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The downside of the Brooksi discussions

Nokturnel Tom Jul 28, 2008 12:16 PM

You know Brooksi in general make up a lot of the posts on this forum. There's some very smart people on here who share info and there's some very experienced people but regardless of all this we see some very different opinions and it leads to drama.

The thing is I only hear people picking on PBs and Jellies with comments like much more breeding trials need to be done. Well, in my opinion this can be said for a long list of morphs including Sulfur, BHB Anery, Bone White Hypos, and others.

I saw this drama coming from a mile away. I respect most people on here who discuss Brooksi but once efforts were made to spell it all out for those interested be they new or old I started getting the emails.
I think I have a type 2 Hypo. I think I have a PB or even a het PB due to some Ball Python theory markers on their snakes. Now there's all these suggested names for many snakes that already existed and some for ones that have not even been produced yet?

For $%^&* sake people, we can not even agree on what a BROOKSI is. Sure these morphs are similar but they're just not the same as Ball Pythons or Corns or Pits.

Info on here for the most part is coming from people who have ONE pair of snakes. ONE ONE ONE! Those results that come from that pair mean something but with all the VARIATION in Brooksi you can not expect clutches of carbon copied replicas of the adults. I myself have seen babies from the same exact pair of snakes differe from year to year.

This arguing is futile and stupid. Until someone has several pairs of everything and strictly breeds them for years on end and then shares their results with others who are doing the same thing this is all just BS talk. There are absolutley not enough of these snakes to go around never mind setting up groups for a serious study.

All this comparison stuff is interesting but for example, would you just say all Hypos are yellow? No they're not. Some are Gold, some straw yellow, some bright yellow, some sulfur yellow, some orange, some red etc. I see a mix of colors when I breed Hypo to Hypo, in other words all this nailing down morphs and naming them is being a bit rushed.

Now we have new people getting fed 10 different versions of fairly similar explanations. How can people justify this to the degree they say with confidence that they know what they're talking about? it's not even being said like " well we think" this n that...now it is..."no, that isnt true, this is" etc.
WHY????!

Why are certain combinations creating unexpected new morphs?
Why was one person the only one to produce White Sides from Axanthics
Why do some thing seem neither recessive or co dom?
Why is it one person gets lucky and produces something new and they're nailed to the cross as a hybridizer?

Face it, we only know so much and we have a long LONG way to go. The name game is going to hurt this snake, it already is. When the Hypo version of the Eastern X Brooksi appeared many complained as it half implied the Eastern King was Hypo. I began call them Eastern X Brooksi, normals and Hypos. Why must it have a name? That is what it truly is. For morphs like Hybinos and whatnot, name them what you want but for everyones sake why not just call them Lavender X Hypos, or T Negative Albino X Hypos, this is the best way to properly inform everyone what they're looking at. What this boils down too is the amount of morphs, and variations of these morphs are appearing faster than we can handle. Even in the simplest terms using Snow as an example we have BHB snows, Axanthic type Snows and Sulfur Snows. I see Bone White Hypos, Flame Hypos and generic original Hypos. BHB Anery, Lemke Axanthic and New England Axanthic. Just because we have a solid starting point on these very different morphs doesn't mean the double, triple, and quadruple morphs are going to be easily named.

I can tell you that certain times of the year my phone rings off the hook and explaining....or rather correcting people on what they were either told, or in most cases what they misinterpreted is becoming more and more difficult. Chances are very few people will even have an opportunity to BEGIN to work at deciphering all this in the next few years. I am planning on doing my tiny contribution and I know a few others are too, but in my opinion talking about things on here regardless of how crystal clear they may seem to some is just not right. Things are not always as they appear! Too often there is one, or a few babies in a multi het clutch that leave us asking ourselves what the heck is that?!
OK I am all posted out......no wonder I never talk on here anymore.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Replies (10)

Brandon Osborne Jul 28, 2008 12:43 PM

Tom, I totally agree but.......there has also been a lot of misleading information by the so called "experts" on this forum. To be blunt, I have seen some flat out BS that needs to be corrected. Also, jumping the gun on some "theories" for the last few years seems to have been a common trend without looking at all of the factors. Too much speculation and "I am" in my opinion.

$0.02
Brandon
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Nokturnel Tom Jul 28, 2008 01:15 PM

Well I also notice people push for answers and "we just don't know yet" is returned with insults and accusations. Like I said I feel that more often than not the answers we read on here come from pressure and being rushed. It's pretty pushy on here at times and I know from experience that far too many people are just looking for an opportunity to take a shot at someone elses snakes.
You probably recall when we became friends on here I had anticipated someone taking a shot at one of your snakes and I dug into the archives to shut him up and put him in his place. You know damn well you were confident that your snake was what you said it was but oh no.....a few other guys had to vehemently disagree and bring negative attention to it. Same with me and the Amel Goini.
Some of the info that was on here concerning new morphs changed a time or two after results differed from season to season and that is what I mean...people demanded history...they got it...then they were shown the results...they had opinions which they were entitled too but then when results the next year were different the accusations flew and drama ensued.
I could deal with the "we just don't know for sure" answers from time to time but this snake just has huge potential and most people seem impatient and adament to figure it all out asif there's a deadline.
I am looking forward to the big show, maybe we will have some time to walk around a bit, a few of us Brooksi guys and see what some others have to offer down there and hear their take on some of this
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Brandon Osborne Jul 28, 2008 01:37 PM

I agree Tom. It seems like a lot of stories have changed lately. If you haven't noticed, I try to stay out of most of them.....but I do pay attention to what is said on this forum. I haven't posted much in the last couple of years, but I can't help trying to set some things straight when there is so much dishonest BS being posted. I'm not sure dishonest is the correct term to use, but misleading is a VERY appropriate word.

I'll see you in a few weeks and I'm sure there will be more on here. lol.

Brandon
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Tony D Jul 28, 2008 01:43 PM

Gotta say that I can't follow what is going on with the multi morphs. Frankly I think that the rush to cross even hets of morph has led to as situation where nobody truly knows what they really have. IMHO the calls for some test breedings are completely appropriate.
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Darwin Rocks!

Brandon Osborne Jul 28, 2008 01:49 PM

>>Gotta say that I can't follow what is going on with the multi morphs. Frankly I think that the rush to cross even hets of morph has led to as situation where nobody truly knows what they really have. IMHO the calls for some test breedings are completely appropriate.
>>-----
>>Darwin Rocks!

AMEN!!!! Tony, you hit the nail directly on the head.

Brandon
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Nokturnel Tom Jul 28, 2008 01:58 PM

Maybe eventually we can all commit one project that after babies hatch we all trade these hets to help prove things out. Something like that.... but of course the sex ratios and other factors could make that difficult. Still, the more people that we have work together on this the more believeable the results would be.
Like I keep saying this really happened faster than I expected it to. I intend to keep moving forward be it confusing or not but I am also hoping to work on getting facts for things that confuse us now.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tony D Jul 28, 2008 02:35 PM

What I've learned is that there will always be at least one willing to "rush" to market with an unproven genotype. In the end you only need to be happy with what you do. No real need to worry about what others have or do. If I have questions I just pass. Its not like there aren't a ton of projects to work on out there!
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Darwin Rocks!

daveb Jul 28, 2008 03:49 PM

yes, hahaha but
1) I am a brooksi fan
2) I have worked with them for a long time
3) I have no financial interest in them now and
4) I am a neutral party

so I expect the FedEx boxes to start piling up at my door at any time now. Please let me know what the snakes are het for so I know what to watch for

daveb
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in the light, you will find the road...

Bluerosy Jul 28, 2008 12:57 PM

I can apprciate the attntion the brooks kings are getting now but if every single person want to make a name or themselves by renaming the animals we will all have lost and destroyed something that is in such infancy.

Take the Sulfur brooks for example. So many people know this name. But there are ahrdly any avaliable to the market. I get requests on the sulfur lavs but people don't realize how rare they really are.

As far as the Pb and Jelly traits they are so unbeleivably new and are what is going to0 change this market for those who are getting started now.

I remember when I was importing ball Pythons in the 500 lot and saw all these weird forms. They were the garbage snake of the world at that time (below gater snakes)and the most i got was $25 each with most selling for $15-$20.. But then one person started naming them things like clowns, ghosts, axanthics ect and the market took off and everyone knows what happened. At the time I thought it was crazy and stupid. Biggest mistake i made. BUT I can't stand Ball pythons and i am not in this hobby for the money alone like many BP people are. But one thing the BP people did was market these animals and there was not all this infighting over a name everytime one person thought they had a different shade of white..

As you know i produce hundreds of Florida king morpsh every year and i see different anomalities and even different looking floridana morphs from the same pairings each year (not just limited to color but pattern as well). We cannot base a name or designation on a just a few examples and I think you hit the nail on the nead by saying some people are doing just that. They have a few snakes and are looking at pics and making suggestions on this forum.

Another thing is i have been breeding snakes since the early 70's and have never stopped or looked back. i have seen a lot of trends come and go. These Brooks kings are the best pet snakes and the perfect size , temperament and the tougest captives for feeding and breeding. they are BULLET PROOF.

IMO the Ball pythons come nowhere close to the type of snake a Florida king is. Now that we have the genes flowing things will snowball in a few years and the shy is the limit.

guess who? circa 1966-67

and don't laugh to much!
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!
"You do not breed them, they breed themselves. That sorta takes you out of the picture. All you become is a poop scooper and cage cleaner"
Frank Retes

Nokturnel Tom Jul 28, 2008 01:42 PM

Some of us fanatics saw this coming a few years ago and I think things are moving faster than we anticipated. I am happy about that too! This snake doesn't impress some people into morphs with their "it's just a .... fill in the blank". As we keep saying a lot of these snakes are not even available and it's not because we are holding them back, there's not a lot of breeders and even when you get eggs.....we'll it's not over til you see healthy babies.
As Terry Vandeventer told me when I was purchasing the White Wall Speckled King project, if this snake had been available before the Brooksi it would have been a much different story. It would have made more of an impact on the hobby.,.....but since there had already been a White Sided Brooksi most people won't even take the time to notice that one is far superior....to most a White Side is a White Side.
Now people who like morphs have a short attention span and the wow factor that comes with the unveiling of a new morph diminishes quickly. BUT, often it takes time, many years before people...sometimes those same people realize that what they initally were not impressed by is something that is actually very cool.
I have always felt sticking to your guns is a good way to keep succesful as far as breeding snakes and I know some of us are really happy we have accumulated quite a few Brooksi. Like you said, now it is obvious the sky is the limit and I bet lots of people take interest and begin working with the Brooksi too.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

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