Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Have a question for anyone out there who has produced and or raised some Ivorys. Has anyone noticed two distinct types?--as in one that looks like a typical ivory, and one that looks like and ivory superstripe for lack of a better term?--I used that unusual snowflake ivory male to breed some females this year, and he has produced some animals that are really odd. Not so noticeable at hatching or even after first shed, but after a few meals about half his ivory offspring started to get really purple along the yellow stripe, and then a very subtle orange stripe running down the sides of the purple but thicker than the purple. A faint ghost side blotching as well. Almost a white on white pattern. The difference is subtle until you look at them next to each other and then it is night and day. No inbetween either. Two distinct types. Really curious to find out if anyone has seen this before. Thanks in advance.
Ben

here is a pic-a terrible one, but you kind of get the idea

.

2 year old "graphite" ivory father

here is a normal ivory sibling to the "superstripe" ivory

again-pics do not do this snake much justice

yeah i see what you mean!!! that does look like a "superstripe ivory". so half of all the ivories you produced this year turned out like that one?

I would say roughly 50% so far-I have 5 of them and have had 12 ivories hatch. I sold one to a friend, so I am not sure if the one he got was actually one or not--waiting to here back from him. I have one more clutch pipped that was a normal female bred to the snowflake. There is at least one very unusual baby in the clutch, and the mother is totally normal, as I have produced babies from her for the last 3 years. This was the first year I bred her to him however.

in my opinion this ivory SIMILAR to the pastel superstripe. yeah that is definatley different from the ivory lines i have. he looks more purple and yellow tan white. the "weird ones" came out white and developed the colors and stripe? roughly how long was the transformation?

I just looked a 3 ivorys that are just getting ready to shed--one looks like the ivory ss and 2 look like normals, so I would have to say that they probably hatch noticeably different, and I was just too busy to notice the difference. The ones I brought to the fire show had not shed yet, which is probably why I did not notice them at the time. The new babies hatched about 6 days ago and I can see that one is an ivory ss and the other 2 are normal ivorys, so I guess it is noticeable right out of the egg, and I failed to notice it--NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SAY THIS--glad I only sold one ivory at the fire show!!--

Ben, I think those are really cool .. Did the snowflake animal look weird as a baby or not? I would think the snowflake has to be what is doing this , it may be possible to make Ivories with another gene going on (such as Fire, vanilla, etc) and those would seem to look different than a regular Ivory.. It is also possible that a Yb may carry another gene and look a little different than a classic Yb but maybe not much different and when you make an Ivory with it is really mess with the looks. Here is an animal I made last year which could potentially be an Ivory Super Stripe as my 06 male Super Stripe was involved in the breeding to the female YB mom (as was a Pastel Yb so he will need to produce babies to tell for sure exactly what he is).. Weird stuff man! Anthony McCain...

yes-the baby graphite ivory was weird as a baby-got weirder.

the funny thing is this

5 clutches of graphite ivory(mothered by original dark yb)

2 were produced by orangebelly females that I produced and raised-3rd clutch was a ch and raised african yellowbelly-4th clutch was orginal mother of graphite ivory

1st-clutch was 7 eggs--3 ivorys-1 "ss Ivory"
2nd-clutch was 8 eggs--5 ivorys-3 "ss ivory"
3rd -(ch african female yb )one clutch was 6 eggs--3 ivorys 1 "ss ivory possible(still in shed)
4th clutch was 8 eggs-1 ivory-normal(kib clutch(kick in the balls clutch)
5th clutch-graphite ivory to normal female-this female has clutched every year for the last 3 years and has alway been bred to my original orangebelly male-always made yb babies-this year I bred her to the graphite for the hell of it-just pipped-day 57 still in egg--something VERY COOL sitting in the egg

Ben, have you been able to produce other graphite ivories or is that the only one so?

as of yet--no, which made me think it was a fluke, but after the unusual stuff he has been producing--who knows-has to be something to it-

good luck at producing more of those and more ivory SS. they are both great looking animals.

thanks--curious as to what they grow up looking like--I will bring some to daytona

Also Ben , something else that doesn't make sence to me is the fact that you haven't made a regular Super Stripe with the weird Ivory .. You bred the odd Ivory to YB's so some of the offspring would be YB babies , one would think that some of the YB's (actually about 50%) would be able to line up the "Mystery/Whirlwind/Specter" gene if in fact the Ivory had the Mystery gene in it, without the Mystery gene you can't make Super Stripes or Ivory Super Stripes for that matter. Unless there is something here your not sharing with us it would seem to me that you would ALSO have a pic or 2 of a regular Super Stripe sibling in the resulting clutches... Anthony McCain..

Anthony have you been able to produce superstripes by breeding a SS to a normal? i was wondering if in fact it does follow the rules as a pewter or bee.

Kinda an inconclusive question at this point.. I will say that my 06 male Super Stripe didn't reproduce itself out of a dozen or so eggs last summer and he also didn't produce babies that I would just call "normals" either, it was as if he made Whirlwinds and Yb's across the board.. Perhaps the odds just fell weird , or perhaps it can only reproduce itself when a Super Stripe is bred back to either another Whirlwind or another Yb/Ivory... That's all I can honestly say at this time, Anthony McCain...

those are some nice looking animals. that fourth one is a het. super stripe??

Those SS babies from last summer are from my original Whirlwind/Mystery gene female and an Ivory male in case your wondering. The other snake is a full Stripe Mojave female from a very weird female and regular male Mojave , just in there for contrast.. Anthony McCain..

ok that is what i was thinking

i was also wondering is there a super to the whirlwind without the yellowbelly gene? or is it considered just a dominant trait?

There's a rumor floating around that a Super on the Mystery side exists, if it's true I have yet to see it.. I would think there is a Super form and will be trying to make one at some point.. Anthony McCain.

So if your super stripe X normal only produced yellow bellies and specter/whirlwinds then that would tend to support the idea that yellow belly and specter/whirlwind might be two different mutant versions of the same gene. It's still possible they are just closely linked on the same chromosome or it was just luck but sounds like you produced enough babies to reduce the luck effect.

It's hard to see what the pattern is on an ivory but maybe the super stripe is like a rather dark ivory in that it has no normal versions an ivory complex gene left.

Now maybe there is at least a third mutation of this gene that combines with yellow belly to produce the purple patterned animals from the start of this thread. In this theory the new combo looks very much like a pure yb ivory but a little darker (but much lighter than the yb with specter/whirlwind combo super stripe snake).

I will post pics of another animal when it hatches which kind of throws a monkey wrench in that theory. It should be out in a few days. Graphite ivory to a normal

Randy , I think your statement makes alot of sence as I have basically been thinking for some time now that it likely is an allele/locus or whatever the technical naming situation thats going on here .. Only other thing I am not sure about is that "cross over genetics" possibility involving two very "similiar" mutants of which I kinda understand how that works or could happen and kinda do not, LOL... Anthony McCain..

Locus (plural is loci) = The location in a chromosome where a given gene resides. If you think of a genome as a town and chromosomes as streets, then a locus is the location where an individual house is found along a street.

Allele = Different versions of the same gene. Alleles have the same locus. If you took three copies of Da Vinci's painting, the Mona Lisa, and put a mustache on one and Groucho Marx eyebrows on a second, you would have the equivalent of three alleles.

Lesser platinum, mojave, their normal gene, and a few other mutants seem to be alleles and share the same locus.

Pastel and its normal gene are alleles and share the same locus.

Pastel and mojave are not alleles and do not share the same locus.

The normal version of the pastel mutant gene and the normal version of the mojave mutant gene are not alleles and do not share the same locus.

Hope that helps.

Paul Hollander

what you say certainly makes sense Randy... I was very surprised that on 12 babies, a SuperStripe x Normal did not produce any normals and no SuperStripes...

>>So if your super stripe X normal only produced yellow bellies and specter/whirlwinds then that would tend to support the idea that yellow belly and specter/whirlwind might be two different mutant versions of the same gene. It's still possible they are just closely linked on the same chromosome or it was just luck but sounds like you produced enough babies to reduce the luck effect.
>>
>>It's hard to see what the pattern is on an ivory but maybe the super stripe is like a rather dark ivory in that it has no normal versions an ivory complex gene left.
>>
>>Now maybe there is at least a third mutation of this gene that combines with yellow belly to produce the purple patterned animals from the start of this thread. In this theory the new combo looks very much like a pure yb ivory but a little darker (but much lighter than the yb with specter/whirlwind combo super stripe snake).
-----
___________________________
www.RoyalGemReptiles.com

Anthony

as i said in my first post

for lack of a better term--ivory super stripe

you would have to see it in person although that first pic gives you an idea--looks like a super stripe, but with in a white snake--has that weird side patterning-instead of gold, it is off white/yellow--almost green. Also the two tone stripe is there. Like I said--not claiming it is a super stripe, but it does look like one in the white form! No super stripe sibs-only orangebelly yb and normal looking ivory sibs-I have 3.2 of them and will be keeping at least 2.1--maybe 2.2--

Ok Ben , I see what your saying here.. One would think the orange belly line must have something going on .. Also Ben- Do you make "normals" from the orange Yb line that are not Yb's that have crazy orange in them, you know kinda like Oz's Orange Dream stuff or something?? Or is the orange look ONLY present as a YB??? I still say other genes can be present that will affect the looks of the Ivory.. I have a 600 grm male Ivory here that is from a pair of import Yb's (cb Ivory obviously) , the mom was a ugly Yb but the dad looked alot like what a Fire/Yb or maybe a Vanilla/Yb would look like, even at 600 grms that Ivory is as colorful as my Pastel Ivories, not just a white snake at all.. I also have a female adult Ivory that has some off colored scales that makes it look like " grey dust" on her back , never thought it was very pretty really but now I wonder what the heck causes that as well, it is similiar to yours but alot less extreme.. I think BHB made her , not sure however... Anthony McCain..

maybe the joker ball is a more appropriate name for it--white with purple and orange color-always been a batman fan

They look insane. I say you breed them to a hypo!

>>2 year old "graphite" ivory father
>>

That's kick a$$! Nice stuff Ben.

Brandon Osborne
-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

thanks--that graphite (or snowflake-have not decided yet)--also fathered something else very cool that has not come out of the egg yet from a completely normal female.....--dont want to jinx it until it comes out!

that is awesome. how did you produce that? is he the result of breeding a granite yb back to a yb?

he was produced by me 2 years ago from breeding my original orangebelly line male(who I still breed) crossed to a very dark wild caught yellowbelly female. I still have her--she was imported as an adult 4 years ago and it took her two years to successfully breed, but she produced him so I guess it was worth the wait. No one thought she was a yb, but I had faith in her and sure as can be she proved out. I have yet to see another like her. She is very dark, and has a few white scales here and there.

did he hatch looking like that or did he develop his pattern?

he hatched looking speckled, and I figured he would white out like most do at a year, but he got more intense as he grew.

Is she one of those Granite Yb's Ben, the mom of the graphite Ivory that is??? Got a pic of her? Anthony McCain.

no
not a granite yb--just dark wild caught--I originally just thought she was really old, but now think there maybe something more to her.

Congrats and good luck with all of them.
-----
C-Rodriguez Reptiles

Wow, your pictures really are even as bad as mine. E

probably worse!!!

you have some very awesome looking ivories there. congrats on top level animals
-----
Wayne and Ryan
Dark Continent Reptiles
www.darkcontinentreptiles.con

thanks!

doesn't look like regular Ivory, look much better!!!!

Those are really cool Ben. I would love to see those with the Pastel gene thrown into the mix. I can’t wait until next year when I can hatch out some Ivory’s.
-----
Albey Scholl
Albeys Too Cool Reptiles
Email Me

Are those from your orange,yellow belly line? btw very very nice.
-----
Jodi L Aherns
612.802.3980
www.groundgeckofreak.com

Jodi
yes--the male graphite was produced by my orangebelly line male bred to a dark wild female wild yb. The "ivory ss" came from breeding him back to orangebelly line females that I produced and raised-
Ben

been trying to figure this out for a minute, someone please help a brother out.

Pitoon

superstripes are made by breeding a yellowbelly het. ivory to a specter aka whirlwind aka het. superstripe together.

of a specter aka whirlwind aka het. superstripe?

With the gumbo of names, i'm trying to get what is what if you understand.

thanks for any help!

Pitoon

I know I've seen pictures before. I think Jared and maybe also Anthony have posted them but I can't be sure it was on this site.

Got the idea that specter/whirlwind is a lot like yellow belly - bright with an odd lined belly. I even got to see one in person once and I still couldn't tell you exactly how it differed from a yellow belly so I'm not much help.

I do think we can drop the "het super stripe" name and get down to just two (specter and whirlwind). It looks like a super stripe is a combo of one copy specter/whirlwind and one copy yellow belly so I don't think it's appropriate to call anything a het super stripe. From Anthony’s breeding results it looks like super stripe it's self is actually a heterozygous with two unmatched versions of the same gene (one copy specter/whirlwind and the other yellow belly). But unlike most hets we are familiar with neither copy is normal. Looks like we could think of super stripe like a cross line leucistic in the apparently completely separate lesser white snake complex (i.e. karma, the lesserphantom combo).

I don't know that anyone has produced a homozygous specter/whirlwind yet or what that will be called (or look like) but maybe if it is distinctive (ebony?) and gets a good name we can call the specter/whirlwind het for whatever the homozygous phenotype is. Actually even that is maybe not ideal. For example it would be better to say that a pastel is heterozygous for the pastel mutation than to say it's het for super pastel. What happens when we find a dominant gene and the homozygous isn't a new phenotype?