Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have searched the forum and elsewhere and have found little info on this subject. I am interested in breeding my sav but wondering how to go about this. any info or links would be appreciated.

Also, sexing a sav... How? I read somewhere it is easiest to do this while they are going #2, but all i can see when she(he) does that is, well, #2. I would hate to pay $35 dollars to have the vet do this for me, but i would be willing to if that is the best way for breeding purposes so i am not setting up any same sex marriages, so to speak.

There are some people on here who can give you a very good idea of the sex from just pictures of it.

Probing is very inaccurate with monitors.

african monitors are the easyest to sex at any age!

go to your local shop and watch them until you see!!
the tails are different, the heads too but harder to see.

invest in Ravi's book and have fun.

Any butcher can probe them, and theres a 90% chance that they will cause permanent damage to the lizard trying, they are after all not snakes.
There are many features that give away the lizards sex. If someone knows what they are doing they can pop them, but this takes someone who knows what they are doing also.
Try posting many side, top, and bottom pics of the lizard for others to identify. Also a young (or physically immature specimen) monitor can be difficult to guess at 100%.
There have been only a few cases in 15 years with bosc monitors being bred in captivity, due to lack of interest in keepers setting them up, and keeping them properly (they are very inexpensive lizards), also because there would be no market for $250-$350 captive bred boscs as long as wholesalers buy them for $1-$5 each and sell them for $25-$100 each, sometimes as CBB (lies).
Good luck and give it a try.

did you know that albigularis, bosc, niloticus, ornatus are the only monitors that can be accuratly probed when young?

most snake breeders can teach you how to do it safely.

So you are saying it is tough to successfully breed savs? That is interesting thanks for the info! I will get some pics up tomorrow so we can play the 'am i a boy or a girl' game.

I had two different "experienced" vets probe my blackthroat. Both were wrong. I would not trust probing unless you have someone with years of monitor breeding/probing experience.

Why not just take some photos?

Anyone can keep monitors and have them reproduce, it don’t take any special talent, its not like playing an instrument or painting a portrait.

All you need is dedication and commitment, the lizards do good if you provide them well.
However if your question is if savannah monitors are easier to keep successfully then forest monitors, the answer is yes!. All savannah monitors including the Australian, Indonesian are much more tolerant to variables then the forest species, this means they will take more of our human errors (neglect)

This particular Angolan specie is also a savannah monitor, perhaps the largest African varanids known, they are also harder to sex then other African monitors, still you can see a difference in body shape and tail, however unlike your savannah’s they cant be sexed by eye color, in regular savannah monitors males always have darker red-orange eyes, females light orange to yellow. I don’t know why nobody has published this yet?
Enjoy!!

Are those microstictus - True blackthroats?

Wow those are spectacular.... iwantthat.

i will have some pics up by tonight for the official sexing marathon.

Microsticus has nothing to do with the color of throat, the name refers to the smaller neck scaling of albigularis from the eastern part of the range.

However if you ask my opinion about black throat (ionides) they are not microsticus and should have full recognition as a specie, not only based on evident color and patterning difference, but mostly for morphological rezones, one in particular is that they have a much longer tail then any other albigularis. I don’t know how any taxonomist could have missed this point?

Photo of true microsticus from Mozambique, compare them to ionides.

Microsticus has nothing to do with the color of throat, the name refers to the smaller neck scaling of albigularis from the eastern part of the range.

No, I know it doesn't, it actually means 'small spotted' as in the tiny spots, compared to Ionidesi. For instance, there's a butterfly named 'Piruna Microstictus', with the common name of 'Small-spotted Skipperling. I read several different articles about V. Microstictus and all said they're named that, due to the tiny spots on their body, not the small neck scales.

There's so much conflicting information given out these days,
That's why I try to cross reference when there's any doubt. I don't think the butterfly has any neck scales, but sure does have small spots on it's wings

lets see what the experts have to say?

this cauld be fun!

In 1964 Laurent named a new specie of varanids from Angola, he named it varanus e.microsticus from a comparison to varanus exanthematicus (witch is named after the enlarged neck scales, Laurent first noticed that his new varanids showed much smaller neck scales then the animal he was comparing it to. You have to understand that Laurent was a frog guy working with Angolan amphibians at the time, his knowledge of varanids was poor.
Local name of these animals (Tchitatu) they are from (Tshokwe Angola) and where described by Laurent in 1964.

The black throat or ionide monitors come from the east coast of Africa, Laurent has never even seen the ionide monitor of the pet trade.

Theirs so much confusion that I prefer calling them by there origins.
Really theirs no need to argue about it as even guys like MBK and RGS (didn’t) don’t even understand this complex.

This is the original specie Laurent named from Angola.

No arguing, but that tells me something, that he's comparing it to Exanthematicus and not other Albigs, who also posess smaller neck scales.
So, I'm still going with the small spots differentiating Microstictus from other Albigs such as V.a.a and V.a.Ionidesi (which according to some, is no longer recognized as a different sub species).

in the near future albigularis ionidesis will be called (albigularis nigrogularis)and microsticus from Mozambique will probably become (albigularis nigrogularis mosambicus)

the name microsticus was rubbed from Laurent when they named his specie albigularis angolensis, it will disapear entierly.

but hey call them as you wish!

ps. How do I know all this? Thats the question!!!

Well I can tell you this- I've been trying to come up with a more appropriate name for the ones with black throats, since I got my Ionidesi, rather than albigularis which means white throat and I was also thinking along the same lines as you have stated.
It should be 'neg' for black and 'gularis' for throat. So they'll be a contradiction 'white throat'-blackthroat.Lol

Actually the original descriptions say albogularis (blackthroat) as almost all WTs have black throats as babies.

I am sorry but your miss informed, albigularis albigularis never show black throat coloration at any age, that’s why they are called white throats.

At present the only albigularis I don’t keep is the banded cape that FR is keeping, I don’t know if they have black throats, but if they do they aren’t albigularis, how simple is that?

Let me rephraize this, MANY albigularis have a black or darker throat as hatchlings when more colorful, therefore they were originally referred to as albogularis, but as they age the darker coloration disappears (some stay dark or black, ie blackthroats). This is why they were classified as albogularis then it changed to albigularis (in reference to a few papers Mark Bayless sent me years ago).
Somehow this subject changed a bit from its original subject which was "breeding the bosc monitor or V.exanthematicus".

There is a lot of confusion here! Microstictus was described in 1845. The animals Laurent described in 1964 were ionodesi from Tanzania, not Angola - angolensis was described by Schmidt in 1933. The species has a huge range and lives in a lot of different habitats. In general the body scales of albigularis group animals get smaller (i.e. scale counts get higher) in more southerly latitudes and, from museum specimens with good locality data, the variation is fairly continuous. The patterns also vary enormously with those coming from higher rainfall areas having more pattern. A lot of monitors collected in Africa are exported from countries other than their country of origin. Like most animals collected for the pet trade, locality data is impossible to verify and sometimes highly suspect. Most of the museum material isn't suitable for molecular analysis and pet trade animals are useless for such comparisons.
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Mampam Conservation

The animals Laurent described as ionodesi were juveniles and the black and white picture he provides doesn't look anything like the animals in this picture.
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Mampam Conservation

((In 1964 Laurent named a new specie of varanids from Angola, he named it varanus e.microsticus from a comparison to varanus exanthematicus (witch is named after the enlarged neck scales, Laurent first noticed that his new varanids showed much smaller neck scales then the animal he was comparing it to. You have to understand that Laurent was a frog guy working with Angolan amphibians at the time, his knowledge of varanids was poor.
Local name of these animals (Tchitatu) they are from (Tshokwe Angola) and where described by Laurent in 1964.))

proof me wrong Daniel

Why waste peoples' time like this?

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Mampam Conservation

are you making fun of me?
this document has nothing to do with Laurent's discovery in angola. I sugest you do your home work.

these are monitors sent to him by an other person, Laurent has never been to that location and these animals have nothing to do with his. I think you guys are confused.

it is not a wast of time to set the recard strait!

again I ask you to prouve me wrong!

I bet you cant, not even with all your friends help.

pleas try! dont make me beg.

You are saying that, after publishing his description of ionodesi, R. F. Laurent described another subspecies of monitor lizard in the same year, and that rather than give it a new name he picked a name that he knew had already been in use for 119 years, and that he published this description in a journal so utterly obscure that it never got into a single catalogue and nobody except you has ever seen it? And then you ask me to prove that this is not the case?

With regret I have to delete this forum from my bookmarks. It is bad for my mental health. Goodbye and good luck - you need it!
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Mampam Conservation

oh pleas stop your pity nonsens, its getting old.

This leads to the document I am interested in, perhaps then you can help clear things up?

Laurent, R.F. 1964. Reptiles et Amphibiens de L’Angola. Publications Culturas Companhia de Diamantes de Angola, Lisboa 67 : 1-165.

That isn't a description of a new subspecies. Microstictus was definitively described in 1893, more than 20 years before Laurent was born. Laurent published a single description of a new form of monitor lizard - ionodesi, in 1964, in Brevoria.
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Mampam Conservation

This information was given to me by MKB long before the publishing of BIAWAK vol2

In this publication MBK gives the locality, name and year.
In numerous phone calls he explained to me that Laurent’s work with varanids wasn’t given too much credit, mainly because he was French and so was ionides, if that’s true or not is insignificant. What I deplore is being served wrong information by peoples I trusted.

You cleared allot on this thread, no need for ill feelings.
I still provided good truthful information's
Sexual dimorphism in eye color and tail, plus the useless fact that they can be probed unlike other monitors.

The information you have provided is very interesting, but I still want to make sure theirs no other work by Laurent about monitors.

Can you confirm this?

>>You are saying that, after publishing his description of ionodesi, R. F. Laurent described another subspecies of monitor lizard in the same year, and that rather than give it a new name he picked a name that he knew had already been in use for 119 years, and that he published this description in a journal so utterly obscure that it never got into a single catalogue and nobody except you has ever seen it? And then you ask me to prove that this is not the case?

With regret I have to delete this forum from my bookmarks. It is bad for my mental health. Goodbye and good luck - you need it!
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Mampam Conservation>>

Oh come on!! Don't give up on us! You're right, we do need help and your contribution was 'very' helpful here, but why punish the rest of us by abandoning the forum over something so trivial? Anyway, there are many more decent folks on here, than it may sometimes seem, who probably really appreciate your contributions and I'm sure if it were put to a vote, that would be made clear.

Susan.

Well I see this topic has taken a nose dive!

I don't think it's a waste of time to back up your statement and I thank you for posting that interesting article and pictures of my favourite Albigs!

I don't see you posting too often on the forum, which I think is unfortunate, but understandable.

Susan.

Susan Daniel and others don’t come hear because they will be challenged, many times he cant answer to our questions because he don’t have the expertise to do so.
I asked him a simple question, and provided locality and dates, yet he provides the only document that started this entire confusion.

Laurents first work was with Angolan monitors, he was asked that same year to view specimens from the east.
all I am asking is for the original document!?

Daniel don’t go thinking I am trying to confront you, however I am sure your intelligent enough to know that I posted on this thread with the intent of provoking your reaction.
I don’t do this to be offending or to show you are wrong, I do it to get information. Others like MKB, RGS and even WGB have proven to be wrong many times, of course never admitting.
True the years iv provided them with at least 3 unknown African varanids in my care, one from central Africa (bengalensis like) one with an entire black head and neck with yellow-black or red-black body coloration, and last this Angolan specie witch only Laurent seems to have knowledge about, I say this because he pins point the exact locality they came from.

It doesn’t matter to me if I am Wright or wrong, learning is what matters most, its in this regard that I shared these monitors with the so called experts, thinking they would shed some light and help, well they didn’t and one of them provided me with so many contradicting papers it was silly.
That’s why I question literatures when peoples publishes none original documents, papers of papers that loses there meanings in translation.

I would really appreciate you providing me official documents by Laurent not hear say material.

I spent more then 25 years working with captive monitors, I plan on working with wild African monitors for at least this amount of time, like it or not we will have to talk again somehow sometime!

If you are saying that you intentionally write stuff that you know is completely false just to get a reaction then um err, well

speechless
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Mampam Conservation

no what I am really saying is that many things you poblished is wrong, but you like your peers keep being hard headed about it.
this leave me speechless!!

Jobi-
Why don't you proove yourself right? Why does Daniel have to proove you wrong? Those looked like ionides and like nothing else. Even if we didn't use names, I don't believe they show up on the west coast area of Africa at all & they are what they are. As for publishing, look at Reptiles Magazine's article on albigs. Balsai was 180 degrees off on many statements. In the end, no one can proove anything on this forum. You are not convinced with publications and pictures either. How about posting some info yourself? documentation? pictures? Hey, and someone will always say, "Can't tell that was taken in Africa," or "That must have been an odd ball, Is there a population of them?"

Kakes

P.S. No one wants to hear you play the "It's a secret" card either.

top pic looks like a banded white throat and the bottom a regular white throat. They don't look like the microstictus in your other post.

I assure you they are 100% mozambique (I imported them)

like I said they arent microsticus annymore.
cheers

Actually if you look at cape bandeds and microstictus the pattern is alot different. The cape banded actually has complete bands. Microstictus have small spots as opposed to the large spots of ionidesi. Cape bandeds have no spots, and are smaller lizards by far.
I asked these questions for years to those who actually classify, and reclassify them, the best answers and descriptions came from Mark Bayless (may he RIP). He sent me some papers on the subject once.
The big WTs from lower altitudes but near latitudes to BTs are similar sizes, or the same. The farther south the smaller.

Jobi, in reference to the eye color...........is it the same in the young or does it change as they age as some bird species do?
This is very interesting.

Quig

The eye color should not be 100% reliable, as theirs always an exception.

However if your out to obtain a pair, this and the tail tip will almost guaranty you a pair.

Eyes don’t change much with age, a photo of both animals side by side is the best way to gage eye color as our eyes often plays trick on us, depending of light or shadows. For sure both animals must be viewed at once.

Shoot, the tail tip was like the only thing i DIDN"T take a pic of lol... hopefully you can still tell by the pics i did take.

Many monitors can be sexed by the body to tail ratio.
You need 2 the same size (length) for comparison (male and female). For the same total length the female has a longer tail, a shorter body, a wider head, the mid section (from leg to leg)is longer on the female (to accomodate the ability to produce and carry many eggs, some species this is more exagerrated).
In V.exanthematicus if you compare the eye color you can see the difference with 2 idividuals side by side, but if you didnt know how to identify those differences from one sex to another this would be difficult.

Not tough, as Jobi said, being a species that is so easy to keep with keeper errors, they would be easier than many other species.
Read the quote from my original responce.....,

"There have been only a few cases in 15 years with bosc monitors being bred in captivity,
due to lack of interest in keepers setting them up,
and keeping them properly (they are very inexpensive lizards), also because there would be no market for $250-$350 captive bred boscs as long as wholesalers buy them for $1-$5 each and sell them for $25-$100 each, sometimes as CBB (lies)."

Ive seen more than a few albigs, and bosc that the length of hemiclitori, and hemipenes are identical, or the hemiclitori are longer (ie deeper). This would make for inaccurate readings, also from one male or female to another the same body size and age, the sex organs can be half to twice the length. Ive seen people who know what they are doing with snakes probe them, but they would be wrong 50% of the time on any monitor.
Probing doesnt work, there are many other features to identify the sex more accurately.