Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://www.proexotics.com/care_beardeddragon.html
The above caresheet says tile is not a good substrate.
it says "Learn why" so please help me learn why.
I have my dragons on tile, with 3 layers of paper towel along one side(changed daily)
Why is it not suitable?
Thanks

i too have used tile and shelf liner as well, and will continue to use it. i havent had a single problem using this stuff. its the easiest to clean which means less chance of any health problems.

IMO i just think people are too hard headed and dont respect others decisions. i think they think they know all and someone differs from them they are wrong. if someone can show me specific facts on why shelf liner and tile is bad to use, please be my guest. we all have had or heard of dragons who have had eye and impaction problems from sand, but yet most dragon owners still use it. but i wont get into that again.
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Judson
Beach Beardies

0.1. bearded dragon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

I think it's just personal choice. Some choose to use sand, some choose to use tile, and people like to criticize each other...human nature.

There will be debates and people who disagree. There are people who say beardies must have an external UV source and people who say it's not necessary as long as you supplement with dietary D3. These sides criticize each other, too.

*For the record, I'm not opening a debate, I'm just making an observation about disagreements I've seen regarding beardie husbandry.

one thing that I have learned, there is many ways to keep a healthy BD

They also suggest a basking temp much higher than I have ever heard. 130

Who ordered the cooked Reptile?

Tile is in my opinion is the best substrate. It's easy to clean, textured tile keeps dragon's nails nice and trim and theres no risk of impaction like there is with sand and other partical substrate, you never have to replace it, its cheap and easy to install... They are sealed very well so no moister is absorbed.... I cant think of any reason why someone wouldnt use tile....

All of my enclosures (16) have natural slate tile basking areas. I have 2 rescues that cannot walk and therefore cannot climb or move through sand. their enclosures are 100% slate tiles. I have had no issues with the tiles.

i keep all of my dragons on non particle substrates and have recently switched magellan onto tile and i absolutely love it like the others have said its easy to clean, no health risks etc etc...i kno theres alot of debate on substrates and i think that while it may work one way for some may not work for others and thats why there is so much debate...ive read many things contradicting one another but i dont see any reason other than maybe a potential injury god forbid your beardie fall on it from a higher distance but even that is a slim chance
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1.0.0 Frilled Dragon - Frank
2.1.0 Bearded Dragons - Magellan, Galileo, Lizzy
Plus babies on the way! =]

Wow! I love that setup. Just had to comment!
Take care,
Karen

Thanks. That's a wintertime picture and the hides under the basking platform are blocked.

the substrate question is as "controversial" as the temperature question : )

i am not a fan of dry substrates at all. a good soil substrate, one that allows the animal to dig and burrow as they need, provides a moisture gradient, which is as important as keeping a temperature gradient.

with a good soil substrate, you have a relatively dry surface (but not as dry as paper, liner or tile) and a moister underground where the animals can dig, hide, shed, lay eggs, etc.

it is all a part of a larger picture. overall husbandry is a puzzle with many pieces, all are significant.

i have seen many, many lizards kept in a dessicating environment, just too dry, and they live in a constant state of dehydration. over time, that leads to organ failure, body failure, and death. that may take 2 months, that may take 2 years. one day you look in the cage and see "acute death", that is, the animal is dead with no outward signs. more often than not, that is organ failure. whether related to low temps or dehydration, the body just can't take it anymore and gives up.

as for the inevitable impaction question : )

with a dessicating substrate like playsand, or even tile, a dehydrated lizard can get impacted with lots of things, including simple foods like crickets and certainly the sand itself. it simply doesn't have the metabolism to pass things. that is complicated more when temps are too low to keep the engine running smoothly.

after keeping hundreds (thousands?) of lizards on a good moist substrate like soil, i have never had an impacted animal. as they say, they could eat and pass doorknobs if you set them up properly. certainly in the wild dragons are not falling over dead impacted from the very earth that is all around them.

as for the poster that apparently thinks i am a "know it all"...

why would you say that? you say that because i am discussing husbandry issues you are not familiar with? why be so negative? the forum is about husbandry, is it not? to exchange ideas and have a discussion.

post a productive response, just read, whatever, but don't just post to say "that guy's a real jerk". i'm not a jerk, i am passionate about reptiles, reptile husbandry, and seeing keepers have success. i spend hours posting in various ks.com forums, just not usually here : )

if i didn't care i wouldn't post, i wouldn't put tens of thousands of words on my site that get even further into husbandry issues and theory. i wouldn't spend the last 15 years trying to learn from, promote and support the reptile world. i'm no bad guy.

the bad guys are the ones that sell reptiles and give no support at all, just a "have fun, and let me know when that animal dies in 2/3/6 months, i will sell you something else".

no disposable animals. learn and grow. great reptiles for a great experience. let's be about that : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I have read dozens of care sheets

Soil has never been mentioned as a substrate other then a bin for prego females.
An interesting reason for it however.
I will stick with my pretty tile

Using whatever substrate is the owners decision. Heck! when you bought the dragon it was your decision. The question is what would the owner prefer and what is really better for the dragon. Sure the tile looks nice and clean and its easier to clean, but the dragon doesnt worry about pretty or clean and ive never heard of an epidemic about dragons dying of impaction in the wild where they dont have the luxury of tile floor. Impaction is due to not enough moisture and not enough heat simple as that. IMO soil is easier to keep clean, I pick up the poop and thats it. Tile you have to wipe it clean.

I'm still what I consider a newbie to this as I've only been breeding dragons for two years now but I think both sides of this make sense to one degree or another. Personally I use soil mixes in my cage and try to keep them moist underneath and semi moist on top. the dragons range all over australia including into areas with good moist soil and areas with dry arid climates. I keep the humidity low but think about the fact that where they would most likely take shelter would be underground, in rock crevices and other similar places that I would bet are moist. People make the same mistake with sav monitors keeping them dry all the time on nothing but sand not thinking about the fact that they spend much time hiding and staying cool except when it's time to forage or mate. My personal favorite soil mix for most lizards is about 25% play sand, 25% fine desert sand, and 50% good pest and pesticide free potting soil. You can throw some vermiculite in if you want to help hold moisture just depends on your needs. I find this mix to hold burrows well and you can put a little sand or mulch on top to suit whatever is you're keeping. I've kept monitors, skinks, dragons, and all other sorts on this with no impaction and no temp problems, and no dehydration. Anyway just my thoughts, I'm no expert but this has worked for me so far.

Tiles are better than sand in my opinion...though a well thought out soil mix can work too. Bearded dragons in the wild do not live on slate or beach sand either. They live in more compact soil/sand and semi arid areas with vegetation.

However maintaining a proper soil substrate can be tricky for a beginner, not to mention it does require more dedicated to spot cleaning and other issues that beginners may not think of or have time for. So tiles, paper towels etc, are simpler ways to ensure a healthy cage environment.

To help keep my dragon hydrated I serve fresh greens that are dripping with water and well gut loaded insects. I choose more water heavy and healthy insects than those with a tougher exoskeleton (ie superworms, butterworms, silkworms, hornworms instead of crickets, mealworms, locusts etc). I also leave a small dish of water or offer water from a bottle. I don't give baths often, as so far the two dragons I have owned don't like it. At best they just sit there and they don't even drink anyway. So I only bathe to clean the dragon if he ran through her poop before I could clean it up.
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PHLdyPayne

Robyn,

I am starting to understand your caresheet a little bit more. I think your explanation is very true. When I switched to tile I did notice that my animals were getting a little dehydrated.

It is not just a simple as swithcing to tiles like some make it out to be. There are other things that need to be considered. Some of which you mention and some of which you don't.

I switched to tile not cause I was worried about impaction as mine had been living on sand there whole lives, but, because I couldn't stand the dust, and the smell the sand would hold after several weeks. I like that I don't have to spend any money on sand anymore. Just take them out and clean them.

I can even see how you get away with a higher basking temp. But, that high I wouldn't personally experiment with.

Some of the things that I believe need to be checked when switching to tile is are, but not limited to...
-humidity
-wattage
-diet

Would I go as far as saying that tile or liner is not healthy for them....NO.

I think there are trade offs between both as far as health is concerned. You say dehydration from tiles. And, others say bacteria and impaction from a particle based substrate.

a sand/soil mix substrate would work well too, i agree. i have used this as well after finding my dragons liked it when they were in their lay bins. but then again you get those out there that will argue the facts that its grounds for bacteria and being damp it causes too much humidity.

there are many factors that will always be argued no matter what anyone uses.
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Judson
Beach Beardies

0.1. bearded dragon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

its funny because a lot of folks think "sand dunes", Lawrence from Arabia type of terrain, when thinking of a "desert" lizard, whether it be a bearded, uro, collared, monitor or whatever.

of course, it isn't like that at all, as PHLdyPayne mentioned, these animals come from an semi arid environment with a sandy soil. "dirt" to most folks.

definitely not a sand dune, which i agree, is really an inaccurate interpretation of the natural environment.

as for keeping a good soil substrate clean, we have had setups using the same soil for a number of years, never doing a complete change out. as you spot clean, levels go down over time, and you top it back off, but 90% of the soil is the same old soil, and there is no smell, mold or bacteria.

not any soil will do, setting up a good soil substrate is an intermediate challenge (not beyond the capabilities of a new keeper, they just need some direction) but the challenge of keeping reptiles is a large part of the appeal for me : )

thanks for the chance to have the discussion, i really enjoy talking husbandry theory : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Hey Robyn, nice caresheet. I apply the same techniques you do. The beardies respond great to it. I like the part on hide spots.

Humidity isn't an issue if you have good basking temps (130*). The humidity has a gradient, just like the temps. Beardies understand humidity and how to use it.

1.2. I don't keep the male in there year round. Just for breeding. Pic came out weird though.


The only reason you can see this beardie is because of the flash on the camera. Tight and dark!

"not any soil will do, setting up a good soil substrate is an intermediate challenge (not beyond the capabilities of a new keeper, they just need some direction)"

So what does your soil setup contain?

This is what I was thinking might be a good idea (correct me if I am wrong). Put a divider in the middle of the cage just as high as the depth of the sand/soil mix. Then on the other side have tile. So have it set up on one half of cage with tile and other half like Robyn said to do. Then see what your dragons like.
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Darien Drollinger

sales@highendreptiles.com
www.highendreptiles.com

You Cry, I Cry, You Laugh, I Laugh, You Fall Off A Cliff, I Laugh Harder

I just hate a dirty dragon. I even changed from soil in my nest box becaause of this. My animals are pets.

pets don't like the best possible treatment?