Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I need some help and advice please.
Two weeks ago I purchased a baby Bearded Dragon that was approximately 6 weeks old. It appeared to be super healthy, great color, bright eyes and a HEALTHY appetite.
Well two days ago I noticed that he wasn't as active and wasn't eating, when I would reach in the tank to pick him up he would just let me.I checked the temps, and they were on target and I am using a 10.0 Reptisun bulb and a 75w Basking bulb that was 6 inches away from the light itself.
Then today I noticed that he was just hanging on, so I called the place i got him from (EBV), Around 3pm, and talked to his breeder, she told me that it was unusual that he went from being active to extremely lethargic in a day. She told me to soak him a few times in the week and bring him in on Saturday or Sunday. I did what she said and he perked up a bit, he was standing tall and seemed alert.
A hour or so later I noticed that he was back to being on the bottom of the tank. I figured he was just dehaydrated and was stressed because of it and he would respond to more treatment. Well I left around 6:30, went to dinner and just came home a half hour or so ago and found him dead. i am at a loss for what could have caused the death. The only thing i can think of the Adeno, but I highly doubt it, that's just the only thing I am finding when I search illnesses.
I have taken pics just in case she request's them for some reason, and disposed of the beardie. I am going to disinfect the cage and get rid of anything that cant be sterilized. Is there anything specific I should use? I am NOT going to be adding another Dragon for at least 2 months if at all. Is that a good "dry period"? Or should I wait longer to add a new member to the family? Thanks for any help!
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

Hi,

my opinion is that the dragon have Cokzydiosis in his body
and when you went from shop to your home the beardie
was stressed and then the Cokzydiosis is broken out to
a superinfection, thats why your beardie is died in a few days.
I had the problem in my first year of breeding very often,
i went to the show with solid and healthy animals, and came
back home with many very sick Dragons. So it´s very difficult
when you rise babys at sand. When he breed and take sand that
must be super sanitation. And next time please donn´t buy a Dragon under twelve weeks, after this time the immune system will be much stronger! So when you sterilize your Terra and let it for two month that will be a good idea but Cokzydiosis could be alive for 6 month or longer without any Host!!! So i think you should sterilize your Terra with a desinfection solution for Hospitals like i do, then you can sit a new Animal in after one Day of drying.

Hope i could help you....

Greetz

Ralf

Greetz

Thank you so much for the help. I am going to call his breeder today and let her know of his passing. We have a medical supply store near us so it won't be hard to get the disinfectant.
I was actually hoping to get a Snow at the Sac. Reptile show in September but, I will probably just look now.
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

You said after you soaked the dragon he perked up a little then when you put him back in he relapsed. Also you have a 75 watt bulb, what size is the enclosure? I have a 75 gal with a 5o watt and it gets plenty warm in there. It could have simply died of dehydration if it was too warm in the enclosure.

I agree that it could have been too hot, but according to the information provided to me at EBV and the numerous breeder websites the set up was fine. I know now though I dont need to use a specially made basking light and a flood light will suffice.
The dragon was in a square tank with UT heating and the 10.0 UVB and the 75watt basking bulb both by Exo-Terra. I am going to measure the tank right now since I can not remember the gallon size. It measures 2ftx2ft square. I have since taken out the basking bulb and at some time replace it with a flood light, what in your opinion would be a good wattage?
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

The correct bulb is a matter of experimentation. You need to accurately measure the temps. with a digital thermometer. Putting the bulb on a dimmer switch is a good idea. The bulb will heat the enclosure hotter when the ambient temperature in your house is hotter so some adjustability is required.

The high side ambient (air temp) should be high 80's to low 90's with a 105-100 degree surface temp. on the basking spot. The cool side ambient should be as low as posssible down to about 70.

That is what i had for my temps, though my cool side was between 78-80o, ambient was around 95o and the basking was no more than 99o. His breeder and the folks from EBV all stressed correct temps and we followed thier advice, though we weren't sucessful.
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

Your temps are fine, sometimes the dragons just don't thrive no matter what you do. Don't get discouraged, get yourself another dragon and enjoy. The only thing I would change is the 2x2 tank, they serve little purpose when it comes to your dragon escaping the heat. The temps that pro-exotics recommend are ridiculous, I have never had a dragon bask at 120 degrees without their mouth gaping wide open and going crazy. 105 is the most you'll ever need...period!....And you don't need a temp gun for that, it's just simple common sense.

Good luck with your next dragon.

Shaun

that knew what they were talking about. I almost died when I saw that I should have been keeping my Dragon at 140o basking. Now usually I am okay with how people talk to me but I am a little miffed by PE's vague comments such as: "funny how 90% of these struggling keepers claim temps are "fine" or "perfect", when they don't even know enough to actually PROVIDE the temp info, a crucial detail if they expect any positive help. when pushed for actual temps, they are either too low, or ridiculously too low."
If you bothered to read my post I gave what the temps were.

"it is time to get hip to temps, and better substrates, and better husbandry. the info is out there. we have to stop the cycle of disposable animals that die quick deaths due to lack of knowledge on such basic essentials as proper basking spots and temperature gradients."

Again if you read my post you would have seen that everything that was recommended by EBV for the proper care of the Dragon was purchased, there was no limit to the funds that were used to make sure it was a proper home,not that it makes a difference, the point being, i am not someone who goes with the basics, just to get by for my animals, we also spent close to 2 hours there talking with the breeder of the baby that we purchased.
Now back to the subject at hand, if I were to start a poll what would the optimal basking temp be? The thermostat on the AC never reads below 77.
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

room temp - 68-72

cold end enclosure with subadult - 82( /-3)
range temp with subadult - 90( /-3) to 103( /-3)

cold end enclosure with juvie - 84( /-3)
range temp with juvie - 85( /-3) to 105( /-3)

looking for! i just made a hard copy note. Thank you so much!!
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

if by UT you mean and Under Tank Heating pad remove it, dragons do not need it.

for basking bulbs you can use anything from normal house bulbs for lamps to flood lights. in my 40 breeder i use a 75 watt. try out different wattages to get the correct temp
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Judson
Beach Beardies

0.1. bearded dragon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

another classic example of low temps killing a lizard.

100F, 105F, that isn't even high enough to keep the animal warm on the basking spot. 120F should be your MINIMUM basking surface temp.

keeping the lizard with such low temps results in those exact symptoms, and leads to a dead animal. there is simply not enough heat (energy) for the animal to even get metabolism running.

you need a temperature gradient, but it MUST include the proper temps on the basking side. i can pull 140F surface temps in the PE parking lot, your bearded dragon definitely needs more than a balmy 105 to bask in.

this happens again and again, and is it a shame to see every time.

temperatures are the single most important factor in keeping a lizard.

you underkept the lizard and it died. it has happened tens of thousands of times. you will get the same result with your next dragon unless you change your husbandry.

get a temp gun to properly take the temps, and find a better source of husbandry info. East Bay Vivarium sells our Temp Guns, and they should know better about basking temps, that is a shame.

sorry to hear about your lizard, best of luck next time.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

140F????
I have never read any thing demanding more then 110.

I have a max of 110 in my juvies cage, however she stays away from that spot, she basks at a low 100 range.

Beardeds will not bask at the temps you suggested. When I used to raise beardeds outdoors, they will come out in the morning and late afternoon to eat, breed, lay eggs, etc during periods of hot weather(85 degrees and up) The middle part of the day they will remain unactive, hiding in the shade or under plants to keep cool. If the temps reach 95 degrees, the beardeds will sit in the shade gaping. Any higher and you have a fire drill. I have the best results keeping my beardeds on the cooler side(96-98 degree basking spot). Josh

I agree with Josh and the others. I have kept beardies in both indoor and outdoor, here in San Diego and in Texas. If it reaches over 95 outside Josh is correct they just gape and hide. In my indoor I keep the basking sites at 100 degrees and a good gradient heading to 80 at the other end of the tank. 98 percent of the time my dragons hang in the middle of the tank on their rock. I have never and would ever put a dragon under 140 degree temps. I havent lost any dragons to poor husbandry either.

I think Robyn is more interested in pimping the sales of temp guns than actual realistic basking temps. You can talk about how dragons bask in the wild at 130-140 all you want but last time I checked we are raising domesticated beardies in our homes and basking temps that high are a death sentence. If your so have so much knowledge about this why does everyone on this website completely disagree with you? I think I'm going to take the advice of prominant bearded dragon breeder such as the ones on this site....They would actually know the correct temps since all they do is breed dragons. It's common sense, If your dragon never leaves it's basking spot than it's probably too cold and if your dragon never goes to the basking spot than it's probably too hot, you adjust from there. It's not rocket science...Just common sense.

Shaun

We dont want to blast Robyn or talk bad about him, just inform. We all know a little about dragons. Some of us have been doing it longer than others and our dragons speak for themselves when people see them. To Robyn, we know it is 2008 we go to the shows, and forums, and any key speakers that come to town. We all have changed since beardies were first being kept it is not that we stick to the old ways, we stick with what is keeping our dragons healthy, big, and beautiful for the last....well for some people on here 10, 15, even 20 years that does mean changing with the times and learning new stuff. As for the heat I am sorry but I have to disagree 140 is too hot. I actually tried it in one tank with my big GG male and he didnt have anything to do with the heat, he actually stayed just to the side of the light where temps were about 106 on my temp gun. I gave it a shot and I have to "LISTEN" to my dragons. He wasnt happy and it did seem like wasted space in the tank it cut his active area down.

I have never lost a baby or rescue and have never used temps. that high. I agree with Josh when my dragons are outside and the ambient gets into the high 80's and above the basking spots become >120 (I've measured it) and the dragons hide from the heat. I think you should post other reputable sources that agree with a basking spot of 120 - 140 since I've never seen anyone recommend that. I hope your dragons are lucky enough to have a cool enough area in the enclosure to escape to.

High temps create low humidity. Humidity that is too low causes dehydration. Seems like a good way to make BD Jerky. lol.

Outdoor temps and temps in an enclosure are totally different. The sun will heat up a dragon more effectively than a bulb ever will. Its not about having the precise exact temps but choices for the dragon and in an enclosure it is limited so the high temps will be limited to the basking area unless you have a very small enclosure. Anything directly under the sun or bulb will reach 120-140. If its 90-100 then you will have a much lower ambient(direct sun and shade) AS far as having a very hot basking spot and dehydration this happens because of screen tops wich I dont use. I use a 45-50 watt flood 8-9 inch away from the basking spot wich makes it top out at about 135, but if you take a temp 3 inches away from the basking spot its about 85 on the cool side 72-80 thats 3 different temp ranges the lizard can use. Dehydration is caused by too much heat in a screen top enclosure.

I have to disagree. The object is to mimic outdoor conditions within defined parameters. My ambient and basking spot temps are controlled by thermostat, they are dead on whatever I program them for. None of my enclosures are less than 14 square feet so there is plenty of temperature gradient by design. Outside yes, basking spots reach much higher temps. causing dragons to hide. Outside UVB is greater so it's OK if they hide most of the day. Inside dragons need to bask most of the day to absorb enough UVB for proper function.

I don't use screen tops either. But it makes no difference except for blocking UVB, it their metal then it dissipates the direct heat from the basking bulb, and it tends to reduce venting.

Relative humidity is the amount of moisture the air holds at a certain temp. This is really important to understand in the winter. If ambient in your house is 60% at 70, the relative humidity at 140 is extremely dry causing dehydration.

But the bottom line is that 99.99% of dragons will not bask at these high temps. If you force them to, their health will suffer.

Ambient in your home of 70 degree F. 65 degree dew point. Is 80% relative humidity.

140 degrees. 65 degree dew point. equals 7% relative humidity. Dryer than the Sahara.

I believe you can achieve the high basking temp without raising the air temp in the cage too much by using low wattage flood light like 50-70 watt and raising the basking platform closer to the bulb until you achieve the basking temp of about 140 degree. The cage temp can be in the 70 and you still achieve a good basking temp of about 140 degree this way. I believe that's what Robyn does with his cage.

The bulb will heat up the air as well as the basking spot regardless of what tyope of bulb. I don't believe you can acheive a 140 basking spot with a 70 ambient. i have done extensive testing of many types of bulbs. A tight beam spot light will make the hottest basking spot temp. while increasing the ambient the least.

come on folks, bring your husbandry to 2008, not 1985.

temps are one factor of a proper setup. moisture, ventilation, soil, diet, those are all important factors, but temp is the key. you can't perfect one and ignore all the others, it is all one big husbandry puzzle.

OF COURSE there is a temperature gradient. we are talking specifically about basking temps, in the hottest point in the cage. but a proper setup will allow for the Bearded to make temp choices ranging from low 80's to 130F within the same cage (for daytime temps).

using a dry substrate with lots of venting (screen top) is what causes dessication and dehydration.

given a proper basking temp, a lizard doesn't have to bask for 8 hours a day to achieve its needs. it can bask for 10 minutes and be good. go back and eat, sleep, hide, retreat, goof around. come back later and bask 10 minutes more. but it isn't stuck under a cool basking temp of 105F, TRYING to achieve a proper metabolism for hours and hours a day.

in the wild most lizards DON'T bask in the heat of the day, that is correct. they bask on earlier or later. what are those ACTUAL surface temps during that useful time? 115F, 120F, 140F .

when it is HOT in the middle of the day, air temps of 90F or even 100F, surfaces get MUCH hotter, approaching 200F.

i haven't seen anything bask at 200F, but i have seen hundreds and hundreds of lizards, including Beardeds, use 130F every single day.

i see post after post from keepers that have lizards/beardeds/uros/collareds/monitors etc that are sluggish, eyes closed, no appetite, barely hanging on, all the cliche repeated symptoms, and there is always a temp issue. it is just too dang cold.

100F sounds hot to a human. sounds cold to a lizard.

funny how 90% of these struggling keepers claim temps are "fine" or "perfect", when they don't even know enough to actually PROVIDE the temp info, a crucial detail if they expect any positive help. when pushed for actual temps, they are either too low, or ridiculously too low.

it is time to get hip to temps, and better substrates, and better husbandry. the info is out there. we have to stop the cycle of disposable animals that die quick deaths due to lack of knowledge on such basic essentials as proper basking spots and temperature gradients.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Hi I dont know where you get your information and I am not here to down anybody but you are just wrong. I have been to Australia and seen beardies in the wild. My degrees fall on the subject, and I have never had a dragon past juvie age die before 6 years. I have a 13 year old German Giant. I use temp guns, and thermometers, and hydrometers. I also have many many years of research from myself and my cousin who is in Australia living with the dragons. 140 basking spot is too hot and also makes temp gradiency harder to acheive because if you use vision or critter condo cages that area being so hot raises the ambient temperature quite a bit as well. We all have things to offer here, we all have experience with dragons, and many other reptiles, and Josh, myself, and some of the others I know of produce some really nice dragons, with no problems and have an excellent track record with our dragons. It may work for you but let me ask you this...
...why keep the 140 degree temp when your dragons stay out of it 90 percent of the day. you can easily keep a 105 area and have your dragons actually use this part of the cage, instead of confining them to the other half, you said yourself they only stay in the heat like 10 minutes, that should tell you something.

It is very hard to say what caused that dragon to fail to thrive and die. It could have been temperatures, could have been a virus,parasites, etc. or something completely different (burns from a bulb 6" above the basking spot, perhaps?) Without a necropsy, all we have to go by is what we are told.

On the temp debate, I do feel 140F surface for a basking temp for bearded dragons is rather high...but not hugely. In my dragon cage, the basking area is wide and multilayered as much as I can make it, so the dragon has plenty of temperature ranges to bask in. The higher basking areas are 120F or a bit more (I have temp gunned them as high as 130F when my apartment is in the low 80's. but the cool end of the cage by the floor is still around 75F so don't worry about it being to hot). My adult dragon is in a 5'x2'x2' cage with plenty of running around space. I find she runs around the cage most of the time but asks not long after lights come on and after eating. Other times she is running about or resting in the cool end. Sometimes she is in her hiding areas but is alert.

I am not sure how effective a 2'x2' cage will be for heat ranges but I feel if the basking temp at about 6" from the heat source is only about 105F (I think was posted), it isn't hot enough. The setup plays an important role too...I have seen many setups with tiny narrow basking areas where dragons have to hang on for dear life to avoid falling off their basking area. They are either too steep, to narrow or just not big enough for a dragon to stretch out comfortably on. Pictures of your set up will be a good thing to provide as well.

A good rule of thumb for basking areas, they should be as wide as your dragon across their middles when they are lying down flat. For a typical adult, that can easily be 8" wide. Too many basking spots are those rubber vines which are horrible for bearded dragons. Even the large ones are no more than 3" wide. Same thing for most grape vine or those other woods for aquariums. Use bricks or securely stacked tiles or drift wood. Best are wide ones with slopes (not too steep, keep them no more than 40 decree inclines.
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PHLdyPayne

there is lots of good info in that post : )

first things- this post has evolved into general discussion, and is not directed personally to the original poster. this is husbandry discussion, not meant to hurt feelings.

yes, we don't know for sure why this animal failed, internet diagnosis is a tricky thing; : )

and yet folks continue to post very generic "my lizard is sluggish, setup is perfect, what is wrong with him?". paraphrased, but that is the general gist. without significant detail- history of the animal, how long you have had it, how is it setup (got pics?), temps temps temps, how you measure temps, substrates, diets, etc, without that BASIC info, how can you expect to recieve/give a diagnosis?

in my experience, someone that posts a "what's wrong" post, and says stuff like "setup is fine/perfect" but without giving actual details, that keeper is most likely lacking the actual knowledge of what a "perfect" setup is. that's not a fault, we all started ignorant of husbandry, and i hope we all continue to learn, but that very type of post points to basic husbandry and care issues.

85% of the time, temps are a significant issue. folks don't understand them, or even how to measure them.

i have seen plenty of lizards bask at 140F. we see it all the time here at PE. i suggest 120F as a MINIMUM (not 140F) and 130F is a great target temp.

i can setup a temp gradient from the low 80's to 130F in 10 minutes in a 10 gallon or 20 gallon tank, no problem. it is not "too hard" nor "impossible", you just have to know how to do it.

as someone else mentioned, the key is an elevated basking spot. raising your basking spot UP to the light gets you easier temps, using lower wattage. i can pull that 130F basking surface temp using a 45-65 watt bulb. if your bulb doesn't have to throw the heat a foot or more, instead just a few inches, it is much more efficient.

we use these wood stacks, aka Retes Stacks, to create elevated basking spots:

inside an actual cage, in this instance a Uro cage, it might look like this:

the idea is to create a temperature GRADIENT, with different temp choices for the animals to use. in this Uro pic, that top temp is about 145F. they use it all the time. the next level down is about 135, then 120, then 110, then 105, it drops level to level, giving the lizards the choice of what temp to bask at. it also provides a secure hide spot at each level, so they can find safety and temperatures that they can use.

on the ground, six inches away from the stack, it is 85F.

with this type of stack, if set up in a 20g long tank, you have also increased the usable square footage of the cage by about double! more room for the lizard to roam and use.

yes, i have seen Beardeds use, and thrive, in this type of setup, with these temps. they do spectacularly. i have also had this temp discussion in other bearded forums where folks were REALLY resistant, only to see some keepers try upping their temps from 105 to 125 and see their Beardeds blossom with life. eating more, growing more, being MUCH more active, etc.

someone mentioned using a SPOT bulb, and that is actually the opposite of what you want to do. use a FLOOD bulb. it is VERY important that the lizard be able to fit their ENTIRE body into the "cone" of the light. they can't heat up one arm or kidney at a time, it is a whole body heating. when you have a narrow focus, one that doesn't cover the entire animal, that is when you get burns. an intense beam of light focused on just one portion of the body. the lizard is still trying to make use of the basking light, but can't, and one small spot (or half of the body) will literally overcook and burn.

when your bulb light encompasses the entire body, the entire animal can heat up as needed, quickly (given proper temps) and move on.

someone mentioned that basking for just 10 minutes should be a "sign". that is true. but what you see in the "sign" is different than what i see : )

in the wild, basking exposes the animal to predation. they have evolved to bask in these higher temps for a short period, grab all the heat/energy they need, and move back to safety. that is what they do. they are not evolved to bask for extended periods, that is slow boating it, and not allowing them to accomplish life goals.

you see this applied with snakes as well. a breeder will say that a snake that is NEVER on the heat tape, always seeking the coolest spot in the cage, is telling you that it is too hot. one that is ALWAYS on the heat tape is telling you that it is not hot enough. you can read the animal if you just look closely. the same thing applies to lizards. if they bask for extended periods, it is too cold, they are continually seeking heat. if they never use a spot, it is too hot. i have seen many types of lizard species use basking temps up to 160F or so. i have seen snakes (Boelen's pythons) use basking temps up to 110F. it is very interesting.

as for seeing Beardeds in the wild, i have not been so lucky to travel to Australia. but i know terrific keepers who have, and who have taken their temp guns along with them. temping actual basking spots where they find actual lizards basking. that was 15 years ago, and really what opened our eyes to ACTUAL temps, how to measure temps, what they mean, and how to apply them.

i was in Moab Utah a couple of months ago. no Beardeds running around, but plenty of Collareds, out and basking, in that same type of arid desert environment, and i temped the basking spots well into the 130s.

wow, that's a lot of typing. check out the linked FAQ here for more on the Retes Stacks.

Pro Exotics FAQ on wood basking stacks

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Thats great idea! for heat, however I also like to give my beardie access to alot of UVB light as well.
For this, your idea stinks, only gets proper UV in 1 small HOT part of the cage, all secondary sites are shaded?
maybe I am wrong

UVB lighting should run the entire length of the cage...this allows it to be present when your dragon is running about or resting.

Not much UVB light penetrates wood, that is true, and having that UVB near the basking area as well as 'open' areas ensures as much exposure as possible. Because no commercial UVB bulb produces the same amount of of UVB that the sun does, it is important to provide supplementary UVB as well.

Exactly how much UVB exposure a lizard needs, is not completely understood. All we can do as keepers is make it available and dust insects or salads lightly with a calcium powder that includes Vitamin D3.

I don't even think its completely understood how UVB is needed by us humans either...as we do need exposure to natural sunlight for short periods of time to ensure proper health as well.
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PHLdyPayne

I was trying to figure out what sort of setup you were talking about. I like it. A bearded in that setup is going to dehydrate a lot less because it has a cool, humid place to retreat. I know a collard lizard breeder that keeps his animals almost identical to that. It's very effective and more of a natural way of keeping them. I wouldn't worry about impaction. I've kept/raised thousands upon thousands of beardeds on sand and natural terrain here in san diego and never had a problem. I would me more worried about the substrate drying out and affecting their eyes. Josh

Have you ever messed with different temps to see what works best for beardeds? Maybe growing up some babies or keeping adults one way, some another. You seem rather certain, i'm curious if you have any personal experience. Josh

I have never heard anyone suggest basking temps so high. I have had good results in the past with using what I thought were on the high side at 105-110, but that seemed to work for me.

Chris is the man, the myth, the legend. I cant find anybody to agree with your temps. Not that you arent taking care of your dragons I am sure they are awsome and healthy but may be easier if you lower your temps by like 30 degrees.

Was the baby recieving calcium? Was he having toe twitches? Josh