Reptile & Amphibian Forums

when are hatchlings usually born????

>>when are hatchlings usually born????
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If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

at least for American alligators. Laying usually occurs in early to mid June with an incubation period of ~63-65 days putting hatching at mid-August.

Bill

Are you quoting this from a book Bill? It kind of sounds like it. I was going by personal experience spanning many years involving breeding and hatching babies. I suppose some regions of wild gators may breed and lay as early as you posted here, but even then it would land the hatching date in mid September as the actual incubation period at 89.5 degrees is closer to 90 days. I have seen them hatch as late as 100 days at lower temps to produce predominately females, and as early as 77 days for males,... but never anything even remotely close to 63 days. The embrios wouldn't be developed enough to process air at that stage. In any event Bill, I have been part of hatching scores of clutches (1 score equalling 20) and never was it that short a period of incubation time. What book are you getting that info from? There are so many still on the shelves that are chock-full of missinformation, it is just appalling.

>>at least for American alligators. Laying usually occurs in early to mid June with an incubation period of ~63-65 days putting hatching at mid-August.
>>
>>Bill
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Gosh Brian, that is such commonly known information I'm surprised it's even being disputed. Then again, I suppose these experts could all be wrong. Those incubation durations at the temps you report should be reported to the scientific community because it may be new information. I could not find references to durations of more than 70 days at the lowest survivable incubation temperatures.

Of course, this is for wild populations. If someone were artificially manipulating the environment, I suppose the season could change.

A partial list of references supporting the information I posted:

Joanen, Ted and McNease, Larry L. Ecology and Physiology of Nesting and Early Developement of the American Alligator. Amer. Zool, 29:987-998(1989)

Joanen, Ted, and McNease, Larry L. Alligator Farming Research in Louisiana, USA Wildlife Management: Crocodiles and Alligators ed Webb

Joanen, Ted. Nesting Ecology of Alligators in Louisiana. Proceedings of the 23rd Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Game and Fish commissioners, 1969

Magnasson, William Earnst, Vliet, Kent A., Pooly, A.C., Whitaker, Rommulus. Reproduction. Crocodiles and Alligators ed Ross, 1989

Neill, Wilfred T. The Last of the Ruling Reptiles, 1971

Mcllhenny E.A. The Alligator's Life History

Lane, Thomas J., D.V.M., and King, Wayne. Alligator Production in Florida. University of Florida Cooperative Extension Service http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM035

Campbell, George. Jaws Too!, 1985

instead of 70. Apparently the plus sign does not interpret.

I have always kept very accurate and specific records. I tend to not quote from books due to the fact that they are so often wrong. But when a clutch takes 98 days to incubate at a certain temperature, that's what it takes. Whether it is in the wild or in a lab incubator, temps are temps, and periods of time are periods of time. You really should try actually breeding them one year and you may be really surprised at what you learn. It's really eye opening. Happy herping.

>>Gosh Brian, that is such commonly known information I'm surprised it's even being disputed. Then again, I suppose these experts could all be wrong. Those incubation durations at the temps you report should be reported to the scientific community because it may be new information. I could not find references to durations of more than 70 days at the lowest survivable incubation temperatures.
>>
>>Of course, this is for wild populations. If someone were artificially manipulating the environment, I suppose the season could change.
>>
>>A partial list of references supporting the information I posted:
>>
>>Joanen, Ted and McNease, Larry L. Ecology and Physiology of Nesting and Early Developement of the American Alligator. Amer. Zool, 29:987-998(1989)
>>
>>Joanen, Ted, and McNease, Larry L. Alligator Farming Research in Louisiana, USA Wildlife Management: Crocodiles and Alligators ed Webb
>>
>>Joanen, Ted. Nesting Ecology of Alligators in Louisiana. Proceedings of the 23rd Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Game and Fish commissioners, 1969
>>
>>Magnasson, William Earnst, Vliet, Kent A., Pooly, A.C., Whitaker, Rommulus. Reproduction. Crocodiles and Alligators ed Ross, 1989
>>
>>Neill, Wilfred T. The Last of the Ruling Reptiles, 1971
>>
>>Mcllhenny E.A. The Alligator's Life History
>>
>>Lane, Thomas J., D.V.M., and King, Wayne. Alligator Production in Florida. University of Florida Cooperative Extension Service http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM035
>>
>>Campbell, George. Jaws Too!, 1985
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

I agree with Bill here with the caveat that I do see 'late' clutches with some regularity. I often have wondered about the survivability ratio of the later hatchlings.

I don't think I've ever seen a clutch hatch post September though.

Agreed. I wasn't saying that clutches don't hatch in Sept. because of natural statistical variation following a bell curve. I think many clutches are laid in July, but fewer and fewer as time passes.

Bill

Statistical variation following a bell curve? Gimme a break. Bill, no disrespect intended, but why don't you put the books down and wait for people to post that have actually bred and incubated the eggs of alligators. We actually learn a thing or two when doing these insignificant little hands-on things. Bell curves notwithstanding.

>>Agreed. I wasn't saying that clutches don't hatch in Sept. because of natural statistical variation following a bell curve. I think many clutches are laid in July, but fewer and fewer as time passes.
>>
>>Bill
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

....... We actually learn a thing or two when doing these insignificant little hands-on things. Bell curves notwithstanding.......

Oh my, how wonderfully condescending that is. lol

You asked me to site references, so I did.... it took me all of 10 minutes to find too.

Now I ask you - show me references in literature that support your claims.

Your contention that one has to "do" something to understand it is actually quite funny. Lets see how many things in real life that you believe are true, but have not actually proven yourself. No, lets not - I don't think this database would be large enough to hold such a list.

If one person says something, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. If two people say it, then I think there may be something to it. If many people who are considered experts in the field say something, then I will likely believe what they say.

Brian, you are but one person here, no disrespect intended.

Bill

Judging by your reaction here I would guess that I have upset you. It was really not my intention. I was merely stating, and I stand by what I state, that I have incubated and hatched scores of clutches of gators. The average incubation period greatly exceeded the 63 to 65 day period that you quoted from a book or books. The longest period of incubation was in 1992 when a clutch was laid on August 4th and hatched on November 10th for a total of 98 days. The shortest was a clutch that took 67 days at 92 to 94 degrees. I keep records on this stuff. It is my life. I don't get up each day and go to some desk job. I wake up and care for reptiles. My whole entire life revolves around the care and well being of my reptiles and the pursuit of knowledge on them. It always has. Books are often full of crap. There are still a handful of "reptile books" at my local library that state the alligators don't live past 30 years old. I have several that are 53 and in great shape. The same books have a wealth of misinformation on the animals' reproduction too. One will say that alligators have 25 to 100 eggs. Another says 40 to 80 and yet another will say 15 to 30. That truth of the matter is that 9 times out of ten, the number is between 35 and 40 (another little something that I know from experience). Dispute what I post if you truly feel the need to do so, but all I was saying was that I have actually done this stuff and I know what I'm talking about.

>>....... We actually learn a thing or two when doing these insignificant little hands-on things. Bell curves notwithstanding.......
>>
>>Oh my, how wonderfully condescending that is. lol
>>
>>You asked me to site references, so I did.... it took me all of 10 minutes to find too.
>>
>>Now I ask you - show me references in literature that support your claims.
>>
>>Your contention that one has to "do" something to understand it is actually quite funny. Lets see how many things in real life that you believe are true, but have not actually proven yourself. No, lets not - I don't think this database would be large enough to hold such a list.
>>
>>If one person says something, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. If two people say it, then I think there may be something to it. If many people who are considered experts in the field say something, then I will likely believe what they say.
>>
>>Brian, you are but one person here, no disrespect intended.
>>
>>Bill
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

This thread reminds me of the 100% tame gator discussion; if you know what I mean.

Seth

Yes, it really does resemble it, doesn't it? Bill and I disagreed in that one too, and his trusty, agreeable shadow (you) was there too. And that issue, just like this one (coincidence??) involves activity/experience that I have done, and neither of you have. Yes, very similar indeed.

By the way, I still have those particular 100% tame gators if you would like to come by and pet them sometime. Matter of fact, lol, the first 100% tame gator came from a 98 day clutch that hatched Nov 10th! Now doesn't that just fry your noodle?

Happy herping guys.

>>This thread reminds me of the 100% tame gator discussion; if you know what I mean.
>>
>>Seth
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Yes, it really does resemble it, doesn't it? Bill and I disagreed in that one too, and his trusty, agreeable shadow (you) was there too. And that issue, just like this one (coincidence??) involves activity/experience that I have done, and neither of you have. Yes, very similar indeed.

By the way, I still have those particular 100% tame gators if you would like to come by and pet them sometime. Matter of fact, lol, the first 100% tame gator came from a 98 day clutch that hatched Nov 10th! Now doesn't that just fry your noodle?

Happy herping guys.

Brian,
I am not as inexperienced as you seem to think. No real point in arguing about it though. I guess I'll just smile and tell you I am praying for you.(since the first discussion we had actually, and for Bill to by the way.) I just want you to know their are no hard feelings over your well... attitude if you will, and I pray that my Lord and Father will bless you with His wisdom and knowledge; that one day you may know Him as I do.

PS
Seriously, I'm not kidding or being "Religious" as you will probably call it, or anything like that; I really mean it.

Seth

Hey, thanks Seth. That's very kind of you. I am not a born again, but I do have a lot of friends that are, so I understand completely. Take care and happy herping to you.

>>
>>Brian,
>>I am not as inexperienced as you seem to think. No real point in arguing about it though. I guess I'll just smile and tell you I am praying for you.(since the first discussion we had actually, and for Bill to by the way.) I just want you to know their are no hard feelings over your well... attitude if you will, and I pray that my Lord and Father will bless you with His wisdom and knowledge; that one day you may know Him as I do.
>>
>>PS
>> Seriously, I'm not kidding or being "Religious" as you will probably call it, or anything like that; I really mean it.
>>
>>
>>Seth
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Heck no! I'm actually very amused and I thank you for the good humor.

You'll have to excuse me now as I am busy collecting all the research papers and (ugh, dare I say it) books from my library shelves to fuel my bonfire tonight. lol

Bill

Bill, you can quote books until the crocks come home, but it won't change the fact that you have not hatched gators and I have. Don't you see the futility in this endeavor of yours? What part of "I have done this, these are the results of ACTUAL BREEDING", don't you understand? Many times, my friend. Give it up. By you quoting books telling me how it is with hatching gators would be like me reading a space comic book and telling Neil Armstrong how to do a proper moon landing. Get real.

>>Heck no! I'm actually very amused and I thank you for the good humor.
>>
>>You'll have to excuse me now as I am busy collecting all the research papers and (ugh, dare I say it) books from my library shelves to fuel my bonfire tonight. lol
>>
>>Bill
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

.

Actually, I am way too old to be drawn into silly arguments. I just wanted to get it into your thick head that this is something I know and have done a LOT. I am not guessing here. I know this stuff. And for you to tell me in another post that I am but one man and so you won't listen to what I have to say and you go on to quote the written literature of the vast majority reminds me of Galileo and Capurnicus (forgive my spelling, I go by memory). Both of these men, in different parts of the world singularly faced the world and claimed that the world was round. Why, the vast majority, in fact everyone but them thought this was quite funny and cracked open their books and cited writings of a flat earth. One of these men was locked away for the last 16 years of his life by the Catholic church (the law then) for blatant heresy when he would not recant his statements. These statements of something that he knew. Based on the findings of the witchcraft of the day, "science". The uncovering of fact and truth. Well, ever so slowly things changed and by about three centuries ago the ignorance subsided and facts and knowledge made their way to the table. 300 years is a very short time. 4 human lifespans, roughly. We aren't out of the ignorant woods just yet just because we have satellite television and the internet. We still tend to crack books open and and take what is inside as "gospel" (funny comparison, no?) But again, I must tell you, a huge percentage of "fact" in books is not acurate. And the makers of books more often than not borrow information from other books when making their own and thus extend the misinformation. I can't tell you how many times I have read the same words from the 1979 edition of The Audubon Society, Reptile field guide in books published just a few years ago. And those same words were mostly borrowed from books written nearly a century ago when the society was in it's infancy. So you can go ahead and keep looking for, and even finding written literature that disputes what I may post here, but the simple fact of the matter is that I am the one actually doing the hatching. So who is more likely to be accurate?

Now let's put this absurd argument behind us so that the forum can return to a pleasant place, ok? At nearly 40 years old I am really too old to partake in silly bickering like this. Good day to you Bill. And happy herping.

>>.
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Brian,

Dont let Bill raise your blood pressure. Some people are just never satisfied until you put (actual facts) in front of their face instead of some cardboard binding with paper in the middle that has some.....so-called facts on it. There are some books that are very trustworthy as a resource. But the majority have very false information based on their lives in the wild. These people would more than likely believe that the easter bunny was real if it was posted in a so-called non-fiction book. And just in the event that he turns out to be real someone please let me know because I have a 14 ft african rock python that needs his bi-weekly feeding.

Oh, I don't. I hope it hasn't seemed that way. I just get a little taken aback when I post something that I actually experienced or did and someone tells me that I am mistaken. That's all. No harm, no foul.

And I know what you mean about most books. When I was younger I used to take what was written as scripture, but after actually losing animals to advice or information in books, I seriously began to question everything I read and to pursue my own form of knowledge gathering based on hands on experience and observation. I intend to write my own books pretty soon with only fact in them. For the last 22 years I have kept detailed notes, records and journals. When I feel the time is right I will reference these and get busy.

>>Brian,
>>
>> Dont let Bill raise your blood pressure. Some people are just never satisfied until you put (actual facts) in front of their face instead of some cardboard binding with paper in the middle that has some.....so-called facts on it. There are some books that are very trustworthy as a resource. But the majority have very false information based on their lives in the wild. These people would more than likely believe that the easter bunny was real if it was posted in a so-called non-fiction book. And just in the event that he turns out to be real someone please let me know because I have a 14 ft african rock python that needs his bi-weekly feeding.
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

I never, NEVER discount first hand information. I've been in herps long enough to know alot of variances occur. If someone can document the evidence I say well, we should listen. If it's crap it won't be hard to expose.

Alot of crocodilian books DO use each other as reference points so truthfully a piece of misinformation can be passed from book to book. Does that mean the books are wrong...no. But it does mean that I listen to people with first hand info with an open mind. I live among gators both wild and captive. The day to day is alot different than what I read.

CD
The Ultimate Guide to Crocodilians in Captivity

Are you suggesting that I stop citing all my references from my 1956 copy of "There's an Alligator Under Jimmy's Bed"?

Bill

haha, good one.

I'm just trying to understand were the debate is in this discussion.

Brian, if I may ask, were do you live?

Pretty much so. The point that I am trying to make is that there are so many "Professionals" out there who arent really "Professionals". They are morons who plagiarize statements and so called facts from other morons in order to make themselves seem like they themselves are a professional in their field.

I think this is what we have all trying to inform the literature teacher but he thinks he knows all because he read some books. I have read some playboys in my life. I bet you I could make his wife happier than he can. (The books said how). He hasnt figured out that knoone is saying he is wrong. Everyone has had different experience and it should all be shared.

you said:
And just in the event that he turns out to be real someone please let me know because I have a 14 ft african rock python that needs his bi-weekly feeding.

I just want to respond to your post in the same level of maturity and intelligence in which it was posted..............

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........

Ok, I've got it!

"Yeah, well I bet my dad can beat up your dad!"

Oh the blissful anonymity of the internet ....sigh....

Bill (the thickheaded)

im glad you found some humor in the previous posting. Your dad may be able to beat up my dad. But considering that I am 19 with obviously a much more liberated mind than that of your I am going to have to say quite narrow mind that would make my dad about his low 40's. You yourself I would imagine would be in your late 30's or older which would bring your dad into the frail old age of about 60-70. So the likelihood in that would be pretty slim. Any other smartass comments that you would happen to have I would be more than happy to make you look really stupid. Happy herping to you Bill.

im glad you found some humor in the previous posting.

Truth be told, this one is even better!

But considering that I am 19 with obviously a much more liberated mind than that of your I am going to have to say quite narrow mind that would make my dad about his low 40's.

What a wonderfully constructed sentence! Good ol' public education at it's finest.

You yourself I would imagine would be in your late 30's or older which would bring your dad into the frail old age of about 60-70.

You really have no clue

Any other smartass comments that you would happen to have I would be more than happy to make you look really stupid.

Like this time? LOL! Whoever you are, hiding behind that anonymous mask, you aren't even in the same game. The funny thing is, you don't even realize it.

Happy herping

Back atcha

Here we go Mr. Bill Moss the literature teacher. I dont come into forums to perfect my english. I only wish to come and chat with other hobbyists and learn more about Herpetology. Then at the same time we have Mr. Bill Moss (the thickheaded as he wishes to call himself) which probably works in petland coming into the forums berading (probably spelled wrong but please dont take any points off of my spelling test mr. moss) others about some information that they may or may not be incorrect on just because he was reading some national geographics as a teenager. I didnt mean to come in and rotate your testicles on you pal. It's not my fault that you are so sensitive to the point that you are in tears practically if someone doesnt believe every little thing you have to say. I am not a breeder, nor am I big time reptile enthusiast as I am sure you would like to refer to yourself as. I am just trying to learn more about reptiles and is pisses me off when there are people out there like you who like to rain on everyone elses parade because you dont have a life of your own other than to come into forums and ANNOY everyone else. At that final statement I will be the bigger MAN and leave this alone because my early death caused by high blood pressure is not worth the hassle because there are people out there like you who decide that they are god and better than everyone else. Bill enjoy the national geographics and keep learning about your reptiles. Who knows maybe one of these days you might actually know what the hell you are talking about. Happy Herping (back atcha)

I read the thread and debate below, but the first thing I was wondering was which species you were referring to.

I believe they are talking about American Alligators.

Under natural conditions and within the normal range of alligators, nests are laid in June and July and hatch in August or September. That individuals can change this pattern in cativity is well known, not particularly interesting and not relevant to what happens in wild populations. Incubation under appropriate conditions of temperature and moisture is about 65 days. Any self-respecting alligator farmer would be appalled by an incubation period over 70 days as that can only happen when eggs are mistreated. Yes they can still hatch but delayed incubation demonstrates poor husbandry.

As for the accuracy of the printed word, perhaps there are errors in books, but I have encountered at least as much innaccuracy in the spoken word. It is important to me who is talking or writing. In any case I saw several references by Ted Joanen quoted. No one knows more about alligators than Ted and he does not lie in his writing. Any suggestions to the contrary are inaccurate and Ted deserves an apology.

So Bill is right and Brian is not. I don't care what Brian accomplished (if he thinks delayed incubation is an accomplishment)that pattern simply never occurs under natural conditions. Anyone who thinks he can capture complete knowledge simply through breeding and keeping animals is mistaken.

The best method for obtaining knowledge about crocodilians is through field experience, keeping crocs, and reading evferything that has been written about them. Adam Britton exempliffies that. Bill does not have the field experience of a biologist such as Adam but I will tell you all that he knows more about crocodilians than 90% of the croc biologists that I know, and he communicates it wonderfully. Brian you need to read more and get out in the wild looking at gators and crocs more, if you did either you would know that your statements aboput alligator nesting and hatching only pertain to captive animals.

Finally, who am I? Ny name is Frank J. Mazzotti, I am a wildlife biologist at the University of Florida (Aad yes I publish so I guess that makes me a liar also). I have worked on alligators and crocodiles since 1977. I am currently under contract with the Department of Interior to evaluate the effects of Everglades resoration on alligators and crocodiles in South Florida (I am happily putting your tax dollars to work). I have advised farmers and commercial exhibits on keeping crocs, in particular on incubating eggs. I have captured thousands of alligator and crocodiles and followed the fate of hundreds of nests in the wild. I have worked with and advised government agencies and NGO's in Belize, Mexico and Jamaica on the conservation and captive care of crocodilians. So Brian you may know what you know, but for the rest of you he is dead wrong here.

Frank, it seems apparent to me that you have a biased opinion here and have a selective memory to my posts and what I say/said in them. I never once stated that this was how it was "in the wild". I was mainly demonstrating the extremes that the incubation can go to. Furthermore, to state that these conditions can "never occur in the wild" is in my opinion, inaccurate. I think every temperature and humidity condition can and does happen in the wild, regardless of the "normal conditions" often observed by field herpetologists. And to state that "delayed incubation" is "mistreatment" is absurd too. There is a range of temps in nests in the wild and the incubation temps I cite always fell within that range. For whatever reason individual clutches had differing incubation periods. And you can't claim that anything that results in a 100% hatch rate with zero birth defects is anything but successful. Where is the mistreatment? And lastly, I have read about everything there is to be had on the subject. But I have learned over the years (exactly as many years as you) that I learn more from daily interaction with the animals than from reading another's observations of wild specimens. Mainly because there is really only so much that wild specimens do during their lives to survive and multiply. But there is never any end to the different things that captive pet gators do. Same animal, but with different stimuli and lacking the stress of having to live a life of basic survival. Wild gators are completely interesting, don't get me wrong, but there really is no comparison to captive individuals when it comes to amazing idiosyncrasies.

Nice resume`, by the way, but it really wasn't neccesary to try to lend credibility to what you posted. And though your post was well worded and intelligent, a lot was lost in the obviousness of your bias.

Brian you need to read more and get out in the wild looking at gators and crocs more, if you did either you would know that your statements aboput alligator nesting and hatching only pertain to captive animals.
>>
>>Finally, who am I? Ny name is Frank J. Mazzotti, I am a wildlife biologist at the University of Florida (Aad yes I publish so I guess that makes me a liar also). I have worked on alligators and crocodiles since 1977. I am currently under contract with the Department of Interior to evaluate the effects of Everglades resoration on alligators and crocodiles in South Florida (I am happily putting your tax dollars to work). I have advised farmers and commercial exhibits on keeping crocs, in particular on incubating eggs. I have captured thousands of alligator and crocodiles and followed the fate of hundreds of nests in the wild. I have worked with and advised government agencies and NGO's in Belize, Mexico and Jamaica on the conservation and captive care of crocodilians. So Brian you may know what you know, but for the rest of you he is dead wrong here.
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Fascinating argument this thread has created (my only contribution is to say "Chill out folks!". But I'm not sure it's helping the guy who asked the question. Picking my way through the minefield, this is how I'd summarize it.

The date of hatching varies from species to species, and also within a species. Some species are "pulse nesters" - they all nest at once in a large "pulse" of activity (typically less than a month). Other species nest over an extended breeding season, with the latest nests going down 6 to 8 months after the earliest nests in that season.

But that's not all. There's plenty of variation within a species as well. Most species have distributions that cover a range of different climates - eg. temperature, rainfall, humidity and other environmental factors. It's the changes in these factors (eg increasing temperature from winter to spring) that triggers hormonal changes that lead to reproductive behaviour.

And if that's not all, there are individual, genetic differences between animals. Not every individual follows the same pattern.

In captivity, there are often significant differences in reproductive periods compared with wild conditions. This is due to various factors, but mainly because environmental triggers are different in captivity, but there can be other differences - diet is a big one (well fed captives are quite different to wild counterparts). What you see in captivity tells you only a little about what you'll see in the wild, and of course the same is true vice versa.

The best way to answer this question is to look at the pattern in the wild, across different populations, and then bear in mind that captivity will show minor or major differences to this pattern depending on husbandry and raising conditions.

So for alligators you're talking June to July for nesting, hence typically August / early September for hatching in the wild. In captivity, this can vary by several weeks (or even months).

At the other extreme, a species like the Australian saltwater crocodile can begin nesting in October in the wild, or as late as August the following year! That's nearly 10 months apart. However, the peak nesting occurs in January, varying by a few weeks either way depending on the wet season. Hence hatching is normally as early as December, peaking in March / April, tailing off around July / August. Those late nests that DO go down in August have virtually no chance of surviving due to improper incubation conditions. Generally with salties, anything laid after February is most likely to be flooded.

You can find a lot of published information in the literature on typical nesting seasons in the wild for each of the 23 crocodilian species, and this is the best place to start. A lot of these are summarized at crocodilian.com under the species descriptions.

Adam

This covers just about every aspect of what we were talking about,... except the incubation periods. I think that there is more to this that what most books contain, and I think that the 2 month period is so widely accepted that no one looks any further for evidence of longer incubation periods. But how is it that I have ranges from 65 to 98 days, all in acceptable temperature ranges, all with optimum hatch rates? I think this needs to be looked into more deeply, don't you? I will be publishing my findings and data within the next 2 or 3 years. I just need a few more years of solid data before I feel I can show a pattern.

>>Fascinating argument this thread has created (my only contribution is to say "Chill out folks!". But I'm not sure it's helping the guy who asked the question. Picking my way through the minefield, this is how I'd summarize it.
>>
>>The date of hatching varies from species to species, and also within a species. Some species are "pulse nesters" - they all nest at once in a large "pulse" of activity (typically less than a month). Other species nest over an extended breeding season, with the latest nests going down 6 to 8 months after the earliest nests in that season.
>>
>>But that's not all. There's plenty of variation within a species as well. Most species have distributions that cover a range of different climates - eg. temperature, rainfall, humidity and other environmental factors. It's the changes in these factors (eg increasing temperature from winter to spring) that triggers hormonal changes that lead to reproductive behaviour.
>>
>>And if that's not all, there are individual, genetic differences between animals. Not every individual follows the same pattern.
>>
>>In captivity, there are often significant differences in reproductive periods compared with wild conditions. This is due to various factors, but mainly because environmental triggers are different in captivity, but there can be other differences - diet is a big one (well fed captives are quite different to wild counterparts). What you see in captivity tells you only a little about what you'll see in the wild, and of course the same is true vice versa.
>>
>>The best way to answer this question is to look at the pattern in the wild, across different populations, and then bear in mind that captivity will show minor or major differences to this pattern depending on husbandry and raising conditions.
>>
>>So for alligators you're talking June to July for nesting, hence typically August / early September for hatching in the wild. In captivity, this can vary by several weeks (or even months).
>>
>>At the other extreme, a species like the Australian saltwater crocodile can begin nesting in October in the wild, or as late as August the following year! That's nearly 10 months apart. However, the peak nesting occurs in January, varying by a few weeks either way depending on the wet season. Hence hatching is normally as early as December, peaking in March / April, tailing off around July / August. Those late nests that DO go down in August have virtually no chance of surviving due to improper incubation conditions. Generally with salties, anything laid after February is most likely to be flooded.
>>
>>You can find a lot of published information in the literature on typical nesting seasons in the wild for each of the 23 crocodilian species, and this is the best place to start. A lot of these are summarized at crocodilian.com under the species descriptions.
>>
>>Adam
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True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Yes, I should have been more specific about incubation periods, but I was in a rush (as usual!).

There have certainly been a lot of studies looking at the influence of temperature on incubation period. It's pretty clear from these that temperature is the primary factor influencing development rate, and hence incubation period. Humidity can have a lesser but still significant effect (a 10% drop in humidity - which is pretty major - appeared to add an extra 2 weeks to the incubation time of some C. acutus eggs in a recent example).

After 20 plus years we're still monitoring incubation times and temperatures of both captive and wild nests (C. porosus mostly) and there are very few cases where we can't predict hatching date to within 24 to 48 hours based on temperature and embryo age. In exceptional cases there's usually a fairly obvious cause, such as the eggs drying out, the nest flooding, or the nest having been subjected to excessively high temperatures etc.

But there are differences in other species that aren't always easy to explain. For example, whether incubation temperature is constant within narrow boundaries or variable within broader boundaries can be of differing importance between species.

If you're going to publish your observations, you need to explain clearly the accuracy of your incubation environment and the precision of your ability to measure it, from laying to hatching, because this can be a big source of "error" (ie. changes from what you expect!). Crocodilians don't necessarily need such precision themselves, but we do if we want to explain it.

Adam

be sure to get your own "facts" straight!

You have published the following in the last week:
....................................................
Sept 3:
I have seen them hatch as late as 100 days at lower temps to produce predominately females, and as early as 77 days for males,... but never anything even remotely close to 63 days. The embrios wouldn't be developed enough to process air at that stage.

Sept 7:
But how is it that I have ranges from 65 to 98 days
....................................................
but wait - what was my ORIGINAL answer? ~63-65 days. I don't think anything more has to be said about your posted information here, does it Brian?

Your "facts" are more inconsistent than even the worst paid-by-the-word authors and books out there - which, by the way, is not included in my references.

Also, and this is my last post on this issue, the original poster simply asked when they were born. I think most would reasonably infer that the the poster is asking not as much about what the wildest, unproven, unsubstantiated, artificially manipulated claims are (your reply) but rather what is actually taking place (generally) in the field (my reply).

Finally, publish your records in a peer-reviewed journal and prove your findings. When you have done that, I will be the first to jump on board and relay that information the same as I do with people whose work has stood up under scruteny. Until then, it is all hearsay at it's best becuase you have offered *nothing* to substantiate your claims. If you get upset because *I* don't believe your claims (at face value), just wait until you attempt to get the scientific community to buy into them when you provide the same level of proof.

...and by the way, name calling does not become you or add value to an arguement.

Bill (the thickheaded)

You really need to relax a bit and not take all of this so personally.

I don't remember calling you any names, where was that? It's not my style. If I did, I apologize as I must have been grumpy at that time.

Secondly, I really don't care if YOU don't believe me in all this. I realize that your ego tells you that that is my stance in all this, but it isn't. I just don't like being contradicted and possibly being doubted as a whole by other readers. This isn't about you. lol. Get real.

>> If you get upset because *I* don't believe your claims (at face value), just wait until you attempt to get the scientific community to buy into them when you provide the same level of proof.
>>
>>...and by the way, name calling does not become you or add value to an arguement.
>>
>>Bill (the thickheaded)
>>
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.