Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It never ceases to amaze me how casually and comfortably so many Burmese keepers seem to be while walking around at reptile expos and other events with 10-15 foot pythons draped around their necks. Which is why I'm directing this otherwise very general question specifically to you all...

What is the best way to go about "training" (i.e. conditioning?) a snake, particularly a large boa or python, to be a trustable, handleable animal?

I'd love detailed information beyond the classic "five minutes a day" bit. This strategy seems to be a good jump off point but is far too simplistic and catch-all...

How about once your snake begins calming down after several days to weeks of the 5 mins/day technique? Do you begin to increase the duration of handling? For how long? At what point should others begin handling the snake too?

And how should one respond when that otherwise well-tempered python DOES bite? Should you stand your ground like you might to a dog until the snake "submits" and chills out? Or should you put the snake back as it's apparently too stressed to be comfortably handled? (For the record, I'm pretty sure I conditioned a ball python to be the meanest snake on the planet by employing this last method -- it seems now that every time he's ready to go back to his hide box he knows to just tag me on the arm 'til he tastes blood, at which point his chauffeur -- me -- returns him to his throne!)

I recently inherited a gorgeous and seemingly very docile Hog Island Boa from a friend who had to move. I was nailed by a large BCI as a kid though, so she and others like her make me a little uneasy handling-wise, even though I've kept and worked with a lot of snakes, many of whom have been chronic biters (the hondos, par example). This new boa seems super tame though and I'd love to be able to trust her enough to take her to educational programs with kids. If you have any pointers, stories, or other secrets to your success PLEASE share them here.

Thanks! And happy herping.

Brad
-----
1.0 ball python (Python regius)
1.1 hypo apricot pueblan milksnake (Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli)
1.0 hypo tangerine honduran milksnake (Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis)
0.1 montane egg eater (Dasypeltis atra)
0.1 woma (Aspidites ramsayi)
1.1 calabar python (Charina reinhardtii)
0.1 hog island boa (Boa constrictor imperator)

First off burms and boas are completely different snakes. I know that sounds very basic, but hear me out. Burms are known as the gentle giants, typically if you are going to get bit by a burm it will be within the first 15 seconds of interaction. With a little bit of work, they can be very trustworthy, just remember they are still wild animals and anything can happen at anytime. Burms learn by repetition, we use a snake hook any time we are going to handle a burm and never when we are feeding. They have learned to associate the hook with handling, so when the hook comes into the cage the food response goes away and then we remove them from their cage. They are very docile after that because they understand they aren't getting fed. You don't need to pick them up with the hook, I would break my hook if I tried to pick one of our big girls up, just rubbing on the head or neck is enough.

Boa's on the other hand can be trained in the same way. The difference is when they are picked up. Boa's seem to have a fear of heights, once they are lifted up they have to hold on to something and have at least half of their body supported. If they don't they "freak out" and the head starts swinging as if they are looking for something to wrap around. At least this is our experience. We used to have rainbow boa's and one day I was holding one of them with one hand and part of his body was laying on my other arm. He slipped off my arm and swung like a pendulum, when he swung back to my arm he bit me just to catch himself. Does that mean he's aggressive? No, he was just scared, back to the fact they can do anything at anytime.

Your ball python has learned that if he bits you you will put him in his cage. Next time this happens, don't immediately return him to his cage. Work with him with very slow movements. I talk to ours in a very calm voice, I don't know if this helps the snake but it helps me.

Most snakes are not aggressive they are defensive. An aggressive snake will come after you, a defensive snake will try to retreat. The problem is in their cage or in your hands they have nowhere to retreat to and if they are unsure about your intentions they will react accordingly.

We have dwarf burms in addition to our normal sized burms. People say that dwarf burms are mean and aggressive. That's not true, they are scared and defensive. I have one female the was captive hatched last year and she will tremble for the first couple of minutes when I pick her up, but with slow steady movements by me she calms down and has never struck at me. Does that mean I trust her? No, her fear of me puts me on edge because I don't know what her next move is going to be, but she's a lot better than when we first got her. I have another female that is an 04 import. When she arrived she crawled out of the bag and up my arm, we've been best friends ever since. I have complete trust in her.

What I'm trying to say is it depends on the particular snake and how well the two of you work together. The main things are that if you get bit don't immediately return the snake to it's cage, use some hook training and don't show the snake any fear. Your confidence will go a long way to claming the snake down.

Sorry this is so long, but I hope it helps.
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I think you're going to get a lot of responses to this post, and most of the responses will be pretty similar.
I think a great deal of getting to trust your snake is learning to read his/her body language. Just like you can walk into a room and see if your wife is in a good mood or bad without asking, you'll get to the same point with your snakes, too. Most times, if you're going to be bitten by a snake, it will happen at the beginning of your interaction.
NEVER reach into a snake cage bare handed to remove a snake. You'll probably catch the snake by surprise, and something warm suddenly coming upon it will likely illicit either a feeding strike or a defensive one.
Use a hook to remove the snake from it's cage, or if the animal's too big to actually move with a hook, just wake it up with the hook and let it come towards you of it's own accord.
Now the snake knows that food isn't involved, so you can eliminate the feeding strike. If the snake doesn't head toward the cage opening, reach in and touch the back end of the snake. One of two things will happen. Either your touch will spur the snake to come out, or he'll tense up, perhaps hissing or bridging his body to try to 'toss' your hand off him.
There are two schools of thought wehn it's obvious that the snake is in no mood to be handled.
If the snake is a managable size, you can drag his butt out and gently let him hold you until he relaxes. Notice I didn't say 'hold him'. I've found that just about any sort of restraint really pisses off a snake. As long as the snake doesn't feel like he's being 'held', they usually stay pretty calm.
The other thought is that if the snake is obviously not in the mood to come out and play, to just leave him alone. The downside to this is that you're teaching the snake that if he hisses and acts a little aggressive, he will get his own way. You don't want a headstrong large boid.
Once you have the snake, the main thing to watch for is obvious panic on the part of the snake. If he starts swinging his head around or really getting antsy, there's a good chance you're about to bleed. The best way to stop that fast is to get the head and neck of the snake on the ground. He'll feel steady and like he's getting away. It'll probably calm him down enough to continue with the handling, or at least get him back in his cage without any undue stress.
My experience is that if you can lift the snake with a hook, or even just guide him to the cage entrance, you can always replace the hook with your hand, or gently provide support from beneath his body where he's first exiting the cage and keep the snake cool, calm, and breezy. Slow movement and no grabbing is key. I genuinely believe that using a technique like this would even work on venomous snakes, although I have to admit I'm not so sure of it that I'd actually try it with a hot one.

VinnyButch

OK guys, PLEEEEEEASE help me with this one!

Just to add, this is my experience as well. I trust my 12 ft python MUCH more than my 7ft boa. Even though my Burm hisses constantly, I've found that it's just part of him. Let me add to that statement...I've worked with him closely, checking his behavior, and he has two types of hissing. He has a casual, constant hiss when he's out and about. When he gets stressed from too much handling, it gets a bit louder. If he's in his cage and it's close to shed time, it's a much louder hiss coupled with a coiled snake, coil shoving, and a general PO'ed attitude. (I didn't want anyone reading this {HH} to think I advocate ignoring hissing signs ). He's pretty laid back, but I wouldn't walk around with him draped across my shoulders. For one thing, he's too heavy, and for another, I think it freaks out the public and sends a wrong message in these rocky times.

OK, now my boa. He's a freaker. He's bit me twice...once after a shed (I shouldn't have been handling him), and once when removing him from the cage. I use the hook for him, but he's one of those panicky snakes with the swinging head. So, how do you safely handle a 7ft snake that is trying to grab anything with his tail and swinging his head frantically? When I tried to hold his front end before, he reached around slowly and tagged my wrist.

Is he destined to just be a "on-the-ground" snake? When I have to take him out now, I get a feeling a panic just dealing with him. I either need to figure out how to work with him or just get rid of him (which I'd rather not do).

Bottom line is you never know what may happen.

Laura, I have to laugh. I have the same issue with my boa. My pythons are much different then my boa. Thing has tagged me while it was on the floor and I was just sitting there, and then it tagged me while I was walking with it, and then it tagged me while I was sitting with it. So this talk about the snake is going to bite you right away is not true by any means. It will bite when it wants.
-----
0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger
1.0 Amel Retic
0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Red Tail
0.1 Blood Python
1.0 Green Ananconda
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa

Lovely...

The first time it bit me, I was holding it, it crawled up my shoulder, real slow, and just opened its mouth and bit my shirt. What the heck?!?! The second time was a slow motion bite, too. No strike, just a slow bite and slow let go. Weird. Then he sits in his cage looking so cute, "Come pick me up and take me outside for a crawl!" Shudder.

I said if you are going to get bit by a burm it will be in the first 15 seconds and that burms and boas are completely different animals. Boas can be very trustworthly snakes it just seems to take more time than burms. Laura was talking about the swinging head thing that boas do, we have a sonoran boa that does the same thing but with her mouth wide open. That will get your attention.HaHa

Boas need to feel more secure, they need a big footprint. Puting one around your neck like you would a burm typically doesn't work unless they are completely tame. You need to cuddle a boa, make them feel secure by making sure the majority of their body is supported. Boas will revert back to the insecure behavior a lot faster than burms will. We have too many snakes for me to handle them all very often, I handle some more than others and some very little. I'm now paying for that mistake. Some of our boas that were very easy to handle are now doing the swinging head thing and are more hissy.

I don't believe in backing down from a snake. If you look into the cage and see that they are going into shed or you know they are full of food, they need to be left alone. If you open the cage door and they start hissing, closing the door is the wrong thing to do in my opinion. Maybe pulling them out of the cage isn't the right thing to do, but some kind of interaction needs to take place even if it's just a stroke or two. If you close the door to their cage everytime the do some you don't like you are only training them to do these things all the time.
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

"Laura was talking about the swinging head thing that boas do, we have a sonoran boa that does the same thing but with her mouth wide open. That will get your attention.HaHa"

No, thank you. Oh yes, I understand the boa/Burm difference you were talking about. I'm hoping that my going off on the boa tangent didn't disrupt the thread.

"Putting one around your neck like you would a burm typically doesn't work unless they are completely tame."

I think my boa would just as soon choke you to death if you wrapped him around your neck. He's extremely squeezy. He cuts the circulation off my arm...turns my fingers purple.

"Boas will revert back to the insecure behavior a lot faster than burms will. We have too many snakes for me to handle them all very often, I handle some more than others and some very little. I'm now paying for that mistake. Some of our boas that were very easy to handle are now doing the swinging head thing and are more hissy."

I think that's exactly what has happened to me. I used to handle Toby weekly. Then as my menagerie grew, he was handled less. After he bit me, he was handled much less. After the second bite, even less. Now he's a basket case.

"I don't believe in backing down from a snake. If you close the door to their cage everytime the do some you don't like you are only training them to do these things all the time."

I think a lot of animals are like that, more so with simple reptiles. Basically, they work with simple conditioning-I hiss, they leave, hissing makes bad things go away.

Laura, I didn't mean that I didn't want to talk about boa on the burm forum. Heck, if I'm talking snakes I'm happy.HaHa I was refering to the comment about a burm will usually bite you at the beginning of an encounter and a boa might get you at any time.

BTW, are you going to the Daytona show?
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I am...are you going to be there?

I'm looking for a red tegu for a breeding project.

I went to a smaller expo in July and there wasn't a single Burm to be found for sale. I wonder what Daytona will bring as far as Burms are concerned.

Yes, we will be there. I'm really looking forward to seeing some of the new creations and I have a few things we are looking to pick up.

I think the Florida burm breeders will have stuff there, but I doubt too many from out of state will be bringing and big stuff.
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Boa bites Zoo Handler at educational show

http://www.wesh.com/news/17052801/detail.html

Oh, great... and just when I was feeling confident.

Thanks, Laura =P
-----
1.0 ball python (Python regius)
1.1 hypo apricot pueblan milksnake (Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli)
1.0 hypo tangerine honduran milksnake (Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis)
0.1 montane egg eater (Dasypeltis atra)
0.1 woma (Aspidites ramsayi)
1.1 calabar python (Charina reinhardtii)
0.1 hog island boa (Boa constrictor imperator)

News must have been really slow that day.

Why would they feel the need to report something like that? It's a relatively small, nonvenomous snake bite. They said they were trying to determine "whether it was the snake's fault or the handler"... How would the snake, an instinctive wild animal, possibly be at fault. A snake does not bite without a reason. She probably moved too quickly and spooked the snake. Maybe she had recently handled a furry animal. Who knows. If they start reporting on every nonvenomous snake bite they are going to run out of space on their server.

Hey just curious what the 1.0 and 0.1 and 0.2 mean when you list your snakes at the bottom.

(I didn't want anyone reading this {HH} to think I advocate ignoring hissing signs )

Dang, I feel like Bad Bart. Ha! Ha! Nah, I know what you mean, Laura.

Audio signs are usually a bit easier to read/interpret than visual signs, but you've done well in noticing & distinguishing between the different hisses. You also mention some visual signs, signs that I'll refer to as: evident visual signs. And I don't mean that in a degrading way, not at all.

Burms, boas and corns. They're all different, they each have their own style, their own body language. But yet, their body language is actually all the same. What I mean is, even though they each have different body language, the cause, effect, and remedy remains the same throughout. They each require our interpretation and quick (or not so quick) reaction.

I suspect that any difficulties you may have interpreting your boa's body language and your ability to deal with it stems from fear. Just like how dogs can detect fear in humans, and how they react to it, snakes (and nearly all animals) do the same. A confident, but yet respectful, approach is vital in building a trusting relationship with our captives. If we're fearful, we're unsure. And animals know it, they can sense it. We have to deal with our fear, first.

Put on the sweatshirt, winter jacket, leather chaps, welding gloves, fencing helmet. Handle your wary captive without fear of getting bit. Support it's body, make it feel secure & comfortable. Do not grasp it, restrain it, in any way, shape, form or fashion. Confidently make the snake confident that it is in good hands.

Always keep in mind what represents a predator, or a predator's actions, to snakes. Reaching towards the head from in front, above, or directly from the side is a no-no. I say that more for the readers in the background than I do for you, Laura, because I know that you're aware of that already.

What's the difference between taming a 3ft corn snake and taming a 7ft boa or 27ft python? Mainly, guts, confidence. The basic procedures are the same. Of course, one should definitely take more precautions with larger boids to avoid becoming another statistic, but, the basic procedures remain the same.

On another note - you made a good point about "walking around" with our reptiles. It should NOT be done in general public places, places where people wouldn't normally encounter them. The original post in this thread mentioned keepers walking around "...reptile expos and other events...". I hope that "other events" are reptile related and not the local park or Wal-Mart shopping center.

Incidentally, my wife came home from town about a week ago & said there was a young couple sitting on the bench right beside the main doorway of our local Wal-Mart with about a 3ft kingsnake. Dang! Just goes to show that even way out here in the boonies where I live you can find just about anything at Wal-Mart. People never cease to amaze me.

Is he destined to just be a "on-the-ground" snake?

For the most part, that depends on any snake's owner. Is your boa destined to be an "on-the-ground" snake? No. You'll get it figured out. I've got confidence in you.

Hang in there!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

(I didn't want anyone reading this {HH} to think I advocate ignoring hissing signs )

"Dang, I feel like Bad Bart. Ha! Ha! Nah, I know what you mean, Laura."

Naw...I figured you'd get a good laugh out of that jab! HA!

"I suspect that any difficulties you may have interpreting your boa's body language and your ability to deal with it stems from fear."

I'm quite certain my own anxiety has a lot to do with it. I do put on a sweatshirt hoodie, even though I'm sweatin' here in the FL heat. I use the hook to rub him, and to nudge him so that he's moving toward the back of the cage. Then I reach in from behind and lift him out. I don't want to grab his head, but that head whips around and he wants to grab me and crawl upwards toward my face. I know that's boa behavior, but I don't want him toward my face. I could get bit by anyone on any part of the body, but the face is where I draw the line, and that's what gives me the jitters. I guess what I need to figure out is how to keep him out of my face. What I would like to do is get someone more experienced than I to come over and teach me how to work with him.

Thanks for letting me post my boa issue over here...I posted on the boa forum a while back, but I find this forum to be more chatty in general. Boa people like to talk about genetics and breeding.

I hope this post isn't so old that no one is paying attention to it anymore. But I had a couple things I thought were valid that I wanted to share as well as ask...

I wanted to respond to Laura that I completely understand the hissing experience. I have a 7ft Green Burmese Python that's about a year & a half-old. She hisses all the time, but I'd trust her with my life. She's one of my sweetest, most docile snakes... kids have handled her (of course under close supervision), she's just makes noise. I thinks she's more complaining or showing displeasure, and not necessarily being aggressive. I guess it can be described as an "aw come on, guys" sort of thing. I wonder if Burms do this often?

Also, I think any snake can be tamed with the right amount of work. I have a Venomoid Monocle Cobra (spare the criticism) that has your typical hyper Monocle attitude, but with the time and effort I've put into him, he's like the rest of my Boids. Of course, I'm the only one that can get near him. Which leads me to my first question...

I have a few snakes like this. I am a true believer that reptiles bond like any other pet, they can bond just like a cat or dog. The only difference is their trust is earned and worked for, and not so easily handed over. For example, like I stated above, only I can only get near my Cobra. My fiancee can only get near one of my Redtail Boas, and I have an Albino Ball Python that trusts me only. Now my question is, when considering preparing a snake for educational programs or public forums, after all the conditioning and "training" in creating your trustworthy snake, what can insure it being friendly to others? Has anyone ever thought of this? Does anyone else have snakes that are super friendly/trusting with them and no one else?

My other question was, I wonder if the confidence-theory would work with an Emerald Tree Boa, LoL, so0o off topic I know. Everyone says Boas and Burms are different. Well, ETB's (or chondros in general) are different is well, and my ETB is my most vicious snake. And she's still young and still red. She's mean and sneaky about it. She'll strike or she'll pretend to be chill on your hand wrist and just grab onto you (that roll on slow and come off slow thing). And because of this, she rarely gets messed with. Those teeth are big, she's even gotten stuck in the back of my hand once and it was a ten minute adventure trying to remove her without breaking teeth. I know this is the wrong forum, but everyone seems so friendly here. Any ideas, anyone?

Haha, I know this is a bit of randomness, but maybe it will start up another good discussion. Thanks in advance
-----
Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

I love Hog Island Boas