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Came home this morning and found this with four more still to come out. Parents were from RB.

everybody's xmas are from ric blair

I am afraid he tripped and dropped a RR speckle neck in with his Xmas, but then all of his locality seem to have speckles.
Sorry Ric, but that has bugged me for years.
Later
Rick

Long ago Boyden produced a speckled alterna out of his christmas line. I know it's not the usuall christmas everyones
used to seeing. But Blair did buy all of Boydens alterna.
KC

Male alterna is dark and the female is light with specks.
KC

Those are some cool babies.

I found my first Xmas alterna in the early 70's and many more in the 80's, some since then and I have seen countless that others have collected over the past 35 years and NONE of them looked like your babies. I would not be shocked if Tom produced a speckled from his Luna Vista but that is still not what they look like. Look at all of RB's, DJ's, DD's they all tend to look the same no matter what locality. Line breeding, selective breeding or cross breeding I can't say, but I can say this, they don't look like that in the wild and isn't that what LOCALITY is about?? If you want to make a cool snake, fine but don't represent it as what you might see when out collecting(observing)
I sure hate to be the one that ruffles feathers on this forum.
Later
Rick

I agree with every thing you said. This is not what is the norm for christmas it's not even what I thought would come out. I was
breeding for black not for specks.
But thats why we all breed alterna to get the alterna rush.
KC

said no way came from Xmas. However it came from animals that were produced by Hodgson. Its siblings are beautiful examples of xmas animals. When I get a chance I will post all of the pictures and you will see the odd-ball of the batch. But is without a doubt an Xmas. All of the Gap animals looked nothing like the ones now being produced. All came from the patternless animal that Chris Sheldon caught and sold to Dan Johnson. So in otherwords all of the awesome speckled alterna from the Gap are not great representatives of what you will find in the Gap either. So they should be suspect also. Maybe Chris did not really catch it in the GAP. Right Ricky. So if you have some of these gaps from Dan you are not keeping good representatives of true GAP animals. If there was even a remote chance that a River road slipped in I would not even have kept the babys. In fact I would have probably put them to sleep as I hate mixed localities with a passion, And would not even give them away.....Ric

"In fact I would have probably put them to sleep as I hate mixed localities with a passion, And would not even give them away.....Ric"

Ric Ric Ric.................stop talking like that! That's blasphemy! No alterna EVER should be put down! For shame!

Wayne

Rick.Your word is as good as GOLD to me.Good points on GAP representation.

Rick,
I totally agree with your statement. So many people on here just want to say "killer snake" and go on. I think that these are beautiful snakes that he has posted. There is no doubt that the three breeders that you mentioned have produced some of the most stunning altera that I have seen. However, they do all seem to start looking alike. I know what snakes from a certain locality should look like and I think that the majority of the babies in a clutch should represent the locality well. You always get an oddball or two and that is what make alterna great. But if you selectively breed for only that one trait (ie. patternless gaps), the special becomes quite mundane. I have also always had a problem with Dan breeding that Stillwell snake to all of his "true Gaps" and selling them as Black Gap animals. While that was a spectacular snake, I don't feel as though it is from the same "locality". It would be like breeding a Xmas to a Pepper's Hill and calling it a Xmas. Just my little rant.

I agree 100%. I've seen dozens of wc from the xmas and hundreds of photos. No speckleds in any of them.

After the first generation breeding of wild caughts you _begin_ the path to captive cultivar.

The question is at what point are they no longer considered representative of wild caught locality animals? I do not think there is ONE answer to this question as it varies greatly, but obviously in some cases by the first or second generation of captive cultivar they are not recognizable as locality animals.

I don't have or see any solutions, I'm just pointing out the obvious.

And stillwells x headquarters or further south is not what I would consider a tight locality pairing at all.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Preface this with this is just what I'm thinking at this moment, and as my opinion it isn't right or wrong, it is merely what I am thinking right now. so....if you want to discuss it as such please do.

I would never buy an animal as locality if I couldn't see a complete ancestry record such as that that Dan Johnson created. I'm not saying every pairing Dan made was tight locality pairing. I AM saying that Dan set the standard for documentation.

Half of the so called locality breeders out there these days can't tell you if their animals are F3 or F10, and that is wrong. Not only should you be able to see the parents, grandparents and great parents photos, but you should be able to see every sibling for those generations as well, just as in Dan's web site.

In my opinion without that kind of documentation then the word locality has no business in the description, period.

This information is also extremely useful for captive cultivars (read non locality). For breeders wishing to express certain traits ancestry and genealogy are paramount.

No offense to the locality breeders out there now, but I can count the number of breeders I'd buy from on one finger.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I agree on the Stilwell store breeding to more southern is a problem for me anyway. However that is just for me. It might be OK for others so I do not want to judge anyone who thinks differently. I do not believe I bought any of that breeding from Dan. I hope not...Ric
P.S. I have many classic animals from many localities. So anyone can pick and choose what they want. Is it not why we live in the USA. Freedom to think and choose as we want.

>>>anyone can pick and choose what they want. Is it not why we live in the USA. Freedom to think and choose as we want.

You get no argument from me there. Breeders are free to produce what they want and buyers are free to buy what they want. I'm not your typical alterna buyer so my views are extreme. I'm not a typical hunter either. I'm only looking in places where others aren't except for a few nights in the last ten years or so.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

You are a stand up guy in my book Joe. Have always had a lot of respect for you and always will. I think what you are doing is very unique and I wish I had more time and lived closer. I would probably be doing the same thing. Looking for new localities. I appreciate all the work you have put in on the computer and your input as well. Ric
P.S. I have seen some Xmas animals wild caught that had some speckling in the neck area. Only a couple. It could be brought out through line breeding. Apparently thats what happened to Keith's animals. Never seen anything that xtreme. So there is something out of the ordinary from the xmas mountains. I have one like that and you have the others so there are anly a handful of these out there. I will keep on producing babies from the Hodgson stock as they produce some awesome classic animals with an ocassional freak. Did not try to breed for the speckleds, just bred what I got and it happened. So Ricky's statement is unfounded that I breed for these. Seems everyone always posts pictures of the classics as that is usually what is caught in the Xmas.

Take a look at these WC gallery photos of 118 alterna
453 Dan J
305 Terry H
563 Doug B
572 Jerry S
585 Brad A
2327 Troy H

Then tell me you see no specks on 118 luna vista alterna
KC

Are you saying I will see snakes that look like the babies you posted? I don't think I said there has never been or will never be an alterna with speckles from Luna vista, my point was and still is that they do not represent that locality. I also think the common consensus among the people who know is that I am correct, at least that is what I get from all the calls and emails I got today. This has turned into a credibility and popularity contest and it should be about the fact that locality alterna should look like locality alterna and flukes from a locality should be sold as flukes. And sometimes it is about credibility.
Thats it for me.
Rick

Well put Rick. I have a photo on the xmas galery. Its an alterna morph with alternater dots but its a lonnnnnggggg ways from looking like the ones Mr Carlson hatched out, which by the way I think are outstanding looking in their own right. I just bet that somewhere down the line there is outside influence either by accident [hopefully] or on purpose [convenience]. Just my 2 cents. BA

Weren't you making the claim that your striped baby came from
WC adults and are you making a claim that speckled ones couldn't
happen from luna vista cuts when out of your WC alterna pops
a striped one. Do you see a problem with what your saying.
I never said you could see speckled alterna in the photo gallery. I showed that 118's do have specks and if the right animals hook up they could produce an incredible group of animals. Just as yours did with stripes mine did it with specks.
There also have been partial striped WC alterna found around alpine. I think the bottom line is you can just about find anything in west Texas if you find enough of a sampling. Example I've seen a few blairs come off the river road.
I'll say it again also I was breeding for black not specks when this clutch popped out!!!!. I was not line breeding for specks.
KC

If I wanted to argue, I would have stayed with my second X wife.

That a boy Rick! Sick em! Good answer!

Wayne

Post. Maybe you should reread my first post. I'll I ever said was to check out my non typical christmas clutch. Your the one that started the attack against Ric with a slip of rivers in it.
KC

Now that was funny! Glad to see you still have a sense of humor, Rick. BA

patternless from the further south gap local. Not the stilwell animal. I agree that they are not indicative of the the animals as a whole. But everyone breeds for color and beauty. Especially if you sell the offspring. The mundane or average just do not seem to sell. I have to usually give them away. I guess that everyone has a choice as to what they want to buy. I believe that you can produce all kinds of patterns with line breeding from same localities....Ric
P.S. I guess a striped alterna would not be all that nice to some people as it is definetly not what what you would find in the wild, right. Has anyone caught a full striped animal. I would also bet that if Ricky had two stripers from the same locality that he would breed for that trait. I would bet that he would want more money for that animal also, then a normal one.

The mundane or average just do not seem to sell. I have to usually give them away

I will get my address to you

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If I produced a striped alterna, I would breed the crap out of it and sell as many babies as I could!! I may or may not sell them as locality striped alterna but if I did, I don't think anyone would expect to go to that locality and collect one like it. Can you say the same thing?
If Hodgson said he produced a speckled from Luna Vista then he did. Still doesn't look like anything you would find there and not everyone knows that. Alot of people haven't had the opportunity to experience what you and I and a few others have, they don't know what the real ones look like. Typical Luna Vista alterna are some of the prettiest and coolest and hardest to find, you may have the best wild caught collection on the planet from Luna Vista and you breed them to look like RR. With the new laws and the next laws to come, we may not get many more WC from there, do you want yours to represent that locality when we can't get any more? What is the purpose of keeping localities separate if they all look the same? There is a good market for generic and just pretty snakes and I have no problem with that, I have a generic female that produces some weird babies every year but I sell them as generic. I am with Joe, after how many generations do they become man made?
I don't mean this as a slap at you but it's just my opinion.
Later
Rick

dont breed snakes that are further removed than 1 generation from the wild, then nobody can accuse you of line breeding. Especially if you breed the F1 back to a WC. One thing is for sure, nobody will find any problems with my snakes not representing the locality they came from, or have any questions as to the validity of the breeders.
Link

I did what Ric said and put them to sleep!

Keith, I thought I had your phone number in my cell. Can't find it. Give me a call 801-971-7540. Thanks

at least you wont have to worry about feeding them. Some people cant use their imaginations. Look at the pair of WC 9 mile North of Sandersons Fraser has. They produce babies that dont look anything like 9 mile snakes. Anyhow, those eggs are about to pop, Ill send you pics when they do. Those were some nice W Alpines you produced. U going to Tx this weekend?

What WC 9 milers are you referring to?

The only two 9 milers on his site. One of the offspring looks pretty normal, but the other one looks like something from further west, and nothing Ive seen from Sanderson. Im not suggesting foul play or anything like that, I was just pointing out that sometimes some oddballs arise. Also, I just looked and apparently those are F1's. Regardless, I wouldnt have expexted to see that baby with the diamonds come out of those parents. On the other hand that male isnt like any WC 9 miler Ive seen.

Ah OK... I was just racking my brain and couldn't seem to remember any WC 9-milers on his site. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy.

...the locality issue, you could say that even F1s from wild-caught, locality, parent stock bred together in captivity are probably not exactly like what you'd find in the wild either. In other words, no natural selection brought those pairs together.

It's still artificial selection with two randomly-caught (albeit from the same cut or canyon) snakes put together in captivity by humans. No males had to duke it out over females...no females chose which male to breed with (if female choice of males even occurs in alterna, in the first place) etc.

Even pairs that are caught in the act of being locked up doesn't gaurantee that the male sired her clutch that she'll later deposit, especially since females can store and utilize sperm from different males from previous years.

Basically, if man attempts to control or harness natural events in any way, the mere attempt ALWAYS throws a new variable into the equation, even if it's only slight, and it's no longer natural.

All we can do is get generally close to what may naturally happen.

Of course, I'm just playing Captain Obvious here again...

DR
Suboc.com

splitting hairs. Natural selection did occur. It produced the snakes that I took off the cuts. I dont claim to understand everything about natural reproductive biology in alterna, but I do know that when I put two snakes together from the same cut, the gene pool of that cut is accurately represented. Would those 2 snakes have produced offspring in the wild, who knows, so ultimately youre right.

I agree with you. I mean, I breed and sell locality animals too, and like you say, natural selection did produce the two snakes you found off the cut.

And yes, even though artificial selection takes over from that point, two snakes bred from the same cut does represent the gene pool from that locale.

I didn't think my point was contradicting what anyone else has said thus far. Just taking it to a different level.

DR
Suboc.com

Notice I didn't respond to the post below with the stripped alterna from your female and our male. I like neat animals but have absolutely no interest in trying to make a killing selling them. Once the hobby transforms into how much money can be made then the whole thing is lost in my opinion. Then you HAVE to make so much per animal. You start stiffing your friends. Then its about the "deals" that are going. I have no interest in that. I want to be able to give my friends animals that they appreciate. I like to surround myself with others that also appreciate the animals for what they are... rather than what they are worth. I buy animals when I can from folks that are noteworthy. I give animals away when I can because that is just who I am.

This is just my opinion. It is not meant to offend anyone.
I probably should have not chimed in but felt I had to...

Best wishes,

Steven

I know how you feel. I have never made a profit in any year, ever. But at sometime it would be nice to be able to pay for the snake food. I am obsessive compulsive and have over 1100 snakes in my collection. Over $400,000.00 invested. So yes it would be nice to finally see a return. As for your statement I say to each his own. You may want to drive a hybris to save on gas, I might like to drive my sports car. My problem is I have given away far to many animals. When Dave Long lost his collection in and accident I gave him over 20 localitie exceptional animals to help out. I could have pocketed 3000.00 to 4000.00 for these animals. That is me. I like to help out friends in need. Ric
P.S. I will not have to worry about putting any cross localities down as I do not breed them anyway. Not knowingly anyway. The mundane (locality) animals I do not sell I will gladly ship to Wayne or anyone who wants them. They just need to pay for the shipping. You can sell them or give them away if you like. No strings attached. I have tried to get my snakes that I have from very respected alterna collectors and breeders. I have caught many myself as many of you know.

In the past. I had a problem with that Juno male and you sent me a knockout... no charge. You could've said "your problem, not mine." But you didn't. So I appreciate it.

Any you want to send my way I will be happy to pay for shipping. No problem there. Just let me know. We lost 1 xmas this year, 1 Juno, 1 north sanderson (16mile). Lance replaced the sanderson 16 mile north. Now just need to replace the others. Not a good year for us (Alterna Wise).

Oh well...

Best Wishes,

Steven

Why does everyone feel as if they should not make a profit selling alterna? Making a profit? Why is this a bad thing? I realize it's a hobby for most of us but if I ever make a profit off of selling alterna, I sure as hell wouldn't be "apologizing" for it. I know what you guys are saying but is it not nice to come out ahead? TPWD obviously thinks we all make a killing at it and it appears we aren't going to change their robotic litte minds. You (most of us that collect) have legal hunting licenses, non game collection permits, non game commercial permits, so why does it seem like you guys almost seem to apologize for wanting to get ahead? It's unfortunately true that most of us don't, but it just bugs me when I read some of these posts!

Wayne

Ric,
How the heck do you feed 1100 snakes??????? Thats more than most zoos herpetariums and they have paid staff to do all the husbandry. Nice to hear you're still around though. Maybe we can have a roundball rematch one of these days! Spurs STILL OWN the jazz of course. BA

Sitting heart rate 52. BP 117/87 Weight 198 instead of 320 and just came took third in npc body building comp. Just trying to scare you a little. Is that not a good strategy, LOL. Best of luck...Ric

Wow! I weigh more than you now, just barely. Congrats on the weight loss, thats amazing. You probably added 25 years to your life. But with that weight loss you won't be able to post me up as easy! You still own me in acey/duecy or whatever that card game was that you and your son took a months paycheck from me. BA

Ric,

Wow, that is an amazingly large collection of animals. I think at my peak I probably had 3 or 400 but would never have dreamed of that many. What percentage of those are alterna? --Archaeo1

Actually I do not breed them to look like that. I try for the black and red. Huge blotches. These that came from the Hodgson stock are not what I typically produce. The ones that Keith produced are far and away different from what I have produced. Look at his breeders. You would never have thought that pairing produced those animals. Most of my animals are beautiful more typical animals. This is very unusual to see those animals. The unusual ones only come from that pairing. I have lots of xmas animals that are classic. None of those produce the speckles, only the Hodgson animals that I got from Dave Long. Ric Blair
P.S. They do not look all speckled either. Weird stuff going on that gene pool. I have seen lots seen quite a few animals caught on the Xmas that would have passed for River Rd. I remember one Ben Dial caught that I would never have thought to be an Xmas. Ric

Ric,
I was not trying to say that you were only breeding for the patternless animals. I was not trying to take a shot at you at all. I know that you have one of the finest collections of alterna out there. I am just saying that every time that I see a Gap snake posted on this forum, they all look the same. I agree with Joe's comment about Dan keeping excellent records of his pairings and lineage. If you did not want a Stillwell/Black Gap cross, then you did not have to buy one (all you had to do was look at the pairing of adults on his website). The problem comes when those snakes leave a breeder that keeps impeccable records. I would venture to say that most people that are producing "Black Gaps" are producing snakes that have Stillwell genes. That probably doesn't bother many people, but it does me. I am much more anal about locality. Every snake in my collection is wild caught or cb by me or someone that I trust completely. When someone gets an animal from me, I can tell them exactly where the parents came from. I have GPS coordinates on all of my wc breeders with the exeption of one, and I think that I can get within 100 yards or so of that one. Too many people loose track of the lineage of the animals, yet still call their animals locality. Nothing wrong with breeding for whatever trait that you like, I just like the natural variety. That being said, I never pick the ugliest animal out of the clutch as a holdback.

do you count on.....byran...what's wrong with the ugliest grayband....you need them for the locality genes....that's why this string should be labeled"HOTTER THAN H...."

>>do you count on.....byran...what's wrong with the ugliest grayband....you need them for the locality genes....that's why this string should be labeled"HOTTER THAN H...."
>>

Bob,
I prefer to find Darth Vader phase than buy a pretty one. That's just me though, I understand we are all different and that's why we have these discussions. How boring it would be if we are all the same and agree on everything.

Bryan??? Shooot. Everyone knows Bryan grew up with a spotlight in his hands. The first time I drove through Val Verde EVER (74'), we got a flat tire on the loop road and I paid Bryan's dad a quarter to get inside his trailer and see the snakes. Bryan has (or did have) one of my WC snakes in his group. I don't need to say anything else.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe,
Still got her (laid 12 eggs this year!). She is the one that I said that I could probably get within 100 yards of the spot she was collected.
Bryan

Shoot Joe, was that Bryan's dad that had that trailer snake exhibit on Langtry Loop back then? I could not remember for the life of me who operated that. I recall stopping in there a couple of times back in the early 70s. Bought a lepidus and a young reticulated python from him. The lepidus was a good investment...but don't ask me why I got the retic....just an impulse purchase I guess.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

Yes that was my dad. I made my first trip to the transpecos when I was 6 weeks old. I went to Langtry every other weekend throughout my childhood. It was like my second home. Lots of good stories about the snake exhibit trailer.

Dan did keep impeccable records. Except for the snafu with mixing up Gap and Hueco animals!!! LOL. BA

Check the post above on photos in image gallery

Hey Brian,

I doubt too many progeny of that Stillwell snake are out there. I only bred him one year when he produced 31 offspring. Over a 7 year period a total of 546 Gaps were produced from my collection, so the babies with Stillwell blood only amounted to 5% of the offspring.

--Dan

Dan,
I know from looking at photos of hatchlings that he produced some nice ones. I figured that many people jumped on them in a hurry because of how nice he was. I also figured that most of these light alterna had a little Stillwell in them because of the few light phase collected from the rest of that road. If I am wrong, then I apologize to all of those that I might have offended (which was not my intent). I know the people that got snakes from you that I would buy from/ do a breeding loan with have kept up with the genetic history of the animals that they keep. I hope to put my snakes in a similar data base as you had on your website. It is ultimately up to the buyer to keep up with their breeding stock so that mix ups do not ruin their "locality" reputation.

Did not think you were taking a shot and I kind of misread your post. Hard to read voice infection into a post. No bad return volley meant on my part. Did not want it to sound that way. Just trying to get a message across. Thanks...Ric

No problem Ric. I look forward to seeing what you produce this year.

next week I will post the picture of the mother and the father. The mother is one I got from Tom bred with the male from Hodgson stock. The female has some definite speckling and the male obviously produces some speckling also. Ric

All these posts & not one person said, "Congrats! Awesome clutch!"

Those are some screamer snakes & maybe, some day, somebody will catch one of those in the wild. Oops! Forgot; maybe someone will observe one in the wild.

Anyways, nice clutch! I especially like the one with the semi-spotted line down its back.

Cheers,
Max
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"Huh? I think you deserve an award for the most incomprehensible post ever "

In 30-40 years of hunting the Xmas there has never been any found like that, at least not to my knowledge. If someone had found one like those we would of seen it. BA

I`m not trying to be a wise a** or anything, but what if you had caught a xmas female that was gravid and a couple months later her eggs hatch out and there is an albino in the litter. Clearly it is a fluke but would you breed the albino or just keep it as a pet?

Nice Post

My first thought is, I don't think it would matter what you breed it to. It would be a cool find and worth reproducing but not a representative of any locality.
Any other thoughts?
Later
Rick

You forget it can happen in breeding related progeny back together. That is usually how they get albinos. How many full striped alterna have been found in the wild. Yet they are produced in captivity. How many hypo and anery alterna have been found? When it happens it happens. I know of one person posting on here that let his whole collection of alterna die. Had lots of Xmas. Never got much of a chance to do much line breeding, but is an authority on it now. Maybe he is with wild caughts but not much on breeding. I have not seen much of his stock up for sale anywhere but he has found a number of xmas alterna. That is a shame. In fact I don't know of anyone that advertises his bloodline. I produced a lot of alterna over the years. I have had great success with Boyden animals where even boyden had trouble getting a lot of good eggs. Maybe it was just a change of scenery, LOL. I will have alot of Xmas alterna again this year. Believe me I have a sufficient number of alterna in all localities and I do not to put anything together for convenience. If I do not have a locality mate for it, it does not get bred, period. Another thing is I just keep getting emails wondering when I will have snakes available for sale. I guess I just need to keep posting the representative snakes as some people do not want to see the unusual ones without taking a crack at them. I have only produced one bizarre GAP animal. But it seems to stick in someones mind..... Ric Blair
P.S. Where are the speckles in my Val Verde stock. Seen many from Sanderson. I am talking lots of unusual patterns and speckles from wild caughts in these areas, river road, the Davis mountains. So is it just the Xmas that is the problem? Ask norman about lots of wild caught speckles in all the Davis locality. He is the authority there. All my adult wild caught observatory are busy as hell. The only female I caught there is super speckled. I guess I caught that elsewhere and thought it would be better to say the observatory then where it really came from. Right? Anyway I have stayed low and not said much for a couple of years. These are just some of the reasons why. I just came to back Keith up.

Never heard Keith or anyone say they were representative of snakes from the Xmas. That was a no brainer. I think everyone kind of figured that one out. Just not that many people here that critic snakes like the chosen few. The others are just good people and would not do that. I would not do it for sure. He just wanted people to see some nice unusual snakes.
P.S. When I get called a liar and thats what happened. I could come back with some real crap on the person but I am not that kind of guy. That persons credibility with me is shot. The things I have seen and heard done by them to others and to snakes is not someone I would, hire, loan money to or befriend for a very long time. I am talking incredibly ruthless. So I guess if being acused of mixing a snake together. I can just sit back and smile if thats all I am acused of doing. Ric

>>P.S. When I get called a liar and thats what happened.

Maybe they are accusing the guy that sold you those snake(s) of being a liar? I don't know, but no they didn't come out and call you a liar, unless you caught every snake in your collection. I think that's what the last one was about, not you but the other guy.

Best
Joe
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Maybe they are accusing the guy that sold you those snake(s) of being a liar? I don't know, but no they didn't come out and call you a liar, unless you caught every snake in your collection. I think that's what the last one was about, not you but the other guy.

Best
Joe

That is a good point Joe, and likely the only weak link in Ric's vast collection. Over the years all his diligence and effort could be undermined by just one collector / breeder that misrepresented something. In the end all you can do is work with what you have and weed out anything you do not trust for some reason. After all nobody said honesty meant never being misled, and I have no personal doubts about the honesty of anybody in this thread.

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

>>Came home this morning and found this with four more still to come out. Parents were from RB.
>>