Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My head is too thick to understand this one.

I have attended this forum for many years, almost from the start.

More and more, the term rescue pops up. I am having a real hard time understanding it. I grew up in the zoo, animal park, Universty systems. There "rescue" meant to take a failing wild animal, return it to health and return it back to nature. Here the term is understandable.

Here lately(actually for a while) the term means, to aquire a monitor(Sav) for free or cheap. It usually is attached with some comment about some very poor petshop. The people who are doing the "rescue" generally have little to no experience with monitors. How can that be a rescue? What are you rescuing it from and to what? Also, if you paid for it, wouldn't that be called a discount, not a rescue?

Also, how does getting an animal for free count as a rescue? Thats merely a good deal.

What I am getting at is, the term "rescue" is an end result, not an intention. For instance, to rescue a drowning person or animal, you take said individual from a place of danger and place them in a safe place. (remember, just an example)

You cannot use the term rescue until the individual is actually rescued. Not taken from the pot and put in the pan. I am not being mean, but, taking an individual from a fast death to a slow death is not a "rescue" Also, being an adoption service is not a rescue, either. That may be, again, from the pot to the pan.

I would think that to provide a responsible rescue service, the person doing the rescuing must have lots of experience with keeping monitors(successful experience). Experience with sick animals and the application of varanid medicine. Or a very good vet or access to one. Have the resources needed to house the individuals and a very good supply of food items.

I would not think a monitor rescuer, would be new or have very little experience, Ask beginer questions or do beginer things. Or have no understanding of husbandry or medicine. Or no ability or understanding to provide good sound housing.

I guess it all has to do with what we individually think is a "rescue". Of course, I think it means to return it successfully back to nature. Or at least, allow a captive to have a life which includes normal life events. Health, growth, soical interaction, reproduction, old age and death are included in life events. There may be more, those are a minimum.

So, to rescue, means to allow life events and that is past tense. It has to happen before you actually complete a rescue.

If you obtained a monitor from a dire situation and it achieved life events, then that is a successful rescue. I think a rescue is indeed a special event, but only after its done.

Please, I do not mean to start a fight or any such thing, I am only after a better understanding then I have now. No offense to anyone and its not about anyone in particular. F

Frank,

I sometimes struggle with the term "rescue", but in most cases it seems appropriate.
Speaking for myself, as someone who performs a free service to provide a refuge for monitors that have been abandoned or neglected I guess I'm one of those "rescue" type people.
Adoption and Placement service may be a better word for it, essentially people come to me usually with a Sav or Nile monitor insisting that they can no longer care for it, usually these folks had no business getting a monitor, or a cat for that matter and I take on the responsibility of tending to the animals medical needs and overall well being.
The point of doing this, is to hopefully provide the animal with a second chance at living a life which allows for monitor life events to occur, and to find individuals who desire to make that happen for the animal as well.
Again, speaking for myself, I am not inexperienced at keeping monitors, although I acknowledge that I need to further my understanding to achieve real long term results. You once defined this as generations of healthy offspring, and I agree with your statement.
For me at least, this form of "rescue service" is not cheap, last year I spent over $4,000 in vet care for the animals that I took in. I do have access to decent vet care for these animals, so I do it for no other reason than it feels good.
This sort of thing is all about emotions really. I do not wish to see these animals suffer, and it was not the animals fault that someone purchased it and caused it deliberate harm by neglecting its physical needs.
I suppose someone could look at this as a means of aquiring free animals, however, by the time these creatures get around to me they are usually in a bad way and thus expensive to restore them back to some degree of health. Often I've had to pay to have them put down they were simply too far gone.
Is any of this a "rescue"?
Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not. For me this is purely an act of compassion because I feel that these animals have no advocates, if any other agency got their hands on them they would simply be destroyed and not quickly either.

I hope in some small way this provided some insight into why people do this. Again I can only speak for myself in these matters.

-Kit

Most of the rescuers here are not as you are doing. They just obtained an animal.

Remember, My post was not about you in particular or at all. But the mass of rescuers that have popped up.

To me is about ignorance or something. Those who claim that really don't understand the full meaning of rescuing, like the things you mentioned.

I do electricial work, but I cannot say I am a electrician. I work on cars, but I am not a mechanic. I wrestled in high school and college, but is everyone that wrestled a wrestler? Some are, but most are people who went out for wrestling. To be a wrestler, you wrestle automaticcailly, its when it comes natural. Not one who has to be told what to do. To be a good wrestler is another question, altogether. Do you see what I mean. Again, is everyone who has a pair of monitors a monitor breeder? or is everyone who bred a monitor a monitor breeder? A monitor breeder is one who continues to breed monitors. The ones that bred them in the past are no longer monitor breeders, but people who had bred monitors.

I guess what I am attempting to get at is, people here need to learn or be taught or simply realize, that all terms have definitions. And terms like "rescue" have definitions. They are past tense, not pre tense. You can attempt to rescue, or attempt to allow breeding. The result is the definition, not the attempt. Thanks F

Frank, I think this is a good topic and someone should really define what a rescue is. I disagree with your definition and feel that any deliverance from a state of obvious neglect or abuse or worse to a situation where, at the VERY LEAST, the basic life conditions are being met can be deemed a rescue. I do not feel that the rescuer has to have overwhelmingly vast knowledge of the life events to make a successful "rescue". But the "rescuer" must have the ambition, ability and dedication to provide the best forever home possible for the rescued. I also feel that it is a success if the animal is brought up to a generally accepted state of good health and given a home where the basic necessities are being met (proper housing, diet and medical care). Of course, anything beyond that basic quality of life is a plus and that is what we all hope for, but just to be able to lead a healthy life is better than dying a slow death from neglect and ignorance. As an example, I have adopted two dogs who were rescued from the pound. Both were due to be destroyed when they were pulled from the shelter by a rescue organization. Both were then altered, given the proper medical treatment (including heartworm treatment for one) and then placed in a foster home until they could be placed in a permanent home.In general, all applicants are screened and then a home check is performed by the rescue organization before any dog is adopted out, and on the application many questions about dog experience as well as questions about the willingness to do certain things to ensure a proper home life for the dog such as training, feeding, vetting, etc. This particular group specializes in the placement of American Pit Bull Terriers and Pit mixes and although they PREFER breed experience, they will adopt out to someone who shows a willingness to learn about the breed and the best way to raise and keep them.There is also a significant adoption fee for these dogs (I paid almost $400 for the two of them). My point is that these people claiming to be rescuers have the best intentions and are coming here for advice to keep their new charges healthy and relatively happy. I guess I'm done rambling for now. Good question though and I hope these "rescuers" will certainly take their new commitment seriously, but I believe that you are right in that many are just out to get a free or cheap animal. I'm done with my two cents.

Billy

Hi BIlly, you are welcome to believe whatever you like. But I do not believe that anyone said, vast knowledge of life events, is required. I think the question is, the vast majority that rescue them to a ten gallon fish take, with a screen top and a hide(whatever the heck that is) and a water bowl to soak in(???????) This is not vast knowledge and is without a doubt, is from the pot to the frying pan.

Also, dogs are not reptiles(last time I looked) please think about that, as it has lots of meaning. I have brought this up before, so I will again. If you kept your dogs in such conditions that they could not physically reproduce, you would be arrested. This is the same for reptiles, they reproduce under the least possible conditions. To not have the ability to reproduce means, the basic requirements are not provided. This is basic, not advanced. IF we kept them normally(for them) we could then decide to have them fixed or not, in order to not overpopulate. Remember, reproduction is only an outward sign that the basic needs are provided. Again, if the cannot, that shows something major is missing.

But we wander, I do have a question, How long do you think the average lifespan of these rescued monitors is? Any guesses? Have any of these Rescuers kept a monitor for its lifetime? I have to wonder, does anyone here, know what a lifetime is suppose to mean. F

How long do many of these rescues live?

That's easy, not long at all.
Look at it this way, between the period of (usually) poor husbandry, before it gets into the hands of the rescuer (or insert appropriate term here), the medications, stress and numerous other screw-ups along the way the animals life span is greatly compromised.

My Savannah Monitor, who passed away due to a malignant tumor a few months ago was taken from a bad situation: Neglected, suffered surious burns due to a hot rock, and seldom fed. I spent many hundreds of dollars nursing him back to health with the assistance of my vet and he pulled through and lived under my care for 8 years. He was nearly three years of age when I got him, and some say that my monitor should have lived another 10, others state that he could have lived another one or two.
My story is tragically, unusual.
On average most monitors I place live well-cared for lives in a nuturing environment, but largely succomb to some illness within three to four years after being placed.
Sometimes necropsies are performed, the causes of death usually range from severe invasive infections, like pnuemonia, sometimes cancer, and sometimes causes undetermined.
What else can I do? I place these (especially monitors) animals into the best homes and environments I can, and yes I do so knowing that there is a trend that tells me that the animal may live a few years at most.
When I get letters or pictures from people, sharing with me the joy and new awareness they have about an monitor they took in, well that's what makes it worthwhile. I'll tell you something else, these people never take reptiles of any kind for granted when their pet passes away.
I've wondered if I'm not just spinning my wheels. But you something, I really love these monitors alot, and I love to see people transformed by owning them, it is a precious experience.

-Kit

I like what you said about the people learning to respect ALL reptile life, from having their monitor. The owners, and probably their 'circle', too. Kids, neighbours, friends, co-workers etc. The monitor's life was significant, if not as long as it could have been.
D.

With the vast majority of the monitors being imports, and the stress and poor care that imports receive at least up until purchase by a pet store, I suspect that very few will live to thier natural life span, even if given the best care possible by an owner. The stress put on wild-caught imports can do damage that may not be realized until years later.

Katrina

Everyone needs to remember that overall, their natural lifespan/life expectancy in the wild can't be that great. How many in the wild die in flash floods, succumb to predation, die from injuries sustained from just being a monitor, die of congenital abnormalities/defects, etc.? I would bet that the survival rate of young savs, niles, dum's, waters, etc., in captivity is close to or better than what it is in the wild. There are thousands (tens of or hundreds of thousands?) hatched in the wild every year, but how many actually make it to sexual maturity and out of that small percentage, how many actually get to reproduce? Since there is this constant comparison of what they get in captivity vs. what is natural for them, how come no one allows their monitors to be selectively culled through predation, weather conditions etc.? This is why I feel that for the majority of keepers, providing their PET monitors the tools to live a healthy life is the main thing here and the more experienced keepers have the responsibility to continue to strive to learn all they can about monitor keeping and breeding and pass that along to the next wave of would-be monitor keepers.

Billy

"the basic life conditions are being met"
"a generally accepted state of good health"
"given a home where the basic necessities are being met (proper housing, diet and medical care)"

These are all simple things with dogs. Wouldn't reproduction be a basic life condition? Do you think these actually exist for monitors?

Comparing monitors and dogs, Keeping a burrowing monitor on newspaper is very similiar to tieing your dog 10 foot up a tree or keeping it locked in a wading pool full of water. The problem is it is completely accepted to keep monitors in conditions that do little except let the monitor live a long slow death. Once it is normal, with everyone breeding monitors accidentally (like with dogs and cats), then, maybe then I'll agree with you.

--Robert

The average pet owner grew up with mammals.
A dog, cat or gerbil or bird, even, needs a bed, a water bowl and some chow. (be it dogchow, birdchow, mousechow)
This is ingrained in people. To put a lizard in a tank with a waterbowl and some food (ewwww!not mice, isn't there a chow for monitors? ANY food that does not resemble rodents?), this makes people feel they have done good. Provided the basics.

Petkeeping has been elevated to the fine art of chow(just select the species) and a water bowl. The problem with monitors is, they have not domesticated themselves into using repti-bark , habbahuts and monitorchow.
I really don't believe people can conceive of anything more on their own. I know the feeling. My education started when I volunteered at the pet store and was HORRIFIED to see dead animals in the freezer. Whoever heard of such a thing?! I might have walked out, but didn't. It was such a foreign concept. What? no snake chow? How else can you feed these things?
And after a lifetime of equating a clean pet with a healthy pet, we are going to put our lizards on a layer of dirt?! Dirty dirt, too, from outside, ewwww. With bugs and worms. Can't you just BUY some packaged stuff with lizard pictures on the label??? Why not???

These are things you have to get past. And I can understand that it might be hard at first.
D.

I was equating keeping reptiles of ANY kind to keeping domestic animals like dogs, etc. The point I was trying to make is that if someone is passionate about "saving" or "rescuing" a monitor lizard, and does the proper research, creates a better environment than the one the lizard "existed" in prior (preferably MUCH better) and at least makes an effort to continue to improve on that animal's living conditions over time, isn't that better than just letting the animal die a slow death? Or better than another pet owner or store employee playing God and giving it the old bag-and-freeze? Just like adopting out Pit Bulls (if you have ever spent any time around them, you know they just don't think like other dogs and require a really special owner) to someone who shows an interest in learning about the breed and learning how to properly take care of that dog so it does not become a public nuisance, but has no prior breed experience can work out in the end. I know what the reality is and it's not pretty. I don't know many (any?) people who have kept ANY individual reptiles for their entire natural lifespan, i.e. they have kept them until they died of old age. But for argument's sake, let's say someone DID want to save the poor, malnourished, underfed animal and was willing to do the homework and put in the effort. And for argument's sake, the animal makes it another 5 years under their care (optimistic, I know). Isn't that still better than slowly wasting under substandard conditions for only a matter of months or maybe even worse, years? I would call that a rescue, which is what the point of Frank's original post was. In fact, I think the American Heritage Dictionary defined as (I'm paraphrasing here) delivering from immediate danger or harm.So what's wrong with calling it a rescue if the animal's living conditions are improving, even if those conditions are not allowing it to thrive to it's full potential. And just to clarify, I do not condone keeping a monitor on newspaper in a 10 gallon tank with a screen top, a hide and a soaking dish BUT, it's still better than being in 10 gallon tank with 5 other monitors, dirty newspaper, nowhere to secrete itself from prying eyes, no opportunities to bask and subsisting on a subpar diet that is offerd (maybe) once per week.

Billy

We all know(i hope so) the reasons for rescuing a captive monitor, thats not in question, We again should know that its being done with good intentions.

The question still remains, most do not have experience to do or say they are rescuing monitors. They are, in my opinion, simply trying to sound PC. Either to the rest of the world or mainly to themselves.

The ones that are really trying to do a good deed, seem to be the ones who are responding, it wasn't about you, was it?

I will leave it with this, live is more then a heartbeat, its about interaction with your own kind and your enviornment. Would you want to be rescued if you could never interact with your own kind and, or, do things normal to you. Maybe you should promote having them live a life as well as being alive.

In the picture of the two lacies, if you look, you should see, that being a pair is very important to them. F

Posted by: FR at Wed Sep 3 18:32:50 2003  [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

We all know(i hope so) the reasons for rescuing a captive monitor, thats not in question, We again should know that its being done with good intentions.

**Agreed.

The question still remains, most do not have experience to do or say they are rescuing monitors. They are, in my opinion, simply trying to sound PC. Either to the rest of the world or mainly to themselves.

**What was the question? I thought it was what is considered a rescue. I simply stated that delivering an animal from a wretched situation to one with a caregiver willing to do their very best to promote a long, healthy life, I would consider a rescue, if not the perfect situation. Unfortunately, not everyone can provide the perfect living conditions, but many can provide conditions that will allow the animal to survive and possibly thrive for many years. So what do YOU consider a rescue to be?

The ones that are really trying to do a good deed, seem to be the ones who are responding, it wasn't about you, was it?

**No it wasn't about me, but by saying that YOU have now made it about me. I am simply kicking some ideas around on this forum.

I will leave it with this, live is more then a heartbeat, its about interaction with your own kind and your enviornment. Would you want to be rescued if you could never interact with your own kind and, or, do things normal to you. Maybe you should promote having them live a life as well as being alive.

**I am promoting them having a life. It is up to the keepers who truly know how to provide them the tools they need to have this life to educate the ones who want to learn. But consider this, if a professional athlete loses a limb or becomes paralyzed, and is no longer able to able to interact with his old environment or do the things that are normal to him (what about sex/reproduction?), does this mean he no longer has a life, or does he adapt to his new circumstances and make the best of it? My beloved pits (which I have over 12 years experience with) have been bred for over a hundred years to fight and enjoy it. Now that they are not allowed to (as much as they want to because it comes so naturally to them), does that mean they have no life? Keep in mind that you made the first comparison between human life and monitor life, so I just took it a step further...

In the picture of the two lacies, if you look, you should see, that being a pair is very important to them.

**They are truly beautiful and appear to be happy, content and fulfilled. But is it a requirement that every keeper keep a pair or a breeding group to keep happy, healthy animals? Just some more thoughts. I haven't kept monitors since the dark ages of the early 90's, but I am very familiar with what your monitors have accomplished under your care and supervision and I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and insight. I would just like to see more of these "rescuers" pointed in the right direction rather than ignored and/or berated, for the animals' sakes.

Billy

I am sorry, I did not intend to have this be about anyone. Simply observing and asking questions. But again, people want to make it about them. to bad, it was not meant to be.

I do have my own questions about the good it does, and maybe more could be done in another direction. You know, preventative.

Still, the original post was about a overall subject, and somewhat directed towards the ones asking newbie type questions. I recieved no comments on that, only people commemting on them and about them. The sad part is, its not about them, its about the monitors. Always about the monitors, not about the persons fabulous experience.

Do you think Swans pair up?? would you keep Swans without mates? would everyone keep Swans without mates? That male lacie is about to become a Great grandfather. F

I recieved no comments on that, only people commemting on them and about them. The sad part is, its not about them, its about the monitors. Always about the monitors, not about the persons fabulous experience.
------------
I am the most recent poster about "rescues" and I did comment.

Nina

That's awesome that your Lace is going to be a grand-lizard.Just out of curiosity, what happened to all his offspring? That's what it's all about and I agree whole-heartedly about doing things more in a preventative vein. If we could educate all the newbies, maybe there would not be any need for these "rescues". So for the experienced keepers, why not answer these newbie questions with good, solid information based on what you all have learned from the monitors about the best way to keep them in captivity and start the preventative measures right here, at the source of so much informaion.

Billy

that I came to this board to learn all I could from those who WERE experienced, yet those who seem to the most skeptical about anyone ATTEMPTING to "learn" never even took the time to answer any of my questions. Luckily, due to a good vet, some really nice people on this forum who WERE willing to share the knowledge they DO have, and much, MUCH reading, our guys seem to have made a turn around.

Now, granted, nothing makes me madder than someone who buys something and THEN asks "how do I take care of it" but sometimes life sends you the unexpected, is it at those times that the you need to turn to others, more experiened for INSTANT help.

BTW thanks to those who shared their ideas and husbandry suggestinons. I have no doubt it made the difference between life and death for these guys.
Nina

The sad thing is that keeping no animal well is as easy as giving it food and water. It's just that mammals and some birds can survive longer than reptiles under those conditions. Most of the stuff that petstores sell for rodents and birds is just as much a travesty as the stuff they sell for herps.

I think reptiles will survive much longer in bad conditions than any mammal. They are designed to survive for extended times with little to no food or water. Most mammals would not survive what they do to reptiles during importing.

--Robert

Yeah... I guess it depends on the species. Many mammals and reptiles can survive on the 'bare basics', but the lack of basics does kill mammals a lot faster. I'm just sick of people putting hamsters or rats or parakeets in 10 gallons and then wondering why they develop stereotypical, obsessive behaviors. Their lifespans get shortened by it too. And they seem to have fewer welfare-advocates than reptiles do. I probably sound kind of silly on this forum going on about rodent welfare, but a lot of these people claim to have 'rescued' their pets from the maws of evil reptiles. I say the quick death probably would have been better.

I think that when people get them from a petstore and the animal looks depressed, sad, bored, or a bit thin in their eyes sick they call it a rescue. Ive looked around for these homeless reptile rescue places and every one seems to only have iguanas, and snakes. Im not sure why someone who gets the animal for free from someone then sticks it in a screen top ten gallon with newspapers calls it a rescue. They always seem to slowly ask as many questions about very basic care as they can all the while talking about how theyve rescued many reptiles before. I supose you need to learn about these things to keep them alive but try to do it before you get posession of the animal, its alot easier and the true expense occurs to you.

"More and more, the term rescue pops up. I am having a real hard time understanding it. I grew up in the zoo, animal park, Universty systems. There "rescue" meant to take a failing wild animal, return it to health and return it back to nature. Here the term is understandable."

I think that you are referring to a term that many herpetoculturists consider "rehabbing", as in being a rehabilitator for a wild box turtle hit by a car. In that case, the animal is taken to someone licensed, or at least knowledgable, in the treatment of injuries and the care of wild box turtles, and the animal is released once it is healthy and able to care for itself. The licensing varies from state to state in the US.

With the huge number of commonly available, cheap reptiles on the market, many of them arriving as imports in poor health and being sold in pet stores where they are given sub-standard care and sold to customers who do little or no research before their purchase, a sub-culture has developed to care for the these vast number of animals suffering from abuse and neglect. A rescue, in my terms, does not consitute a free animal. It is an animal that is receiving very substandard care, if not out-right abuse, and needs to be removed from a bad situation. If an animal is given away by a pet store, it typically is in very poor health and will require extensive, and expensive, veterinary care, proper husbandry, and time to return to good health. Thus, a "free" monitor can actually be quite costly.

A rescue can also mean an animal confiscated by a humane organization or animal control due to on-going abuse or neglect by the owner or pet store, or an animal adopted through an organization that takes in unwanted pets. This would not always be a "true" rescue, in the sense that many of the animals are simply unwanted and not always in poor health.

Many animal adoption groups require adoption applications, home checks, veterinary refrences, and the like. These groups are often called "rescues" as well, and in the mid-Atlantic, monitors are showing up frequently at "rescues". Some may specialize in a particular type of animal or they may take all varieties of reptiles.

Now, if you want to discuss English, then we are likely butchering the English language all to Hell in our discussion of rescues, but that's the beauty of English, it's open to change, or at least to slang.

Katrina

Since I am the most recent poster concerning "rescue", I will state exacatly why I considered my savannahs "rescues". I went to the pick up my daughter from her job, she works at a pet store. She was standing outside with some people who had a box, inside of this box were two severely dehydrated boscs. They had no clue what they were, or how to care for them and wanted some advice. I told them the basics of what they needed to do to get the reptiles to at least be able to live until the next day when I told them they needed to see a vet immediately, explaining to someone in a parking lot about something I was not knowledgable about is not easy. They said they had no way to care for them and could not invest any money in to their care. My husband got out of the truck, he was with me. He said that we would take them home that they had a better chance with US than with someone who didn't even have a basic understanding of reptile husbandry.

I work for an 8 veterinary practice that has a reptile vet. We had him examine them right away, we hydrated them, did fecals and began getting the balance of husbandry they needed. We own many different reptiles and snakes but had NEVER even considered getting a monitor, cheap, free or otherwise. Because of our concern for these animals we took them in. One of them has done beautifully and one has been a real struggle. We have spent alot of money on vet bills, building enclosures etc. BOTH, now appear to be on the uphill swing. IF we had not taken them in when we did, I have no doubt at least the smallest one would have been dead in a matter of days.

That is what I consider rescue.
Nina

Great job and keep up the good work!

Billy

rescue,adopting,buying. Thats not important, Nina. What's important is that you're striving to improve its life. What's important is that you're doing a good thing. You should never be discouraged about that. Regardless, of what you can provide. Your giving it better than most would give. Not all of us can build a "zoo" for our animals. We all do what we can with what we have. Best of luck!