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The last couple of seasons I had eggs that would go almost full term but wouldn't hatch, I would have large eggs with small hatchlings and what would seem to be more kinked hatchlings then would be proportional
I was incubating my eggs in containers with no air holes and upon reflection felt as if I was probably keeping the eggs/substrate too moist.
It just seemed to me as if the eggs were absorbing too much moisture and this wasn't allowing enough room for the embryos to grow properly. May be stupid may be possible. Not sure...BUT
I decided to do things a little different this season and see what happens.
I have always used sphagnum moss and didn't change that. I figured if my plan didn't make a difference this season I would change substrates next season. It is just easier for me to simply look at the sphagnum moss and gauge moisture.
So, the first change was using containers with air holes. I wanted air holes to help keep the eggs/substrate dryer.
This season I wanted to keep things to the dry side. The only time I even thought about adding any water to the substrate was if it dried all the way to eggs. It always dries from the edges in. I think the eggs draw the water to them much the same as plants do. This may be way off as well but it seems logical to me. And the substrate DOES dry from the edges of the container towards the eggs so something keeps the moisture around the eggs longer then the rest of the container...Anyway, I only added water if the substrate around the eggs dried or I saw any signs of the eggs starting to dimple.
The last couple of seasons I would occasionally mist the eggs as well. I just seemed to be afraid of them drying out. I didn't do that this season. Short and simple, I basically incubated as dry as I possibly could.
OK, after all the eggs were laid and put on the shelves to incubate a few went bad within the first few days, which is normal. After two weeks all the bad eggs were weeded out. There were 184 eggs laid and after two weeks I had 181 eggs I expected to hatch.
Of these 181 eggs 168 have hatched so far and there are still 11 to go. So in other words I have only had 2 eggs out of the first 170 that didn't hatch. AND there has not been one kink in the whole batch. It could be a fluke or I could be onto something here.
As I stated earlier I just feel that too much moisture absorbed into the eggs wasn't allowing enough room for the embryos to grow properly. This season, as well as the last couple, my temps ranged up and down between 78 to around 87 so I honestly don't feel temps were as much a factor as moisture when it came to kinks and eggs not making it to full term.
I will definitely repeat the same incubation process next season and will have a better idea if it was a fluke or not.
sorry to ramble on...I just felt a few people might find it interesting and/or useful.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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I would love to read any thoughts, opinions, ideas or criticisms
any of you might have on my above post
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Hey Jimmy, I am glad someone out there is trying to figure these things out. With the crummy season that I have had, I am open to any ideas. Your seem very sound. Thanks for the observations! I will try to pay closer attention to these things next year.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

Funny you should mention all that. You told me in a email about low hatch rates last year I believe. I have done almost the same. I have incubated much dryer than I did my first 3 years. My hatch rate so far has been much much better than the last few. I have quite a few to go yet but it seems to be working. I have only lost about 4 eggs out of 160 and outta the 3 clutches that have hatched, Im at 100% with no kinks. I also will be doing the same next year.
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I have come to the conclusion that there is no cure for snake addiction!

Those are some pretty thought-provoking observations, Jimmy. I've read that some types of reptile eggs hatch better with less humidity, but these are usually desert types. I think a lot of people pay attention to incubation temperatures and know what the ideal temperature "window" is. What you're suggesting is that there may be an optimum HUMIDITY as well, and I don't think most breeders measure this (I don't). You may be inspiring me and many others to get hygrometers to learn if there's an optimum humidity to better increase our hatching success rates.

Tim

i admit.. i put the eggs on vermiculite and then have a very thin layer of moss on top to keep humidity up. when it comes closer to hatching day i spray the eggs once or twice a day (it seems to make the eggs softer) I didnt loose many eggs... i'm thinking about 5 or so... but it does make me wonder.... keep us updated
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, A reverse Trio of Candoia, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping Turtle, a White Cheeked Mud Turtle, an Adult Rescue Iguana, and A Baby Iguana

Great post Jimmy. I've slowly gone to incubating my eggs (all species)dryer over the years also and have had much better hatch rates. I also only add water when I notice eggs caving in some or if I feel the substrate and it seem almost totally dry.
There are different opinions about temps but I've droped my temps over the years to 78-82 which have definatly not hurt. I get larger healthier babies across the board. I look at the high temp thing along with extreme temp fluctuations like many other things involving snakes which is if there is a chance it's harmful why do it if it's reasonable possible to avoid. Congrats on your sucess this year.
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Randy Whittington

I just wanted to ad one more thing. I personally NEVER spray or put water directly on eggs unless I am wiping something off with a slightly moist paper towel. I feel it's always better to allow eggs to absorb moisture as they need from their surroundings. I just wanted to add that as I've heard it mentioned several times lately. I again put that in the catagory of why do it when it might be harmful.
Once again great post Jimmy.
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Randy Whittington

>>I just wanted to ad one more thing. I personally NEVER spray or put water directly on eggs unless I am wiping something off with a slightly moist paper towel. I feel it's always better to allow eggs to absorb moisture as they need from their surroundings. I just wanted to add that as I've heard it mentioned several times lately. I again put that in the catagory of why do it when it might be harmful.
>>Once again great post Jimmy.
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>>Randy Whittington

One thing that made me stop misting the eggs was something Don S. Said. He mentioned in a post one day that misting can clog the tiny pores in the eggs. It made me think about what I was doing and thanks to his wisdom I am benefiting.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I definitely encountered problems "overwatering" greyband eggs late in incubation which resulted in head and eye abnormalities and kinking which killed all the affected embryos prior to hatchling. I have noticed better success with a couple of vent holes, temps closer to 80 degrees (plus or minus two degrees), and generally dryer conditions toward end of incubation.

I do not use tops on my eggs containers at all. I do use a homemade incubator made out of a 172 qt igloo cooler that houses several clutches at one time. I leave the drain spout open on the bottom of the coller (this is where the heat tape chord aslo runs out) to allow for air flow. I have never checked the humidity level but I usually did not have to add any water except for this year because I kept the cooler under a window unit AC. This actually helped me keep the temps very constant at 80 degrees. I would only add water if it looked like the eggs where starting to dimple.

Jimmy,
First-hand accounts from researchers who have found reptile eggs in the wild usually state the same conditions - humid (moderately-high but not too high) with essentially dry substrate. Meaning, the eggs do not dry out but do not wick up water either. I am sure periodic wetness is OK - it is the continuous moisture that may be the problem.

The "new" approach with Gila monster eggs is to have them sitting above the wet perlite, like on fiber batting sold in craft stores. This way, there is humidity in the egg box but the eggs are not touching wet substrate. You'll notice in some pics that some breeders have the eggs sitting on plastic grate (sold for flourescent light covers) above the moist substrate.

Great post. And I agree with your conclusions. Humid but dry is the best, if that makes sense.
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Mark

It should also be noted that some breeders suspend their eggs in stockings or netting over water. I've never done it, but I've heard of it.

I know python eggs are frequently incubated substrate free above water, which makes sense - as in the wild, a female python coils her eggs.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Thanks for the comments and input everyone.
This is part of what makes breeding more enjoyable. Experimenting, learning and sharing information.
One thing I did want to clarify on the temps...Although there are spikes that reach into the mid to high 80's the average is usaually around 78 to 80.
This season it seems that most of my clutches hatched around 60 to 65 days.
thanks again everyone
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I really don't add any water to corn egg containers

my temps go from 79 to 89

they are just set on a shelf around face level in the room with heater running all the time....(I try for 82 but you know that deal)

full eggs are problems even with balls..ask B Barczyck......he talked about this years ago with us......

I have kinked years and good years and dud years....I do the same things ......sorta......

I do better with thin females that are 80 degrees than fat or hot females......

I cut my candycane females down so much I expect them to die all the time......yet they give me 20 more or less since I put them on a diet.....they are thinner than any wild snake.......LOL...suxx....most other snakes don't stay that thin....they look more normal....but thinner is better...

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For more info on this topic you should listen to this web radio telecast. Ken

[url]http://www.kingsnake.com/radio/hammack.html[url]

www.kingsnake.com/radio/hammack.html

>>www.kingsnake.com/radio/hammack.html
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Hey Ken
I finally got a chance to listen to the radio broadcast.
Thanks for providing that link.
pretty interesting.
I guess I didn't come up with anything new.
At least I did come to the above conclusions, speculations through my own work and experimentation. Makes it pretty rewarding.
Surprising you don't see it mentioned more often. It works.
I've always heard the typical 1 to 1 ratio when it comes to vermiculite/perlite to water.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy,

Could you post some pics of your incubator set up showing the incubator and containers with holes? Thanks.
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God Bless Evolution.