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So if I read what Jeremy wrote correctly it seems this has major influence on the breedings that will be done with Hypo Motley animals.

If you have a Hypo Motley het albino and breed it to an albino you have no chance of producing a Sunglow Motley, however if you breed a Motley het albino to a Sunglow you can get a Sunglow Motley.

If you breed a Hypo Motley to an albino you cannot produce a Hypo Motley het albino you would need to breed a Motley to a Sunglow.

If you want to get a "Red Devil" you must have two Hypo Motleys and technically the only thing a "Red Devil can be is a Super Hypo Super Motley thats the only way it makes sense I think. Wow just trying to absorb all this....

Interesting stuff!

I am not sure about the "can of worms" (no pun intended, I'm sure) that Jeremy alluded to, because genetics are what they are. I think through breeding trials we will gain a more thorough understanding of how boa genes are passed on with the Motley trait as well as many others.

This is the kind of thing that keeps boas interesting for me. Science, in the end, will either prove or disprove our theories about inheritance.

Denny

You pretty much nailed it down V. The odds Gods really have to be on your side for that Red Devil!

You've covered what I'm curious about. This is the way I'm understanding this "Hypo Motley" thing as well.
So in Hypo X Hypo Motley or Super Hypo X Hypo Motley pairings, Hypo Motley Boas would have to result in these pairings right.?.
One thing is forsure another dimension is added to the Motley projects allowing a longer life(marketability) for Motley Boas.
. . . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

I think everybody is in agreement that this throws a really weird twist into the hypo motley genetics.

I'm not sure I like the idea that breeding a Hypo Motley het albino x Sunglow will NOT produce a super sunglow motley. (homozygous hypo/Heterozygous Motley)

If Im understanding this right, that breeding would produce
-Sunglow motleys
-Albino motleys
-Super Sunglows as well as normal sunglows
-Albinos
-Hypo Motleys 100% het (without producing a super hypo motley)
-Motleys 100% het
-DH Sunglows

Yet as I mentioned, leaving out super sunglow motleys and super hypo motleys. Only way to get those, as it seems, would be hypo motley x hypo motley, or of course sunglow motley x hypo motley.

Kind of sucks, I really would have liked to have seen the homozygous hypo form of a sunglow motley. I think that would have been wacky, especially after seeing the super sunglow arabesques by Pete Kahl a few years ago, from breeding a sunglow arabesque x Lipstick DH. The homozygous hypo really did a number on the pattern of the sunglow arabesque. Gave it a spotted look instead of the traditional arabesque pattern. I think it really could have done wonders to the motley pattern

Wow, what a twist in the genetics world, I think so anyways

Those are some silly genetic shenanigans.

This does remind me however of a compatibility issue with leopard gecko genetics. Ron Tremper published similar results as i had where when you breed a blizzard to an albino(both recessive) you get double het albino blizzards. But, when you breed the offspring you should statistically hatch 1/16 double homozygous albino blizzards. Ron did many of these breedings and averaged only 1/64 albino blizzards from double het pairings. I thought this was weird and dismissed it as bad odds despite his large scale testings. I bred an albino blizzard to 3 female double hets last year where the resulting offspring should have been 1/4 normal, 1/4 albino, 1/4 blizzard, and 1/4 albino blizzard. I got 60 eggs and hatched 1 normal, 2 albino blizzards, and the rest were albino or blizzard. All i can think is that for some reason the combinations of genes seem to repel each other somehow. I'll bet that through future breedings there will be normals and hypo motleys born from hypo motley x normal pairings, they will will just be fewer than statistically expected for reasons i cant explain

This year i bred a male albino blizzard to 4 female blizzard het albinos(should result in 1/2 blizzards and 1/2 albino blizzards) and out of forty or so eggs hatched so far i have only hatched 2 blizzards and the rest albino blizzards. Riddle me that one

The albino blizzard X double het albino and blizzard results are what I would expect from linkage, when the albino and blizzard mutants are on different chromosomes.

a = albino
A = normal

b = blizzard
B = normal

double hets:
---A-b------
---a-B------

The results of the albino blizzard matings to blizzard het albinos sound like really good luck.

Paul Hollander

You bring up soo many good points....

You don't always get what you think you are. I just had a clutch of eggs hatch from a Spider female to a Lemon Blast. Mostly normals with just one pin. Large clutch too...

Look at all the whacky stuff. The Paradigm from a SHARP?? Come on!!! lol The Platinum Ball. Lesser Plat to SIB of a platinum? Now that is WHACK!!!

Also, about your point with hypo Motley to normal. I highly doubt that anyone would ever produce one. However, I have produced 2 super motleys from a MOTLEY to a Normal, and I have also produced Albinos and T positive Albinos from a NON het animal, where one of the parents was. It is usually just one. SOOO, if it does happen, it would be a fluke or freaky thing.

Genetics: lol It does make it fun though...

Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,

this is not a can of worms what you have opened, this is a ¨Snake Pit¨!!!!

So what will happen with a Hypo Motley het Albino x Albino and a Sunglow Motley x Albino??

Thanks

Steve (Barcelona)
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Hypo Motley het Albino x Albino = Hypos het Albino, Motleys het Albino, Sunglows, Albino Motleys

Sunglow Motley x Albino = Sunglows, Albino Motleys

So, no Sunglow Motleys and the only way to make Sunglow Motleys is Motley het Albino x DH Sunglow, Hypo Motley het Albino x Hypo Motley het Albino, , Sunglow Motley x Sunglow Motley......

Regards

Steve
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This is only IF the pattern Jeremy has noticed holds true and is not just a long case of bad odds. IF that is the case then in order to make Sunglow Motleys both parents would have to possess the albino gene in some sense (home/het) and one parent would need the Motley gene(super/het) and the other parent would need the Hypo gene(super/het).

If I understand Jeremy he is alluding to the "Hypo" mutation and the "Motley" mutation occuring on the same loci of the same allele. Meaning that although they are different morphs they line up on the same genetic location. That would be very possible because the same thing is happening with 5-6 different co-dom morphs in ball pythons (White snake complex) and it is also happening with 2 recessive morphs in boas (The Paradigm project).

That being the case the "Red Devil" is impossible. There is only room for 2 doses of a gene, one from the mother and one from the father. Meaning that a boa could only be Hypo/Motley, Hypo/Hypo or Motley/Motley. Chromosomes come in pairs, there can't be Hypo/Hypo/Motley or Motley/Motley/Hypo or anyother combination. You can see it in action when you breed a Hypo/Motley to a normal. The Hypo/Motley parent can either pass the Hypo gene or the Motley gene but it can't pass both and it can't pass none. Even if you bred a Hypo/Motley to a Hypo/Motley the only possible genetics for the babies would be Hypo/Motley, Hypo/Hypo or Motley/Motley.

If what Jeremy and others have noticed is fact and not funny odds then the "Red Devil" was a funky premature baby and not a Motley/Motley/Hypo because that would be an impossibility.

hy everybody i am alessandro.snce now i was following the forum just learning from the big boss.
the genetic interest me very much.
i doubt the red devil doesn't exist and i am agoing to explain why.
it could be true that hipo and motley are on the same allele but they could not be on the same loci...because otherwise there would never be a hipo motley.
the two gene need to be very close each other (intended as position on the allele), on the same chromosome but on 2 different allele, but they cannot be on the same place. so if only one parent has the gene obviusly the gene will be splitted because babies will get one of the two allele. i just imagine that the chance of having on th same allele the two gene could be very low
i don't have a solution but several question arise to me....does anybody have a super hipo motley proven?

sorry for my english (italian is my first language) and i hope i was understandable....the argument is so difficult to discuss in italian....imagine how could be difficult to translate it

alessandro

Mostly I agree with this. Rarely there can be a third chromosome, though (see the link for an example in humans). If this is the cause of the red devil, then expect them to be born dead or not survive long.

I would be delighted if motley and salmon had the same locus (position in a chromosome). But I have to play devil's advocate. Without seeing numbers, I don't think we can eliminate the chance of linkage yet. That would place the motley locus close to the salmon locus. If the motley mutant gene was in the chromosome from one parent of a hypo motley, and the salmon mutant gene was in the chromosome from the other parent, then most of the babies from a hypo motley X normal would be either hypo or motley. I'd like a couple of hundred babies from hypo motley X normal or similar matings.

Paul Hollander
three chromosomes