Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had alot of temp variations during brumation last season, so I was thinking about creating a brumation chamber. My idea was to use an old fridge or wine cooler to be able to maintain temps in the high 50s to low 60s. Has anyone else built/used something similar? My main question/concern is suffocation. Is there a way to create air exchange w/o losing too much temperature?
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God Bless Evolution.

Both have been used by breeders before, but I've heard that many refridgerator's are tough to maintain these higher temps.

Wine coolers are capable of being maintained more accurately, and the higher temps are easily achieved.

I would think you could "google" this on a web search, as a fair number of people have used this method before.

I know for a fact that "Upscale" who posts here often has used this method before. drop him a "PM" and I'm sure he could explain what worked well for him. I do know that an aquarium pump is used for the introduction of fresh air.

good luck!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'd be interested in seeing a good article on this.
I know it does not get cool enough where I live to properly brumate some species that I would like to try to breed in the future.

If you have a small room you dedicate for it, I've also heard you can modify the controller on some of the single room AC units to be controlled by an external thermostat, thus bypassing the limitations of the range in their thermostats. That would probably be fairly hefty on the power bill though.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

It's perfectly OK to have temperature variations during brumation. In a lot of cases, that's what happens in the wild. If your brumation temperatures are fluctuating between 50 and 60 degrees, you can still reproduce snakes and have a high fertility rate.

If you're routinely going above 60, it might be another story though.

Tim

Third Eye

PM my but, what fun is that? Inquiring minds want to know.
My issue down here in the sweltering subtropics is always too much heat. Pretty hard to brumate when temps are in the seventies all “winter”. I posted all the details of this on the Cage and Habitat forum when I first did this, that’s the forum to check out when building a cage or coming up with a novel idea or just sharing some tip.

I converted a small wine cooler with just a bit of modification. I added the very smallest aquarium air pump I could find. I ran the air tubing into a Ziplock tub with about an inch of water and an air stone. That way the new air coming in had to go through the chilled water. I put the air pump on a timer to only come on for ten minutes twice a day. The Ziplock tubs were also what I used to keep the snakes, in bags. I didn’t give them water, but only brummated them for about seven weeks. All were fine with no problems. You do have to keep in mind that the wine cooler will cool down based on ambient temps, so in fact one night it got pretty cool, down into the low fifties, and the wine cooler dipped the same fifteen degrees down and that was a little too cool. My next project is a thermoelectric (Peltier) chip built into a cage to provide a nice thermal gradient! Check that other forum in about a week for that one…

This is the loaded wine cooler, which cost about eighty bucks. Very nice. It has a light and a fan that circulates the air inside. The “control” tub is the bottom left one. That kept the humidity up and air fresh but might really not be necessary. If you look up in the top left corner in back you can see where the greenish/blue air line tubing comes through the box.

Another view

This is the air pump, I zipped it up with an electrical tie up underneath the guts in back. It is about the size of a small wall wart plug. Very small, compact, and silent.

.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

God Bless Evolution.

Voltaire said that god is dead.
Now God says Voltaire is dead.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

"I have high friends in places."-H.Sherman in some bar

I have bred consistantly many many species of reptiles and I do not concern myself with brumation. Reptiles need both cool and warm temps and the ability to choose what they want at the time.

I have also lived in many parts of our country and never had a problem I live where the winters are very warm. Again, no problems.

I am curious. I wonder what those big time colubrid breeders do in Fla. I have visited them and did not see any special equipment for brumation. I know, I am currently hanging out with Mark Bell(for the last few days and the next few) I will ask what he does. Cheers

I'n in south Florida and personally I think temps for brumation are overated. I change my photo period with timers and use only one light in the winter. I have pretty good success that way and have done it for a while.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

I've found that this works well too with the possible exception of my coastal plains milks. Without a brumation I get 100% slugs. With it, I get close to 100% good eggs. These guys also regularly go off feed in late August - early September refusing all manner of feed. Perhaps there is something I'm not providing for this particular group (a fact I'm sure FR will remind me of) but in my experience, certainly under my care, coastals require a nice LONG dormancy if you (I) intend to breed them.

I don't doubt your experience, as they are real. But I do question the cause.

You can get fertile or infertile for a number of reasons. In your case, it appears your having problems with males. The question would be, what is causing it.

Sperm is developed by the males and is stored by the males, which means it could be killed or not produced in the male. Sperm is also stored in the female, which means it could be killed here as well. Or the eggs could be fertile but dead. All of these are represented by a different type of non living egg/ovum.

Its not a question of brumation or not brumation, The real question is, what is causing the problem?

What most miss with my profound(joe said it not me) statement is, these types of snakes and many others, NEED cool temps. In fact, I know they will use cool temps(55 to 65F) any time of year. So that choice IS very important.

But exposure to higher temps is not a problem either. If they have a choice. If they are forced(what we do in captivity) to use a temperature range that is not suitable, of course infertility is a problem, and worse.

As an example, if colubrid males are exposed to temps above 80F for long periods, then infertility becomes a problem. They can and do use temps up to 100F plus, but they must be able to leave that and rest at lower temps. And yes, lower temps includes temps in the 55F to 65F range.

In fact, we commonly find colubrids and even pythons and boas ACTIVE in air temps in that range(55 to 65F) IF your want to find diamond pythons or tableland carpets, thats the range you can do best in. Or boas for that matter, or even greenrats, they are not fond of moving at high temps, above seventyfive. But they will do that too, on occasion.

The reason I avoid the use of the term hibernation or brumation is, I commonly find snakes ACTIVE at those temps and lower. In fact we have seen many montane rattlesnakes active from the mid forties. Active means they are not hibernating or brumating.

Once this approach of allowing the snakes to make their own choices is done, a person(me) has a hard time thinking I know more then they do. If they are allowed to make their own choices, they do so expertly. They will also achieve superior results, on their own choice.

About going off feed, that has nothing to do with brumation or hibernation, most snakes have a rather short foraging period. In nature they many only feed for a few weeks to a few months.

They are off feed for many reasons, the main one being, they do not need to feed. During those periods, they do other needed activities, like partake in the breeding season.

Of course, non breeders have a longer feeding season, but theirs too is not all that long. In most cases their feeding season is linked to the abundance of their perfered prey. Before and after that, they conserve energy(stay cool) and that includes mid summer as well as winter.

The problem with this method is, you do not breed them, they breed themselves. That sorta takes you out of the picture. All you become is a poop scooper and cage cleaner.

just some thoughts take them for what they are worth, if they are worth anything to you, then do not take them. Cheers

I've seen you post of this 50 degree or so temp range needed to properly care for our kings many times but I have yet to read how it is to be accomplished. I predict another multi paragraphed post which I will pretty much guarantee everyone will still not give any possible way what so ever how to do this, especially for anyone that has more than a couple snakes. I love the concept but something a little more reality based from someone with all your experience would be great. I do expect a condesending response with a lot of filling to cover up the question though. Sorry for the sarcasm.

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Randy Whittington

It seems its you that put words in my post, that are not really there. For instance, you say to keep them properly, I never said that. I say, they use that range for them to reach their own potential. Which may or may not be what you or others normally see or are after.

You mention some people, well there are other people who may want to see "other" ways these snakes work. I post for those people, not for the people who are HAPPY with a narrow range of results from a narrow range of conditions.

The reality is, these snakes are not designed to live in a sweater box, but its very obvious that they can. The reality is, there are people who would like to know ways to keep them that are not for keeping them in a sweater box or other small cage.

When doing field work, we find these snakes are always picking different temps and conditions to fit their needs. I assume that they are designed to do this as this is done where they naturally occur. I also assume they are not designed to live in cages or sweater boxes, So I think of them as how they function in nature. Not how they function in a sweater box.

What you do, is yours to do. Have at it. But please let others widen their view of these wonderful snakes we are keeping. Thanks

I am ALWAYS looking to improve the care I provide for my snakes as are most others that post on this forum. But as you know most of these posts, just as this one, are started about how to do things best for our snakes in a CAPTIVE environment for several to hundreds of snakes in a collection, not about how in a fantasy world they would be kept in captivity. I truly realize that you have been doing this for longer than pretty much all of us and would bet my left one you have MANY, MANY good tips you could share but instead you awnser peoples posts with statements that are unrealistic for them to acheive in a captive environment, which is what the heck we are talking about. Were not talking about how to keep our snakes out in the field Frank.

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Randy Whittington

I think if one (anyone) is satisfied with the results they are getting then there is absolutely no reason to approach anything any differently. Stick with what works for you. Most are already doing what Frank is suggesting anyway, be it with a slightly narrower range of choices.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Shoot Joe I just keep waiting on the tip of how to provide more of a temp varient for my snakes than I find possible without having to provide all of them with tortoise or moniter size cages or a frige set at 50 with a hole cut in it for access in each cage. Maybe I'm hoping Frank is holding out on something we don't know. LOL
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Randy Whittington

>>I've seen you post of this 50 degree or so temp range needed to properly care for our kings many times but I have yet to read how it is to be accomplished.

This is what interests me the most. It sure would be nice if I didn't have to run AC 24/7. Electric Rates are up 30% for me.

I'm not there yet, but I'm building custom cages that utilize thermo electric cooling chips and thermal mass. If it works like I envision the room won't require AC or heat and species with broad or contrasting temperature requirements can be kept in the same room or even adjacent cages, hopefully with large economical (energy) implications for me.

But no, my solution probably won't work for you if you have a whole bunch of snakes, or maybe it could.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Now that's interesting. How do the thermo electric cooling chips work?
Some reasonable way to drop the temp on one end of cages especially for species that need cooler temps would be incredible for the hobby. I have some high elevation species that would especially benefit from that.
I keep my house as cool as reasonably possible in the summer by AC and have heat on one end of my drawers and cages but it's just hard as everyone knows to acheive any great variant in temps.
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Randy Whittington

>>Now that's interesting. How do the thermo electric cooling chips work?

Run some current through them and they get cold, and if I'm not mistaken in some chips the current can be reverse and the chips get warm.

The thermal mass part is the part that I have not found a practical solution for yet. I can't get past anything that doesn't involve a great deal of weight to absorb and radiate cool and warmth. I'm afraid the word light weight does not enter into this conversation anywhere.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Here’s a little preview of what I’m experimenting with…

This is the Peltier chip mounted to the heat sink, and the big chunk of aluminum I will use on the cold side.

I cut some stick on tile for insulation; I will bolt this assembly to a wooden shelf.

This is the shelf mounted in the corner. The cold plate is on the underside of the shelf. The peltier and heat sink are on top with a 12 volt fan. There’s a big vent cut into the corner of the cage.

This is with the cover screwed on. The wires all go out the back.

I will post some details on the Cage and Habitat forum in a few days. For now, I got a good six or seven degree difference from under the shelf to the other side of the cage, which is perfect. I am running two wall warts, one to the chip that gets very hot (the wall wart, not the chip). It is a universal type that I can select 12, 9, 6, and 3 volts. The chip runs with any of that. I am still experimenting with it.
The other wall wart is straight 12 volt for the fan. This cage is 47 inches long by 23.5 deep. Still in the trial and error phase, not ready to put anything in it yet. I would love to see what you are working on, maybe we can come up with something really useful soon! Please contribute in the Cage and Habitat forum!

Please Randy, do not take offense, you are willing to say that you do not want to give snakes a larger cage like others are willing to give torts and monitors.

Of course offering choices takes more room that telling the snakes what do to. You see, if you did that to a monitor, they simply die. They REQUIRE choices and it appears torts do to. The point is, while you can do away with it for snakes, is that whats best for them, or whats best for US. I will include me in that as well.

You see, its really not about the snakes, its about us. We are not willing to give them more then the basics. So I ask, Why not give them larger cages?

Are snakes less deserving then torts and monitors?? Again, please understand, I am included in this, I too still do not offer them what I offer our torts and monitors. How sad.

And all this time you had me thinking you were doing some cutting edge things with your colubrids and were just holding out on us. Now I find out your doing what the rest of us are. I'm disappionted. LOL. I actually appreciate your more candid response.
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Randy Whittington

Actually I have a pair in a large cage with plenty of choices. As with a pair of greenrats. Also I nest all the colubrids in nest cages that are many times bigger then their cages.

What I think of as funny, is the stuff you mention, the cutting edge stuff I did thirty years ago too. I kept kings in colonies, in large cages, with subfloors(large drawers) etc. And I did not hibernate them and set all manner of growth and reproductive records.

The revolutary stuff you are thinking about is called behavior. No matter what sized cage or what species, I still try to allow them as much behavior as possible. This is what bothers me, all these snakes are behavioral beasts and they are kept in such a way, there is NO behavior allowed.

There entire life is nothing but behavior. How can that be considered good to take that away from them??? Randy, can you answer that for me? just this one question. Cheers and thanks

What is best is probably not keeping captive snakes at all and instead spending our time and recourses fighting to preserve areas where they can be observed in the wild.
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Darwin Rocks!

I feel that way too sometimes Tony. I find myself wondering no matter how big a cage I put them in is it to salve my conscience or are they really fooled into thinking they are free. Interactions with humans on a regular basis is not "natural" and I have found when I put a tame snake in a very large enclosure, I get an angry stressed out animal that freaks whenever I deal with it and that can't be good for an animal.(just some of my experiences)Sometimes I can't even observe anything because they spend most of their time out of my sight hiding and when they do see me they race off to a hide, not to be seen again for a while.

I like larger cages and I realize a lot of you have had better experiences. I wonder if it's fair to feel like keeping snakes is like having a dog. It's a pack animal,a hunter and very smart but we don't allow them to act like their wild counterparts and our regular interaction with them keeps us from being a prey animal and we try to enjoy them with a good conscience. Just my thoughts.........

BobS

Hi Randy, As you know, I am not so tolerant or good with speaking to people. Its hard for me. I do give people credit. I think you should understand this stuff.

Then when you don't I try to explain the best I can, often using successful examples. But then folks take this as bragging or what not. Sir, its not about that. How can you brag about something these animals do on their own and have done so for millions of years.

I did what you do, I did that thirty years ago. I did keep them and nest them in the manner most here do. That is why I am a pioneer. I did that a very long time ago. I think Denny Millers book on Alterna, mentions a keeper in Tucson producing several hundred Blairs a year. I was that person. That was in the seventies when few had Blairs, muchless produced them.

Why I mention that, so you understand that I too did what you do. And I do not feel bad for doing what you do. But I have moved on.

Over the decades, I have continued to learn more and more about snakes. Doing this changes how you look at them. It includes MORE.

In my experience, they are not animals in a box, there is much more too them. What they do in nature is WHAT THEY ARE. But sadly its apparent that many keepers use them as a postage stamp. That is, they have them as a living picture of whats in nature. And yes, thats more accurate with the purists.

The problem is, you/they do not keep them in a manner that allows the living stamps to express what they ARE. They are often kept much like a stamp. They are stored in a drawer. The drawer is opened and the keeper admires the snake and back in the drawer it goes. Yes, In the distant past, I proved you can keep and breed colubrids in drawers(pre-sweater box) And yes you can do so for a very long time.

But those boxes do not allow for that individual snake or species actually does. It breaks them down to a common animal. Keeping a blairs or thayeri or calking or fla king or blackrat or greenrat is the same. Yet, those snakes are NOT the same. They are different. They are the same in base needs, but differ in behavior and How they obtain that same(the same base requirements).

But enough of that, The reality is, many keepers are happy keeping snakes is a base successful way, thats fine, its much better then failing with them(which is common of the varanid area).

But that is not the end, there is more. Over the years I moved on for being simply successful to attempting to allow different behaviors, behaviors such as pair selection, or nest building, or care of the young. Yes, they do care for their young. Or group dynamics. Yes, they are often in groups. And that includes kingsnakes. And yes this is about both wild and captive snakes.

The reality is, these in our cages are WILD snakes, they still know how and want to perform their lifes functions. They want to perform basic snake functions and more, like species functions and as simple as it sounds, individual functions.

What I am saying is, there are many reasons to keep an animal. You have yours and others have theirs. And sir, I have mine, which may or may not be the same as some, many, most. But it is the same as some, so why not let us talk about what WE like in these snakes. You may keep them for their looks, and others may keep them as a rememberance(to remind them of a place and time, like hunting in West texas or your trip to Georgia) and some like me, like to keep them to see what makes them tick(their behavior).

You call this fantasy, but its not, its something the animals actually do, its simply that you may not understand it. So its indeed fantasy to you and some others. Its nothing against you, you simply do not or have not understood that there is more to these animals then plastic boxes(any box).

A simple thought is, how could the animals in your shoeboxes or similar cages exsist in nature. What behaviors do they express that would allow them to live in the constantly changing conditions of nature. In nature, the conditions you provide are always changing, the temps vary over a 24 hour period, or a week, a month, a year and vary from year to year. The moisture levels also vary, as do the predators and the prey base. All this is in constant change. How does these fine animals cope with this????? They have to have behaviors(methods) to adjust to these changes. Again, what do your captives show that would allow them to accomplish this?

Please understand, I am not bagging on you, I am simply saying, there is more.

But in the end it boils down to human behavior. If you're(you and others) so happy with what you do, why do you care what I say??????????????? This confuses me. If I am just another person ignorant of snakes, then I should not mean anything to you. But apparently, I do mean something, or you folks would simply ignore me. You don't. You seem to fall into a protectionist defense, then attack me. Again, if I am wrong, why would you care? There are lots and lots of people that are wrong.

Let me be a lot presumptuous, I think those that fight me tooth and claw, may be a little insecure about their own methods. As good as you are and no one is saying your not, you know there is something missing. But you do not know what that something is. So you get mad. Thats normal and fine, you just must realize who to get mad at. And that is not me.hh

In the end, you do not have to do/read, or consider anything I say.

In the end, these wonderful animals are far more then what we see in a box(any box) So why not let us(me and others) explore and enjoy that part of snake keeping? Sir to me, that is the question, why not let us do what we like. You can surely do what you like. You must understand, my posts are not to chance anyone or convince anyone of anything. I only offer people who want options something to thing about(TO CONSIDER, look that up please).

Whatever the cause it was unique to the coastals because all other species I was keeping at the time didn't suffer the same results from the same conditions. In any case a protracted cooling period solved the issue for me. As they go off feed anyway I see this as a situation that "aint broke" and therefore "don't need fixin"!
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Darwin Rocks!

BTW per coms with the Dave and Tracy Barker, they had the same results not brumating the coastals under their charge!
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Darwin Rocks!

How about calling Dave or Tracy and ask them about MY understanding of wild snakes/reptiles. Then ask them about my understanding of captive reptiles. You may find that answer interesting. Cheers

Frank, I think most people here respect your insights and admire your thinking out of the box. Your posts challenge the status quo and as hobbyists that desire to do well by their charges we listen and try to look past our ways to see if we can do better.

That being said Frank, I think if you could not answer questions with questions like a herp Yoda and give us plain examples of how you are accomplishing these things it would really help us to do better, if as I believe. that your posts are ultimately meant to help us be better and more resposible keepers.

Frank I respect and enjoy your posts and always look forward to your posts about things like your winter bullsnake feedings, long term observations of paired Gilas and all the rest but I do understand why folks get frustrated. You are liked and admired here by many and respected by those you even offend. I just think we could all learn more? Then again, maybe from your perspective it wouldn't be as much fun. I could appreciate that too! LOL

Respectfully,
BobS

I'm not speaking for him - but thinking about how to do it, I'll hazard a guess.

I suspect he controls the ambient temp of his herp room, whereas most of us have a high ambient temp in our herp room.

When I had a suriname boa in a 4' x 18" tank in my living room, I had to put flexwatt under the cool side because with the hot side in the mid 90s the cool side was still ambient and my ambient temp was too cool during winter (often low 60s, I'd rather wear a sweater like Jimmy Carter than pay high gas bill) - and that was just a 4' enclosure (glass).

I suspect to get a good gradient you need a good sized tank and a room that is ambient controlled to be cool, and to allow heat to escape the cool side and radiate into the ambient.

Cooling a cool side below ambient is going to be difficult because heat pumps exhaust more heat than they cool the targeted area (which is why AC units always exhaust outside and leaving your fridge door open actually warms the kitchen).
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I decided my old sig was too big.

LOL @ "Herp Yoda".
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God Bless Evolution.

There was a California Kingsnake in Yoda's hut ...
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I decided my old sig was too big.

>>Reptiles need both cool and warm temps and the ability to choose what they want at the time.

Simple yet profound. I thought I'd highlight it so it doesn't get taken out of context.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

In Florida we can have very warm winters, where maybe the snakes out in nature have an “off’ year and low production. We would rather not mimic that condition in captives, preferring to have an artificially high production even in off years. So it is probably a good idea to simulate the conditions that have reliably worked for others. Most breeders down here just use air conditioning, easy. It really doesn’t matter why or require experimentation or deep contemplation. You follow the recipe and don’t fix what isn’t broke. You provide a cycle of cooling to stimulate a breeding season. It is tried and true. If it works, who cares if it really is true.

I am in Fl. formerly South now N Central both climates fluctuate the only prob was those warm days they are semi active including their metabolism,though no food is offered cause on impending cooldown ,THEY NEED WATER . proven fact period
your broom chamber could be ventilated with a small 1 outlet aquarium pump drill a small 3/8" hole near bottom since heat rises and maybe only use the air at your descretion. on one day off another ?????
My first thought after reading you request,just a thought