!

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

I need to post some pics so you can see I don't need "cool aid" and I guess you missed the point entirely if that's what you assume. And if you had seen the dragon posted where the guy had been feeding squash to the orange dragon.... you'd understand what I was talking about maybe? I was looking for the post but can't seem to find it. Wow your post made me feel like I needed to defend myself...... Do you have any studies for long term beta carrotine supplementing? Would love to see it. I know of more than one breeder who uses it and they have never spoken of any ill effects to their dragons. Lke I said in an earlier post, I think I'll personally scratch the idea.

Robert

If I remember correctly, beta carotene is a water soluble vitamin so it is not stored in the body, what is not used is flushed out of the system. However, this slightly causes a strain on the liver. I'll have to look it up to confirm it. So basically, you can't get beta carotene poisoning. It in itself does not cause health problems.

Beta Carotene is a form of vitamin A, a fat soluble vitamin. Studies have shown that cartenoids (Beta Carotene being one of them) are not harmful in large quantities unlike vitamin A's other form, retinol. These studies were done on humans however. I would not recommend feeding any food item that contains high amounts of vitamin A as it is not easily expunged (being fat soluble) and can lead to vitamin A toxicity which is characterized by swollen eyes, throat and body as well as lethargy.

Peter

I stand corrected. Beta-carotene is a Vitamin A and is fat soluble. However, excess consumptions of other forms of Vitamin A (retinols) can affect the liver, and carotenoids are much safer. However, moderation is the key.

I guess what it means that beta carotene cannot be absorbed without the consumption of fat. Loading up on vegetables or supplementation does no good if fat isn't consumed at the same time. Moderation is still the key.