Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My younger brother has a pair of BRBs and on the 21st, 14 babies were born. He didn't put the snakes through a cooling cycle or do anything special to stimulate breeding - they just decided to do it on their own. I've always thought they were beautiful snakes, especially the male, which he got several years ago from Bryan Hummel, and of course I'm tempted to ask him what the "family member discount" on a baby would be.

I've got 2 kinds of geckos currently; if I do get one, it would be my first snake. That being said, I've had some exposure to snakes and am comfortable handling my brother's rainbows and carpet python, so I don't *think* I'd be out of my depth. I've lurked this board a lot and read a bunch of care sheets (Dave Colling's was very informative) and think I have a good handle on what it takes to care for them, but of course there are a few things I'm unclear on.

I know an adult needs about a 2 foot x 3 foot x 2 foot tall cage and that juveniles don't need as much space. The part I don't have a clear idea on is how quickly they usually grow. The care sheets I've seen talk about them being 3-4 feet long in a year, and I would think adult size caging would be appropriate then, but what about at 6 months, 3 months, etc? How long would I have before needing to spend the $ on a proper adult size cage?

The Animal Plastics T5 seems to be the closest thing to reasonably priced in that size - is it ok or do you have to spend more to get a decent snake cage? Is it possible to get a good one for less?

Is a thermostat controlling the heat source absolutely necessary, or can you get away with a rheostat? Is there a decent one available for cheaper than the herpstat or helix? $110 seems a lot for temperature control on one cage. If it is necessary, is the helix worth the extra $ over the herpstat (looks like they're usually about $20-30 more)?

Seems like the actual snake is likely to be the least expensive part of this potential endeavor, and that's fine, but I'm trying to get an idea of total cost of initial setup in order to determine whether or not I can afford this. Assuming AP cages are good, it looks like I'd be looking at about $320 to them for a T5 with a lock, preinstalled lighting and heat ($50 in shipping, ouch!), and another $110 plus shipping on a thermostat for a total of $430 or so. Is that realistic? Are there good options at lower prices?

Ok, that's probably enough questions for one post - I don't want to end up writing you guys a novel over this.

Oh, and I suppose it'd be rude to talk about new baby snakes without passing on one of the photos he sent me when they were born, so here you go:

-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

Congratulations on the new snake and welcome to the forum. I'm not a BRB expert by any means, but I do have a few general comments:

- You might want to consider getting a larger (ie, adult-sized) case now, assuming you have the space. The AP T-10 is actually
cheaper than the T5. It's not at high (15", but not sure you
need 24" in height. If you do want/need more height, the T-11 and T-12 are only $60 more. My personal opinion is that as long
as you provide a nice hide spot or two, having a large cage for a baby is not a problem. So the question about how fast do they grow is irrelevant, and then a few years down the road you won't have to go through the process again of getting a new cage!
(I have an Animal Plastics T-11, btw, for my Indigo. It's great cage for the money.) I believe all the manufacterers, though, have similar prices on similar sized cages. Lastly, I would not skimp on housing. Last thing you want is a dead/escaped snake!
Although cost is minimal, not sure you need the flourescent lighting either.

- Thermostat is ideal, but you can also get away with a rheostat. I have a Johsnon Controls A-419 thermostat, I've had no problems with it. They are about $80, which I think is cheap enough to not even consider a store-bought rheostat. (You could
probably make your own if you like home projects and wiring.)

Good luck. If you get the snake, keep the pics coming.

Thanks,
Ed

>>My younger brother has a pair of BRBs and on the 21st, 14 babies were born. He didn't put the snakes through a cooling cycle or do anything special to stimulate breeding - they just decided to do it on their own. I've always thought they were beautiful snakes, especially the male, which he got several years ago from Bryan Hummel, and of course I'm tempted to ask him what the "family member discount" on a baby would be.
>>
>>I've got 2 kinds of geckos currently; if I do get one, it would be my first snake. That being said, I've had some exposure to snakes and am comfortable handling my brother's rainbows and carpet python, so I don't *think* I'd be out of my depth. I've lurked this board a lot and read a bunch of care sheets (Dave Colling's was very informative) and think I have a good handle on what it takes to care for them, but of course there are a few things I'm unclear on.
>>
>>I know an adult needs about a 2 foot x 3 foot x 2 foot tall cage and that juveniles don't need as much space. The part I don't have a clear idea on is how quickly they usually grow. The care sheets I've seen talk about them being 3-4 feet long in a year, and I would think adult size caging would be appropriate then, but what about at 6 months, 3 months, etc? How long would I have before needing to spend the $ on a proper adult size cage?
>>
>>The Animal Plastics T5 seems to be the closest thing to reasonably priced in that size - is it ok or do you have to spend more to get a decent snake cage? Is it possible to get a good one for less?
>>
>>Is a thermostat controlling the heat source absolutely necessary, or can you get away with a rheostat? Is there a decent one available for cheaper than the herpstat or helix? $110 seems a lot for temperature control on one cage. If it is necessary, is the helix worth the extra $ over the herpstat (looks like they're usually about $20-30 more)?
>>
>>Seems like the actual snake is likely to be the least expensive part of this potential endeavor, and that's fine, but I'm trying to get an idea of total cost of initial setup in order to determine whether or not I can afford this. Assuming AP cages are good, it looks like I'd be looking at about $320 to them for a T5 with a lock, preinstalled lighting and heat ($50 in shipping, ouch!), and another $110 plus shipping on a thermostat for a total of $430 or so. Is that realistic? Are there good options at lower prices?
>>
>>Ok, that's probably enough questions for one post - I don't want to end up writing you guys a novel over this.
>>
>>Oh, and I suppose it'd be rude to talk about new baby snakes without passing on one of the photos he sent me when they were born, so here you go:
>>
>>-----
>>0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
>>0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

Welcome to the forum and definitely go for the family discount option. B-day coming up soon? Early X-mas, Trick or treat

Urban legend - small snakes do better in small enclosures - UNTRUE

Only reason to graduate the cage size is if you have multiple snakes and will be raising up small ones all the time like me.

As long as proper temp controls and PROPER sized hides are provided, a baby will do just fine in a larger cage. Only other issue is that there are no gaps a baby could escape through. If so, you could get away with a smaller shoebox or sweaterbox inside the cage. Using the cage controls to maintain temps and provide a secondary enclosure should the baby escape.

Taller is OK but IMO not necessary.

Thermostat - Yes you can get away with a rheostat BUT, IMO is not a good long term alternative. As temps fluctuate in your home, there would be no automatic adjustment to your heating element. If your home (the specific area the cage will be) is reasonably constant temps then would be better. The true advantage of a thermostat is they constantly adjust. Middle of the day in summer when the house gets warmer, it will crank down even turn off the heat element. Middle of night in winter when the house is cooler, crank up the heat element. Always to maintian the temps you dial in.

I have two different thermostats...

Helix DBS 1000 - excellent thermostat, good for a single application constant temp, can get night drop but IMO gets way pricey and comlipicated wiring. OK, not complicated but messy.

Herpstat Pro - awesome thernmostat, with four seperate channels I can control four different cage setups at four differnet temps. Built in night drop. Did I mention it's an awesome thermostat?

I know Herpstat makes smaller single channel thermostats, I'd expect they were similar quility to the Pro, I just have not used one. IMO stay away from mechanical on/off units, they can stick in the on position and cook your snake. Not all that common but does happen.

Light - unnecessary but up to you.

Feel free to ask away on this forum, lotsa knowledgable folks willing to share!!! Rarely see the drama and/or flaming as seen in many other forums.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Your brother should just give you a pair of snakes for crying out loud LOL!!

>>Welcome to the forum and definitely go for the family discount option. B-day coming up soon? Early X-mas, Trick or treat
>>
>>
>>Urban legend - small snakes do better in small enclosures - UNTRUE
>>
>>Only reason to graduate the cage size is if you have multiple snakes and will be raising up small ones all the time like me.
>>
>>As long as proper temp controls and PROPER sized hides are provided, a baby will do just fine in a larger cage. Only other issue is that there are no gaps a baby could escape through. If so, you could get away with a smaller shoebox or sweaterbox inside the cage. Using the cage controls to maintain temps and provide a secondary enclosure should the baby escape.
>>
>>Taller is OK but IMO not necessary.
>>
>>Thermostat - Yes you can get away with a rheostat BUT, IMO is not a good long term alternative. As temps fluctuate in your home, there would be no automatic adjustment to your heating element. If your home (the specific area the cage will be) is reasonably constant temps then would be better. The true advantage of a thermostat is they constantly adjust. Middle of the day in summer when the house gets warmer, it will crank down even turn off the heat element. Middle of night in winter when the house is cooler, crank up the heat element. Always to maintian the temps you dial in.
>>
>>I have two different thermostats...
>>
>>Helix DBS 1000 - excellent thermostat, good for a single application constant temp, can get night drop but IMO gets way pricey and comlipicated wiring. OK, not complicated but messy.
>>
>>Herpstat Pro - awesome thernmostat, with four seperate channels I can control four different cage setups at four differnet temps. Built in night drop. Did I mention it's an awesome thermostat?
>>
>>I know Herpstat makes smaller single channel thermostats, I'd expect they were similar quility to the Pro, I just have not used one. IMO stay away from mechanical on/off units, they can stick in the on position and cook your snake. Not all that common but does happen.
>>
>>Light - unnecessary but up to you.
>>
>>Feel free to ask away on this forum, lotsa knowledgable folks willing to share!!! Rarely see the drama and/or flaming as seen in many other forums.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

>>Your brother should just give you a pair of snakes for crying out loud LOL!!

Well, I'd only want one, but yeah, that's my girlfriend's opinion on the matter too. Given that he and his wife are in the middle of putting her through med school though, I can see where he sees 14 baby snakes as a decent way to cover some expenses, and certainly don't begrudge him that. I honestly haven't discussed it with him except in the most roundabout terms, and it's somewhat dependent on other potential expenses whether I can afford the caging anyway.

Thanks very much for the welcome and the speedy replies guys - it's good to know that if I do decide to get one, I can just start him/her out in a proper cage. I had a feeling the advice on thermostats would be what it was, but it couldn't hurt to ask. I guess my price estimate for caging was pretty close, so at least I know what I'm looking at there. I will of course post pics when/if I get the baby snake.
-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

You could always come here and participate in discussions even if you do not get the snake.

We have had people here that do not have any type of rainbow boa's post here for months just to learn and BS on topics.

Most if not all other forums would reject such banter!!

This forum by far probably has the most OT subjects seen on kingsnake.com.

So even if you do not get the snake feel free to poke around and nit just lurk. (that's just creepy)
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Oh, believe me, I know all about the other forums here on kingsnake. I'm something of a regular on the leopard and crested gecko boards, and oh boy do some of the people over there get their underwear in a twist a lot. Of course, given that leopard geckos are seen by many as a "beginner" reptile, we do get a lot of fairly clueless people over there who get bad advice from pet stores, etc, and dealing with that constantly can sometimes lead to grumpy regulars. People seem to forget that there was a time when they didn't know it all.

You guys are very friendly by comparison. My lack of posts here before was more because I didn't really feel like I had much to contribute rather than being worried about a negative reaction. As far as I can tell, everybody here likes all of Mr. Colling's OT BCI pics (Luna is definitely a very beautiful snake!), and Jack the indigo snake, so obviously OT is welcome. I'll do my best not to *just* lurk I guess, though I'm not sure what I'll have to say that'll be useful. Anyway, thanks again for the advice and the warm welcome!
-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

And thanks, I'm rather fond of Luna and all the rest of my BCI's.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I would like to point out, Olstyn's B-day *is* coming up.

Mind if I jump in? I am the mentioned GF (wild caught, but I was living next door in grad school - so maybe not), thanks for agreeing with me about the baby.

I was wondering about the temperature issues as well. Ed, I believe, mentioned there might be people who use "do-it-yourself" thermostats/rheos? Might there be some websites out there? I'm actually a heat transfer/ fluid flow engineer by trade and have threatened many times to "borrow" some computer time and model/optimize the dessert gecko's heat profile; I am that geeky. I've got a bit of electronics XP from the lab, but would love to learn more from people who actually done it, thereby bypassing some of my inevitable mistakes.

Of course, google gets me tons of things I'm not sure I trust, so I bow before experts for guidance. Thanks in advance, and everyone for the great sharing of knowledge.

I should not be allowed to post before dinner... My DESERT gecko has a nice heat profile, I would guess my fruit eater would consider herself a banana "dessert" gecko.

(I will now go hide in my embarrassment.)

Never Mind!!!

LMAO!!!!!

>>I would like to point out, Olstyn's B-day *is* coming up.
>>
>>Mind if I jump in? I am the mentioned GF (wild caught, but I was living next door in grad school - so maybe not), thanks for agreeing with me about the baby.
>>
>>I was wondering about the temperature issues as well. Ed, I believe, mentioned there might be people who use "do-it-yourself" thermostats/rheos? Might there be some websites out there? I'm actually a heat transfer/ fluid flow engineer by trade and have threatened many times to "borrow" some computer time and model/optimize the dessert gecko's heat profile; I am that geeky. I've got a bit of electronics XP from the lab, but would love to learn more from people who actually done it, thereby bypassing some of my inevitable mistakes.
>>
>>Of course, google gets me tons of things I'm not sure I trust, so I bow before experts for guidance. Thanks in advance, and everyone for the great sharing of knowledge.
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

lol aww common frank get your head out of the gutter!!!! LAMO
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

Welcome to the forum to you as well. A rainbow boa would be a
great b-day present. Mine is in October.

When I mentioned a home project, I was (stupidly?) thinking about wiring a dimmer to the heat tape cord. Or you could probably get some sort of kit at radio shack or online. I'm not sure it's worth the effort, though, unless you really want to learn about electronics, since even rheostats sold by reptile supply stores are only about $20. And, of course, messing around with your AC house voltage could be very risky.

A lamp dimmer is pretty inexpensive, that might be a cheap alternative???

I agree with Dave, though - if at all possible, the thermostat is the way to go. It's worth the extra $50 - $75, imo. If the decision comes down to smaller cage with thermostat vs. larger cage without thermostat, I'd go with the former. In a few years you guys will be making the big bucks anyway, then you can get a larger cage.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I would like to point out, Olstyn's B-day *is* coming up.
>>
>>Mind if I jump in? I am the mentioned GF (wild caught, but I was living next door in grad school - so maybe not), thanks for agreeing with me about the baby.
>>
>>I was wondering about the temperature issues as well. Ed, I believe, mentioned there might be people who use "do-it-yourself" thermostats/rheos? Might there be some websites out there? I'm actually a heat transfer/ fluid flow engineer by trade and have threatened many times to "borrow" some computer time and model/optimize the dessert gecko's heat profile; I am that geeky. I've got a bit of electronics XP from the lab, but would love to learn more from people who actually done it, thereby bypassing some of my inevitable mistakes.
>>
>>Of course, google gets me tons of things I'm not sure I trust, so I bow before experts for guidance. Thanks in advance, and everyone for the great sharing of knowledge.

Thank you for the welcome.

Ah, the old lamp dimmer is already in use for one of our geckos. I just have this small 8 input processor laying around and it is killing me to put together some sort of amazing system to control heat and humidity. I need to get my feet wet with something smaller first, we've been talking about how to setup a closed loop system since the talk of snakes started... a long time ago. I just read what I wanted to see.

Well, maybe I just have to be the first... assuming we get a shot at the snake in question.

OK, who's got venture capital

>>Welcome to the forum to you as well. A rainbow boa would be a
>>great b-day present. Mine is in October.
>>
>>When I mentioned a home project, I was (stupidly?) thinking about wiring a dimmer to the heat tape cord. Or you could probably get some sort of kit at radio shack or online. I'm not sure it's worth the effort, though, unless you really want to learn about electronics, since even rheostats sold by reptile supply stores are only about $20. And, of course, messing around with your AC house voltage could be very risky.
>>
>>A lamp dimmer is pretty inexpensive, that might be a cheap alternative???
>>
>>I agree with Dave, though - if at all possible, the thermostat is the way to go. It's worth the extra $50 - $75, imo. If the decision comes down to smaller cage with thermostat vs. larger cage without thermostat, I'd go with the former. In a few years you guys will be making the big bucks anyway, then you can get a larger cage.
>>
>>>Thanks,
>Ed

Wiring up ma rheostat is fairly simple, I have a couple for shows - don't want to bring/use a more expensive thermostat.

Standard wall socket
Standard Light dimmer switch (rheostat)
4-plex metal box with combo light switch wall outlet cover
power cord
Cable retainer/clamp (for where the cord exits the box)

Simple to wire up, Cut the tab off the "hot" side of the wall outlet. Metal tab that joins the two together. Hot side is the colored screw, not the silver screw.

Route the power cord through the clamp and connect witht to silver, black to one of the brass screws and green to the ground screw.

Connect the two wires from the dimmer either by inserting into holes in the back of outlet (hot side) or with the two hot side screws (one of which has the power cord black wire as well).

Some assembly of outlet and dimmer to cover and cover to box and voila. One outlet is always hot and the second is dimmed via dimmer switch.

A few pics...

Note the dimmer wires going into the back of the outlet on the Brass screw side AND the silver screw side has it's connecting tab intact.

Note the brass screw side has the connecting tab removed.

-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Cool, excellent starting point for me. I see this forum is a pic for pic forum... I will remember to bring only the best pictures possible in the future.

np, not to worry on pic quality, we all like looking at Frank's cell phone pics.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>Welcome to the forum to you as well. A rainbow boa would be a
>>great b-day present. Mine is in October.
>>

Mine too, the 5th!

>>I agree with Dave, though - if at all possible, the thermostat is the way to go. It's worth the extra $50 - $75, imo. If the decision comes down to smaller cage with thermostat vs. larger cage without thermostat, I'd go with the former. In a few years you guys will be making the big bucks anyway, then you can get a larger cage.
>>

The consensus seems to be that a proper thermostat is the only good long term solution, and therefore unless sleepygecko figures out a way to build a reliable one on the cheap, I'll have to include a herpstat in the budget. I don't want to count the chickens before they hatch, but it's starting to look like my other possible expense is going away, so this crazy idea just might work out. *crosses fingers*
-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

>>Mine too, the 5th!
>>

Great, sleepygecko can buy each of our snakes at the same time!
Mine is th 6th!! I won't tell you what year I was born, though,
because I'm sure it's a lot earlier than yours.

Thanks,
Ed

Well we eat compliments on our on and off topic pic's LOL

>>Oh, believe me, I know all about the other forums here on kingsnake. I'm something of a regular on the leopard and crested gecko boards, and oh boy do some of the people over there get their underwear in a twist a lot. Of course, given that leopard geckos are seen by many as a "beginner" reptile, we do get a lot of fairly clueless people over there who get bad advice from pet stores, etc, and dealing with that constantly can sometimes lead to grumpy regulars. People seem to forget that there was a time when they didn't know it all.
>>
>>You guys are very friendly by comparison. My lack of posts here before was more because I didn't really feel like I had much to contribute rather than being worried about a negative reaction. As far as I can tell, everybody here likes all of Mr. Colling's OT BCI pics (Luna is definitely a very beautiful snake!), and Jack the indigo snake, so obviously OT is welcome. I'll do my best not to *just* lurk I guess, though I'm not sure what I'll have to say that'll be useful. Anyway, thanks again for the advice and the warm welcome!
>>-----
>>0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
>>0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I often have nothing interesting to say, but sometimes say it anyway.

If nothing else, just post pics of your:

0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

Thanks,
Ed

>>0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
>>0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

>
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Very nice! I will get a crested gecko... one day.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Very nice! I will get a crested gecko... one day.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed

Haha well, just be aware, unlike leopard geckos who pick a bathroom corner, cresteds just let it fly whenever they feel the urge, so cleaning up after them tends to be a bit more involved than the leopards. I only mention it because nobody warned us before we got her.
-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

>
>>Haha well, just be aware, unlike leopard geckos who pick a bathroom corner, cresteds just let it fly whenever they feel the urge, so cleaning up after them tends to be a bit more involved than the leopards. I only mention it because nobody warned us before we got her.

I'm used to that.

You should get an indigo snake, it would make a crested gecko look neat and tidy!

>>>>0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
>>>>0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.