Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found a wild EBT with an ear infection and would like to do an experiment with anesthesia. I know this sounds irresponsible and crazy, but I have read of success in doing this with dart frogs and have a friend doing research with other amphibians and this EBT offers me a chance to start research with reptiles. I would like to try anesthetizing this EBT with diluted alcohol. The past research by the others was done with beer diluted. Any help on dosage, administration, comments or concerns would be greatly appreciated. Any other home made anesthesia remedies would also be very interesting to hear. Thanks for your time.

>>... I know this sounds irresponsible and crazy,...

yep, please take that little fella to a professional.
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Patsy

>>>>... I know this sounds irresponsible and crazy,...
>>
>>yep, please take that little fella to a professional.

Exactly! No home experimenting!
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Cliff

My Collection:
2.2 Eastern Box Turtles
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle
0.0.1 Desert Ornate Box Turtle
1.1.1 Redfoot Tortoises
2.1 Russian Tortoises
1.0.1 African Sulcata Tortoises
1.0 Burmese Python
0.1 Virginia Opossum
1.0 German Boxer
1.0 Pit Bull
1.1 Chihuahuas

Yes I figured that I would get lots of responses like these. Let me give you a little back round on myself before I get anymore: I am going on my fifth year going for a bio major with concentrations in herpetology and veterinary medicine. I have preformed many at home surgeries and minor operations, but with my recent move I can no longer get anesthesia, and with the always increasing legislation and drug enforcement I was getting more and more leery about possessing these type of drugs without a license. That is what lead me to research other anesthesia methods.

Note:
Beer has nothing harmful in it other than the alcohol and in fact is very nutritious. Ancient people made beer for just those reasons and researchers are uncertain of which came first beer or bread.

Does anyone know of any research done on the affects of alcohol on reptiles?

Thanks once again for your time.

You might have better luck posting your query on the message board for this group (link below).
Link

You should place the turtle back where it was found. Wild turtles are often found with ear infections. These infections are self-correcting. Many times I have performed surgeries on infected ears, only to find out years later that this is not necessary.

I too was a bio/pre-Veterinary major. I worked as a Veterinary technician for several years and was extensively involved in turtle rescue and rehabilitation. While your intentions are good, your actions are unethical. We should not be experimenting with wild turtles upon our own whims. You are concerned about violating drug laws, when in truth you very well may be violating laws by performing surgery upon a wild animal. Most importantly, the surgery is unecessary.

You will probably not find the information you seek due to the fact that safe, easy, and effective anesthesia protocols are readily available to those that require them. If you do come across something, I'd be extremely cautious.

Please don't take offense. I tried very hard to not be rude or insulting.

Ken (or others): Do you have evidence that these infections generally cure on their own? In your experience is it generally unnecessary to lance/clean, supply antibiotics to a turtle with such an infection.

Luckily my turtles have never gotten one of these type of infections (knock on wood). However, last year I came across a wild male with both "cheeks" swollen to the point that they looked almost to bursting. "He" had to be hurting. The rest of his body/shell etc. looked good, and he was otherwise in his prime. Not being rich (I majored in bio too!), I wasn't going to take him to a vet, and released him after a good soaking (it was during a dry spell). Hopefully, mother nature was easy on him.

Yeah, it was kind of a suprise to me also.

If there are no other apparent symptoms of a larger infection, these ear abscesses typically just run their course. Basically, the infection will just work its way outward until the infected "chunk" of flesh just falls off. A small hole will be evident for a very short time, but granulation tissue will close it up within hours to a few days.

Of course, surgery can help speed recovery by removal of the caseous plug. For pet animals, owners might even opt for surgery as a method of speeding recovery.

I am not a Vet., but have learned a lot through rescue, rehab, other rehabbers, and several close friends that are Vets (including one herp Vet.). Keep in mind, though, I'm just some dude on the internet.

I have read accounts by other long time box turtle keepers of these ear infections opening and healing spontaneously. The lumps eventually get so distended that either the turtle's claws or incidental contact with other objects will cause the tympanic membrane to rupture and the caseated mass to fall away. Having said that, last year my female Eastern that I've had for ten years developed a unilateral aural infection that I opted to have treated surgically. I wish I hadn't. I went to a local herp vet with a good reputation who assured me the procedure was routine. He used propofol to put her under and I gave her a series of five Baytril injections, starting before the surgery and ending afterwards. The morning after the surgery, she couldn't walk without a great amount of discomfort and dragged both legs on the left side and had trouble moving her right front leg also. She only had one fully funtional leg-her right rear one. It was as if she had a stroke. She didn't regain much mobility, although her appetite returned and she seemed fine as long as she was still. She hibernated on my porch, as usual, but upon coming out of hibernation, her leg problems hadn't changed at all. It's been a year since the surgery and I've been imposing physical therapy by putting her out in the open and forcing her to use her legs a couple times a day. She has gradually regained some mobility in all of her legs, but she still lacks any real strength in her front legs and still can't climb up on her hide log, which used to be her favorite place to bask. She can't reach forward completely to wipe away food while she's eating, so she always has stuff stuck to her face. It's been a very slow and trying recovery process, but I'm still hopeful she'll eventually get all of her mobility and strength back. Turtles do everything slowly, including healing. I know this was a long-winded story, but I thought it would be interesting to put out there. Anaesthesia and injections are risky and never guaranteed to be routine with small animals.

that was an extraordinary post!
thanks/p
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Patsy

I've seen it happen with some of mine. I usually only see ear infections with juvenilles and sometimes I have to put surgery off for a week if things or crazy then I go get the turtle in question only to find that the big lump is gone. In other cases, when the lump is really big, I'll start probing it with the exacto knife I'm about to use and the lump falls out as a big pussy lump and all I have to do is rinse the opening out with nolvasan and then pack it with neosporin. It usually heals very fast and while the use of afore mentioned antiseptics is a good precaution, obviously some heal fine without it.

This can also happen with cysts turtles might have on the neck.

I soaked her yesterday and when I looked at her last night, I got a real good look at the situation. One side is so large the scale is whitish from being stretched so thin I can see the puss inside. The other side either has a growth on it or it popped earlier as I moved her to get a better look she awoke and pulled head back in. That side is still large as well just half the size of the other though. My original intentions were to hold off as long as possible and monitor the infection, but I would like to gather more info before the surgery takes place, if it takes place at all.

if you "knew" that you would get posts like mine, why did you not explain your experience/whatever to begin with and not waste my time? It still seems fairly egotistical, or whatever euphemism that is less offensive, on your part to do this thing. Hopefully you will take to heart a few of the posts from those that have more experience than you. I just have common sense.
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Patsy

First do no harm! Anethsetics and sedation can be risky when performed by vets and human doctors. An ear infection does not warrant anesthesia if it does warrant surgery.

My vet did the first ear infection I ever had with a turtle, he didn't use any anesthesia and I've been "lancing" ear infections since that time and as I am not a vet, wouldn't even contemplate trying to coming up with a way to use anethesia. If its so bad that it needs anethesia, then it warrents a vet's attention.

I once had an Irish Setter that developed a cyst on her hind quarters. My husband somehow thought this was an emergency and took her to a vet that he wanted us to use because his family had used this vet. At the time, I still took my cat to a vet I liked in my former college town, 40 miles away. My husband returned with a collar and leash. The vet tech, who was acting in this clinic instead of the vet who owned the clinic had given our setter a sedative to lance this "zit" and she dropped dead.
The vet I should have taken her to (I had two small children so I unwisely had let my husband deal with this), said this tech had used a risky combination of two sedatives and the use of a sedative was completely unnecessary. He also said my husband's vet was known to be unethical.

Needless to say, the offending vet purchased us another, much more expensive, setter. We had to drive to Dallas as Setters can't always be found in Oklahoma. When Lindsey II developed the same kind of cyst, I drove her the 40 miles to the vet I trusted
and he lanced it without any sedative or anesthesia. I helped them hold her and she did fine.

My point is, sedatives and anesthetics are risky and should only be used when absolutely necessary. I would think they would be much trickier with a reptile, then say, a dog or a cat.

My ears hurt from reading all these posts. So, clearly the common sense take home is that the risk of improperly administered anesthesia is far greater than the risks of letting the ear infection take it's course, only problem is we humans always think we can "make it better" and have to go messin'. Really, do you need 4yrs of Vet school to understand that? Well, now you guys can send your hate responses to me instead of the original poster,lol.
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Jeff Benfer

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