Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, i need some info on the difference bewteen Guyana and Suriname boas. I hear a lot of different sources saying there is not much difference between them other than specific location of origin. Can the two still be bred to each other? If so, what would it be called, a guyiname? Also which type of enclosure is better? A longer or taller one? thx

Longer is better 12 to 24 high 24 inches deep by 48 inches long or longer.
As for your Guyanan or Surinam question If your paper work says Guyanan or if it says Surinam. I think most people would agree especially from a marketing stand point not to mention What I would call ethical or moral or just plain old the right thing to do. Breed Surinams with Surinams and Guyanese with Guyanese. They have that specific Locality label for a reason in my opinion. I moved away from Locality Boas into more of Morph Colombian type Boas . So the strict locality people would have the best answer for you.
. . . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

The animals that come from Eastern Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, and French Guiana are the SAME animals. On into N. Brazil also. Thier are no defining characteristics to differentiate them all. They should be refered to as Northern Sheild animals, but no one seems to get that. Or just BCC.
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South Central Herpetological

Basically there is NO difference between the two. Correctly they should be referred to as Guyana Shield Bcc. The term "Guyana Shield" refers to a geographical part of S. America. Many folks including myself sometimes use the term Northern but to be factual Guyana Shield removes all doubt as to locale....TC

"Guyana Shield" is correct but people have their reasons for using the term Surinam vs. Guyana. “Guyana Shield” is like someone saying they are from the south east part of the US. You can be even more precise and say Georgia or South Carolina. I think my concern with trying to be so precise is you never really know and we are really talking about an area so small the boas will often go from one side of the river to another. I’ve concluded that unless I know and trust the exporter the best you can honestly tell someone is “I was told they originated from”. Also, the exporter doesn’t necessarily know where they were collected from.
Anyway as a locality guy I've thought a lot about this and I think I've reached the decision to refer and market my Surinam and Guyana boas as "Guyana Shield". I feel comfortable with this classification and I don't have to qualify anything with "I was told" or "they were sold to me as". Now - I will tell people if they want to know what I was told as far as if these originated from Surinam or Guyana if they want to know. More information is better than less, but I would also let them know I cannot be 100% certain. This topic is a can of worms and not everyone will agree and both sides have good points.

Good luck,

Kevin Madden

I agree with Kevin and Eric, but we gotta have label's Lol...
Joel

You're right, in fact everyone's right. I've seen thousands of imports over the years and most of the Guyanas come in from the coastal areas and they have "that" look. In Suriname, particularly in years past they were apt to come from the South and they have a different "look" especially from the Sippiliwinni Savanah. I've seen a few from the South in Guyana[Sippiliwinni Area] and they look like the ones from Suriname. They are ALL the same snake much like Corn Snakes here just with different looks. Having personally imported many thousands it is impossible to tell someone a specific locale unless you catch it yourself and even then they vary. This whole subject is one that is impossible to give an answer that satisfies everyone. They however, are very different from Amazon Basin snakes.....TC

I will call it what the person I bought it from calls it.
If they say Suriname and seem trustworthy, intelligent, and have a good reputation as well as a story that adds up, it's a Suriname. Same thing with Guyana. Note: I won't buy an animal advertised as "Guyana Shield".

As for the animals I sell, see above.

If I decide to pair up two animals in my collection, they will be matched with another animal from the same country "locale". I will not cross Suriname with Guyana and here's why. It's a pain in the BUTT!!! Do I really want to spend hours upon hours explaining to people why I have advertised an animal as a "Suriname x Guyana" via email or phone call? No. Do I want to spend hours explaining what the "Guyana Shield" is? No. So I breed Suriname to Suriname and Guyana to Guyana.

As a side note, I have a GREAT DISDAIN for those who breed a Suriname to a Guyana and call the babies all Surinames. Or they go through and "pick out" the Surinames and Guyanans. It's purely marketing and IMO, makes them dishonest. Idiots. Even dishonest idiots!

The way I see it, once I sell it, the buyer is going to call it what they want. If I sell it as Guyana and they want to call it something LESS SPECIFIC like "Guyana Shield", that's their business! And it's not incorrect to say that. If they're educated enough about BCC to know what the Guyana Shield is, they can make that choice on their own. I repeat: ON THEIR OWN!!! However, if they say it's a Suriname and I sold it as a Guyana, I'll correct them because it's not what I told them, it IS incorrect, and my name is attached to that animal.

Everything above that I said can basically be summed up with this:

I honestly don't see the reasoning behind generalizing something that's relatively specific if you believe it to be true with a high degree of certainty. If you don't trust your source and you feel you have to generalize to CYA, don't buy from them!! DUH! So many things seem like common sense in this world, yet so many things are not.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

This Boa was caught under a Rotting Log exactly 73 ft South Southeast of the Hoogy Doogy Village, wich is exactly 112 miles south of Paramaribo Pit Barbeque and Lounge.

At least that is what the Locale Baptist Missionary told me?

JJ

it looks like a BCO!

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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

I am from the Alterna community and I am very concerned with locality specific animals. We hold locality to a very high standard. If you can not 100% prove an animal is from a specific locality then it is generic. No buts about it. I have been listening to locality arguments about BCC over here for years now as I have been interested in and keep a nice collection of "Surinames" and "Guyanans" . I have found that there are no animals that are "locality specific". There are traits that people like to call "suriname' and others that people expect in "Guyanas'" but you will find after you see enough animals that they vary and are at the end of the day impossible to distinguish from one another. People use these lables for BCC for marketing purposes and that is all they are. " Northern Shield" or " Guyana Shield" is as true as you will get with regard to locality in these animals.

By the way, I never said there was a difference in the animal, just its origin.

Some argue there is a difference, especially within pockets of populations. I see this difference within certain groups. For instance, the animals that are from the Essiquibo River in Guyana tend to be lighter, brighter, cleaner, more colorful animals. Animals from Pokigron Suriname tend to also be lighter brighter animals. Both of these are of course in relation to the animals I've seen. Maybe if I see more, that "nice" factor would wash out due to volume and they would just be nice examples of BCC as I saw more "ugly" animals.

I've been looking at BCC for 7 years and I couldn't pick out a Guyana from a Suriname with confidence. But like I said, I'll stick to its origin because I don't buy unless I trust the person and with BCC, that's about as far as I can take the locality argument.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

I've seen 98% of all the Boas that Pete has brought in from Mike Roberts in recent years, and 95% of those Boas from the Essiquibo Delta are dark, dingy, and dirty. No different/typical than any other Exporter that receives animals from specific areas/collectors.
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South Central Herpetological

Hi,

I am originally from Surinam and I don´t believe that there is a differnce between the BCC Surinam and the Guyana neither between the Surinams and Belem. My reason to say that is really easy, because of the distance. There are parts were you walk to Guyana and the same for Belem.

Just my opinion

Regards

Steve
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Thx for the all the replies and info... I'm still fairly new to this!

Excuse me but I've been there several times. You can NOT walk to Belem from Suriname unless you traverse hundreds of miles of jungle which would take weeks if NOT months. Even to walk from Paramaribo to Opoora on the border with Guyana in a 4-wheel drive vehicle takes 15-20 hours if your lucky. These areas are NOT small but huge undeveloped tracts of primary forest. You simply CAN'T easily walk from one to the other. To go to Belem you would first have to cross all of French Guyana and the Belem Boas by the way are very different. All I have seen and had[many hundreds] have very short redtails similar to amarili. And yes I've been to Belem but by plane NOT WALKING OR EVEN IN A VEHICLE. Your either can fly or your fibbing about walking to Belem......TC

By the way way if you tavel south from Paramiribo to the Sipiliwinni Area it's about 380 miles as the crow flies. That is the border with Brazil and even then the savannah is 18 miles wide[I've walked across it] right thru the Wye-Wye Indian Reserve to the Cashacuchema Mountains[not sure of spelling] and only then your in Brazil. Suriname while small by U.S. standards is still a very big place with almost NO roads. The Bcc are the same but there is some variation just like with Corn Snakes here depending on where you are.......TC

I am glad you have been there several times and I hope you´ve enjoined it , I´ve born there. If you take the map you will see that Surinam ends where Brazil starts. The majority does but not everybody lives in Paramaribo and yes you are right that from Paramaribo it is not a walking distance not to Belem and not to French Guyana. From Albina you can take a boat and in 5 mintes you are in French Guyana and if you go a little up the Marrowijne river and for Belem? My uncle is 75 years old and 2 times a month he takes his pick up and goes to the market of Belem, do you really think if it is that far and difficult he will make that trip?

I hope that I cleared the story a little bit

Regards

Steve
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Today almost 100% of all herps exported[Henzens, etc.] are collected along the road to Opoora. You mentioned walking to Guyana. Unless you lived in Opoora that would be practically impossible. The walk would take days. About 85 % of the population lives in Paramiribo and all shipments originate from there. No matter I stand by my statements and have NEVER met anyone including Amerindians who walk back and forth unless they live on the border period! As far as Belem Boas go, check them out as they ARE very different from regular Guyana Shield snakes. Suriname is a beautiful unspoiled country and I have many friends there. Theo Henzen has been a friend for over 30 years. If your relative travels by boat to Belem even from the French Guyana border, God Bless him as thats still a long, long way especially at 75 years old. But I have seen many old people in the tropics do amazing things so I believe you. Do you know the Henzens?......TC

Of course I know Henzen the only thing is now his sons are running the business and I think that he is doing a lot of business now in the Dominian Republic. The thing with the Henzens is that they are buying all the quotas of Surinam to distribute to Europe(The Netherlands) and the USA.

It is a country with a lot of potential and the potential is growing and growing.
The flora and fauna is so big but they don´t have the knowledge or tools to explore it in the right way

I had some plans to re immigrate and set up a big farm........Maybe in some years I will take the step and go back

Regards

Steve

p.s. When do you plan to go back? I am always startingm in the Torrarica Hotel and Gus Renfro you remember the Torrarica don´t you
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If a farm were ever set up correctly with good management practices the sky would be the limit. As you know MOST of Suriname has never been touched by collecters in any way. I wish someone like yourself would do something like that. It's my belief you'ed be extremely successful. All the luck and just go for it. The quota's ensure a sustainable yield basis and it would greatly benefit the people living in remote areas.

All the best

TC

To have actually been there or lived there in Surinam or surrounding area.
You both are very fortunate !
. . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz