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I have to thank Rainer and Tony D. for handing this project over to me 3-4 years ago. Initally I was let down with these babies as before they shed they were pretty drab and nothing like the crosses I see the Bells selling. Now that they have shed, I have had a change of heart and I freakin love them!









This one may be a double homozygous, since I am keeping this, and probably all of these I am in no hurry to decide about that or name it just yet. It reminds me of a Thayeri a little. Very cool looking snake in person!





Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I don't think I could sell any of those! awesome snakes!
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Pueblan
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

I just may hold onto all of them because many Brooksi get brighter with age, many Goini seem to fade a lot. Who knows how these will turn out? Time will tell
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Those are ALL awesome!!! I really like the first two.

Those are just too cool!!!!! Way to go!!! The cross of the two locales is awesome!!!!

Pat GC

Hey Pat, wait til you see em in person!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I like them all so much but I think it will be easier to name the best of this small clutch in a few months when we see where their color is heading.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Wow, they sure do look a lot more colorful after that shed! Outstanding clutch! That one looks almost like a pit, it's head is crazy looking. Congrats.

.
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TomsSnakes.com

Welll it isn't straight blaze and it isn't straight hypo. That's for sure.

I'd like people to remember the reason this cross was undertaken, that being to prove or disprove accusations that GC "created" Blaze goini by the hypo brooks gene into goini. As the goini blaze and bypo brooks traits proved to be incompatable this proved to be untrue.

Yeah I remember the reasons... and the "battles"
Haven't heard from one of the main characters here in some time....ever since,huh?
Still, it may be one of my least favorite crosses...
I remember back some time ago subspecific crosses were more frowned upon than straight hybridization. Wonder why?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

"Still, it may be one of my least favorite crosses..."

See I am the exact opposite opinon . I don't even consider than to be a real cross. I beleive these snakes are all the same and co-exist in pockets now seperated.

Look at the Kevin Enge S. GA animals... IF they are true locale then that proves the goini and easterns crossed at one time or another that are part of GA and upper range of FL is an intergrade zone.

Look at edisto Islands, look at small heads , big heads, small s. fl specimens, colors, pattern (seen the mosaics?) all these forms wether DNA or pattern or scale count matches or not it is just theory that taxonmists have. Even THEY change the range maps and recently they discovered that there are no Floridana within 300 miles of the GA border according to kyrscos DNA reports. But I have heard arguement either way for that as well.But that seriosly changes the range maps.

I think we make to much of these snakes that basically exists in within the same life zones. If Florida had high elevation, deserts, chaparrel ect. Then we could look at the basic differences. But florida and s. GA are all the same flat areas with no life zone borders. It all the same to me.

I beleive these snakes have been mixing for years and certain pops have there own look based on what has happened in the last 100 years.

I have been collecting rosy boas from different ranges and hills for many years. So I base a lot of my experince and comparisons to that. Even though the Rosys are the same spp according to spiteri ect. They have been isolated in certain rock outcropping for many years. Some of these rock outcropping have nothing but flat desert for miles inbetween (where you see rocks you will find rosy boas) This causes these populations to have a disticnt look all there own. But with the eastern getula there is nothing seperating them and it is all a mish mash. That is why we have all the controversy. Because there is no real way to say this animal has not bred to that. Geez you can find two florida kings under the same board looking completely different.

Mark, I am not trying to oppose you. Just that the goini x brooks does not offend me at all. They are the same animal to me, personally. But to others it is a fou0pah.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

They are ancient brothers in my opinion. When the seas were a little lower, the coastline of west Florida was a long stretch of white sandy dunes from typical Brooks habitat all the way around the gulf to Mexico. I believe the kingsnakes of those days were probably very light compared to the darker snakes of inland Florida. The present remnants found in some kings in south Dade, around Tampa, and seen in Goini can be recombined through selective breeding to recreate that super light coastal kingsnake. It isn’t creating something new, it is reviving something that had become extinct through loss of habitat.

They are ancient brothers in my opinion. When the seas were a little lower, the coastline of west Florida was a long stretch of white sandy dunes from typical Brooks habitat all the way around the gulf to Mexico

i am not from the school of thought that the earth is a million years old. I belive in a young earth. I am referring to your word "ancient".

Thus I beleive all this changing of spp is far more recent than you suggest. I would bet 200 years ago we would see different kings in all those areas.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

How about some early native Americans, (Timucuan, Tocobago, Tequesta, Apalachee, Arawak, Calusa, Creek, Seminole, etc) were very much into snake keeping and breeding, knowing which snakes were good to have around dwellings for protection from rats and venomous snakes, bringing a few nice pets with them during migrations from extreme south Florida up through Georgia? I think snakes were an important part of their daily lives and regularly traded them in a big tribal gathering in the area now known as Daytona…

Early snake trading. Barrels of Brooks kings

My great great grandfather once got ripped-off by that dude on the far left. The guy claimed his stuff was het for stripe,....but it was later proved that it was due to a fungus on his eggs while incubating.......the hobby/industry hasn't changed much since then!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Well it used to be flat too, and then maybe 200 years ago there was a big bang that made it round.....or maybe not.LOL

Did you know there is a lot more scientific evidence that supports a young earth than what is taught in schools?

If not I can turn you onto a few books. That is if your mind is open to it. Remember we only know what we are taught.

BTW I also beleive in the creationist theory but that has nothing to do with sceintific evidence on a young earth. Except that it does seem to support it.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

I spent like $100K on an education. Sadly there are alot of scientists that, FOR THE RIGHT MONEY, can tell you water isnt wet, the sky isnt blue, and you are wearing womens clothes....but not really interested in their thinking.Sorry Rainer,nothing personal.

Have to agree with you here Jeff- young earth and creationism are pretty much contradicted by ALL empirical data. Wishful thinking isn't the same as science.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Actually it is sad because you guys have no idea and education to speak on this to make any assumptions.

Myself, like many others, have been through school and know what they teach. But not until you look at the other facts can you draw any conclusions.

There is a lot more evidence that suppost a young earth than an old earth. You only know one side of it.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

Rainer, over a beer sometime ok. We dont want a RELIGIOUS arguement here,lol. Jeff

Jeff,
since when is science and young earth a religious conversation? I just said that a young earth supports creationalism.

I can see your mind is to closed . Lets just forget it. If you want the books you can email me.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

If you believe in the Himalaya mountains it is said they are being pushed up by the land mass of India pushing up into Asia at about six centimeters per year. This is a constant shifting of the land masses that began as one big continent (Pangaea). If you back up the movement until all the pieces fit back together you can get some idea of how many years that would take. It would also explain why fossils of the same critters are found in Australia, South Africa and India. Maybe a big comet hitting the other side of earth started the whole thing going much faster than we imagine and earth basically started over after that. It could be a cycle that is repeated every billion and a half years or so. Just depends what you consider “new” or “young” to be. I admit I am too feeble minded to imagine any scenario where that wouldn’t be considered a very long time, though.

I would be legitimately curious as to how crude oil is explained by a young earth. scientific evidence is that it is accumulated from organic matter accumulated over 400 million years ago and it is a finite resource. the only way I can think of explaining it otherwise is that its an abiotic source and replenishable, lol. maybe that is why there is so much pressure to adhere to science...too much money is riding on anyone finding out otherwise.

and some brooks kings!

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in the light, you will find the road...

if the universe is only a few thousand years old, how has the light from objects billions of light years away (the distance light can travel in a year=1 light year) had time to get to earth so we can observe them?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Could be that light is seen by us as coming like the information on an old record. It is really a very long spiral. To jump to the beginning it would be a big shortcut to “skip” across the grooves. Reality might be very short but the explanation as long as we imagine the universe to be. Or it could just be wizards.

..I think I skipped a groove a long time ago.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Hey, I go out with my buddys to cruise chicks on a SUNDAY nite and I come back to my post being blown up!! Hey, We all have a reason to believe in what we do, I believe I will have another beer and watch you guys make fools of yourself,lol. Jeff...ps, dont make me post a pic of that or I will be banned from kingsnake...

Jeff-

That may be my new favorite getula-jeez what a snake!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Physics actually supports the universe starting at the same instant, yet the stars being much older than the earth with their light having taken millions of years to get to us - yet the earth being extremely young.

That doesn't mean it happened that way, but it is not outside the known laws of physics.

I believe it is called white hole cosmology that explains how it could have happened that way.

But the bottom line is that time is relative to a particular frame of reference, as demonstrated by the half life of extremely fast moving particles (they live longer than they should in our frame of reference, but if you do the math - they live exactly how long they should in their frame of reference).
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Actually, particle physics is sort of a hobby of mine-and it's misleading to say physics support this. Even though it's true that, if one could "ride along" on a photon, the trip acrooss the known universe would seem to occur instantaneously, that is not what is seen by the outside observer ("at rest" relative to the photon). All experiments-tracking particles and radiation travelling across the room and across the solar system-show that the speed of light is exact over short OR long (cosmic) distances, and light does indeed take billions of years to travel billions of light years.

The only things that can exceed the sped of light have to do with certain esoteric quantum effects, wherein information about the spin states of entangled particles have been seen to be instantaneously transmitted from one to the other via "quantum tunneling". But the particles themselves can never exceed the speed limit.

"White hole" physics is not accepted by mainstream physicists for a variety of reasons other than the above (not least of which is the fact that it's namesake, a "white hole", has never been observed-despite countless black holes being found).
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

It’s a known fact that Smigeford banglons proceed the terraphotons by approx 10 to the third and ganglerontodons are about the same, so therefore quint particles of subset nanomutoid particles can reverse at least twice the speed of light and produce words right out of the ol rectoid. It happens all the time.

Yeah - I know a white hole has never been observed, and it is impossible AFAIK to put the theory to any kind of scientific test, so it's not a theory in the scientific sense - but the math supposedly supports it, though having a math model that works and evidence that it happened according to the math model are two vastly different things.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Let me make a guess...every one of you posters wore a pocket protector full of pens in high school...LOL
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

No - mine also had a slide rule.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

By the time I was in school, we used Texas Instruments scientific calculators, so we didn't need the extra pens and slide rules!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Funny you should mention that.

I took a refresher course in Calculators at the community college - and before class, I mentioned to the teacher that I had forgotten some of the basic methods of algebra, such as synthetic division, and asked if I could borrow a book that covered that stuff.

Her response - they don't teach that stuff anymore.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

The theory is indeed INTERNALLY consistent.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

That's right. 28 years old. How? Because in another day that's how long I will have been on this earth and there's no way to prove it was here before I was born. How's that for a creation theory?
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The Reticulated Rattler

1.0.0 Great Plains Ratsnake
1.0.0 Corn, Lavender Aztec het for Amel
0.1.0 Black Ratsnake
0.0.1 Texas Rat (tame)
1.0.0 Broad Banded Water Snake, Hypo
1.0.0 Black Bassador Retriever
2.1.0 Godchildren, 1 Evil, 2 possible hets

np
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!
"You do not breed them, they breed themselves. That sorta takes you out of the picture. All you become is a poop scooper and cage cleaner"
Frank Retes

Rainer, I'm afraid with your ideas and breeding history you would be crossing T Rex with my grandmother, and I am kinda against that,lol,,,,,,Joke, in case you didnt get it!

I would never do that to the T-Rex.

Hey if ya can dish it out , then you can take it!
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!
"You do not breed them, they breed themselves. That sorta takes you out of the picture. All you become is a poop scooper and cage cleaner"
Frank Retes

What else is there to say?

and you are wearing womens clothes...

Damn - I thought I turned my webcam off.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

And I've noticed that nobody mentioned it already, but the middle one looks like the patternless goini that Upscale was working toward with a couple years back..same dark backstripe and dark belly. I know nothing about genetics but to me it seems that Rainer may be right on target in his theory. I freaking love the look of them also Tom.
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

I love some of the Goini crosses I have seen at Daytona. Matter of fact I traded a White Wall Speck for a few colubrids with the Bells last year and one in that group was priced at $350, and those snakes were all easy to identify as crosses. You probably know the ones I mean but I will post pics of it later. I think these are going to make awesome babies some day and they should mature into great looking adults.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

...some are pretty cool looking for sure.
I forgot though, what were the parents again?
Blaze goini X hypo brooks? Or was the blaze het for hypo?
How did you get a hypo if not?
I'm confused, but heck, that's easy to do!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I like to refer to those exchanges as lively banter but it did get ugly at times. I think crosses of all types are coming under increasing scrutiny as people start gaining a greater appreciation for more natural and classic forms. This of course coming from a guy how specializes in hypo coastals doesn't mean very much!

Anyway here is a pic of one of last year's goini, which I believe comes from pretty uncorrupted (for lack of better word) lines. Wish I'd kept this one. She looked very similar to the S.E. GA kings that are the rage now days but I really liked her pattern. She was let go so that I could hold back the sibling female in the second picture who just had much more red.

Hey Tom, what generation and who were the parents?? Thanks Chris

The babies came from double hets that were from breeding Blaze to Hypo, Tony and Rainer can tell you exactly what Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Thanks Tom , i have eggs from a gulf coast dh to a Bob&mikes? dh should hatch in a bout a month i will post some pics then L8r Chris

Tom-that last one is amazing. Not usually a brooksi guy, but I love that animal!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Thanks Brad, see you in Daytona???
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I'll be there! At Ron Tremper's tables.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

very nice man,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

YUP! They sure are.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Chuck the snake man from MD used to breed some of his nice MD easterns x goini back around 1990. They were different even then, ALOT more colorful and variable than either ssp. in its pure form. Back then I think the reason why crosses and hybrids were more shunned was because EVERYTHING was still new. Why would you TRY to make anything new when CB was still in its infancy....and you could still be the first to do this or that.
Nowadays everything has already been done and we get bored pretty quick with MOST of the natural-looking forms. Morphs are barely enough, and alot of us are striving for multimorphs--where each one of us can still produce something DIFFERENT. Remember how different we are to have this hobby, its a natural progression.

I love this snake.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

The definition around the head scales kinda reminds me a little of a indigo.....