Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last year I bred my male Redding locale to a female CB lavender.
Out of 5 eggs - 4 required lizard prey to start feeding. One did take rodents out of the egg, but not for a few weeks.

The four that required lizards (and I didn't try lizards until I was seriously worried about them perishing) only needed lizards for two or three feeding and then they started readily taking rodents.

Now - I've collected a total of 3 redding locale neonates - the two males in '04 which I still have, and one female in '07 that escaped due to a failed lidless rack experiment. Given that she was collected within a mile of my home, if a neonate is to escape - I'm glad it was her, no locality pollution will result (an no more lidless racks for me - except for adult racks).

Anyway - all three took rodents no problem. However, it was unlikely that they were fresh out of egg when I collected them - they had probably already had several meals.

So - the question was, is the feeding phenotype of wanting lizard out of the egg from the lavender, the redding locale, or both?

I wanted to pair the lavender with a redding locale (other male) this year but instead I paired her with an antioch locale who has produced several clutches of good feeders for me. The purpose was to see if they ate better.

Out of seven eggs - one took f/t after first shed, the rest refused. However - I just threw in some live pinkies with them, and they seem to be eating them just fine.

That has also been the characteristic of that males other clutches - some take f/t while others need live for a few feedings.

Not enough data to be conclusive, but I do think it is fairly safe to say that the feeding phenotype of desiring lizard prey in that clutch last year came from the Redding, CA locality.

As soon as I get a breedable female (and I want one from within a few miles of my house) I'll probably know more.

But anyway - I guess I'm a bit of a nerd, but I actually find that kind of thing fascinating.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Your use of the term phenotype is somewhat odd. A phenotype is in its simplist form, the snake in your hand, no matter what it looks like or where its from. Its the expression of genotype

A phenotype is a product of a pair. The genotype is all the possibilities that pair could have thrown.

When talking about wild animals, a phenotype is what is found, period. But loosely, it can be an average of what is found in a paticular local. As kings have difinite local differences, these can be considered local phenotypes. In this case, phenotype is the product of genotype and natural selection. Better yet, in this case, what is surviving in a natural state at "this" time.

Local phenotypes can vary as the habitat changes from year to year, and over long or short time periods. Again, the habitat at the time allows individuals that are best suited to survive THAT season. That surviving phenotype is only a small part of the local genotype.

ALso geneflow is something that is very hard to understand(get a grip on) In most cases, there is NO geneflow PERIOD. Particularly with "specific habitat" species like kings. Therefore they occur in pockets.

When the habitat was very different then it is now, the habitat for kingsnakes was much more consistant. Therefore, they expanded their range. In this case, the genes flowed across large areas of land. As the habitat changed due to Climate, the population was restricted to pockets.

As these climate changes cycled back and forth, gene flow did indeed occur. But not necessarily in one direction. And not necessarily from a certain founder stock.

To understand geneflow. At all times it really does not occur in a lineal fashion. That is, If you take San diego kings, and compare them to Splendida(black or otherwise) Members from San Diego never have gene flow with members from Sonoita az. Never.

What occurs is, as these snakes find corridors along moist areas, river valleys, manmade canals, etc. Members at the leading edge migrate away from the center of the population. If these corridors are consistant enough, these different genotypes can meet and intergrade. These offspring are products of more then one genotype.

Now for the hard part. As these populations migrate into different marginal habitats, the base phenotypes will indeed change to fit the new enviornments. Over time, this also changes the genotyptic possibilities.

What we have now is, a getulus kingsnake, that is occurs in pockets across the western states. Genotypically, these kings can express(phenotyptic expression) and number of color and pattern characters that allow these populations to survive in different weather/climate/habitat conditions(weather is short term)( climate changes are longterm).

Some of these characters are, banding, striping, melanisum, spotting, blotching, and a range of bicolor possibilities from white to yellow, and tan to black.

These pattern types(genotypic characters) occur over all of the western getulus range. And are not a product of current geneflow. But are a product of historical genotypic characters.

Heres the thing, on a street level(our level) we simply want a name to call them. On a scientific level, there are many schools of thought as to how that is best served. Currently, Dna is popular. But this type of taxonomy will increase the number of species and eliminate subspecies(which is occuring now) But you have to consider, the animals are indeed the animals, how and why we name them, is not about the animals, but more about us at the time. Hence, scientific names change faster then a baby changes diapers. Yet, the animals are still the animals. And, in our lifetimes, a san diego king will never naturally have geneflow with a tucson king. There simply is too much unsuitable habitat between them. The question becomes, will they in the history of mankind(which is very short compared to the history of getulus kings)

So sir, you said you liked this type of stuff, I hope you like thinking about what I wrote. Please consider, as a student of these animals, my view will change as each day goes by. So don't take it as concrete. Do take it as conceptual. Cheers

When I took biology - phenotype also described behavior that was genetically influenced.

I believe this to be a genetically influenced behavior, most certainly poly-allelic that could probably be selected against, but genetically influenced nonetheless.

My sample size is way too small to be certain - but feeding preferences have been shown to be genetically influenced in other snake species numerous times, and my sample size of what I have produced tends to be clutches that go one way or the other, which indicates to me anyway a genetic component to the behavior.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Your thinking in a real "grey" area. Of course prey selection is based on genetic memory, but you are leaving out a whole lot of ground.

My bet is your kings reluctance to feed on mice is more based on husbandry then genetics.

Many years ago, I too have problems with some kings being lizard feeders. That is until I learned that baby kings are VERY susceptible to improper temp selection and even more susceptible to improper humidity levels.

Once I adjusted to those, lizard feeders were a thing of the past.

In your case, you should exhaust this area before you start to attribute lizard feeding to genetics.

In the case of getulus, there is little to no chance that yours are genetically predisposed to lizard feeding. But if you had some really small species such as some milks, you could have a point.

If indeed you were going to base this on behavior, I doubt it would be about pinkies, but more based on adult mice. As in nature, where theres pinks, there is momma and pappa. And its those that neonate snakes should fear, not the pinkies.

There is something very clear here, neonates have a very high surface to mass ratio. This should be kept in mind when keeping them. Which means, kings are very susceptible to dehydration, so their neonates are many times more so. Cheers and good luck

My bet is your kings reluctance to feed on mice is more based on husbandry then genetics.

I don't think so because I had another clutch of Cal Kings that hatched right about the same time, kept in the same rack, that readily took rodents - some f/t before first shed, some not until after first shed, but none that were difficult.

Now - the same female that produced difficult feeders last year produced a clutch that is feeding fine (a few haven't eaten, but I have no doubt they will - some took a little longer last year in the Fathers clutch, though not too long). Only difference between her clutch this year and her clutch last year that is obvious is the male, yet the feeding behavior is clearly different.

We know from GBKs etc that often scenting is required to get the neonates to take rodents, but that the WC adults are usually generalist, so I think there is some built in mechanism for more specialized feeding as young in some kings.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

It appears, you are basing your opinion on a few clutches, without the benefit of actually testing what I am talking about.

About other types of kings like GB's, pyros, and other mexicana types, I again was a pioneer in the breeding of these, and hatched hundreds upon hundreds of clutches. And had very very very few problems with lizard feeders. Oh that is, once I figured out how to keep baby kings.

I fear the problem is, you may rather make theories then actually test different conditions with your kings.

As a field worker with many types of herps, I will guarantee they use a wide range of temps and pay very close attention to hunidity and moisture levels in their bodies.

As you know, I always recomend giving reptiles choices. Please just consider this something to think about. Maybe even something to test, testing is fun and educational. Cheers

Maybe there are conditions that would make them more conductive to eating rodents - but the fact that they pound sceloporus like they are going out of style under the identical conditions that they stay away from rodents indicates a definite preference for reptile, as well as a clear willingness to feed under the conditions they are being kept.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Your missing the point. Without question, under your conditions, they perfer scelops over mice. But do they under all conditions. And more importantly, do they when in natural conditions(in nature)?????

I will tell you what we see snakes doing in nature. They are born with a fairly well set range of prey items. As in, kings feed on what kings feed on, and pits feed on what pits feed on and watersnakes feed on what they feed on. But, within that, they key on a prey item or a few prey items within their local. They do so, because that allows consistant success for the individual, and for the individual population.

Lets look at this, prey type is not very consistant. That is, it varies from year to year. Some years rodents are abundant, other years not so. Some years lizards are abundant, again other years not so. And yes, some years other snakes are abundant, and yes, some years they are no so.

If you take getulus as a whole. Most think eastern kings are more snake eaters then western kings. And most likely that is true. At least overall. But there are many western king populations that are every bit as much snake feeders as eastern kings. Of course in many western king locals, there are many times the number of lizard species available, so in some locals lizards become a prey of choice, at least temporarily. In some locals, rodents are the predominate prey, again, at least temporarily.

So overall, each local has a RANGE of prey items that allow them to survive. When one prey item is scarce, they utilize another, and so on and so forth.

In the end, I doubt very much any wild kings will pass up a pinkie if they come across it. They cannot effort to pass up a prey item that is included in their prey selection. That is, unless other prey items are abundant and easy to obtain.

Let me see, I breed mice, my mouse room is fairly secure. But on occasion spotted nights get in and feed on pinks and fuzzies. Hmmmmmmmmmm aren't spotted nights lizard feeders?????? They are suppose to be, yet, they still go in my mouse room and feed on mice. Even neonate nightsnakes(small)

All and all, it boils down to this, I have no problem having the vast majority of kingsnakes feed on pinks right off. But then I pay attention to giving those neonates a RANGE of conditions that support their feeding response. The truth is, and many here will testify to this, a baby king will feed so well, it will consume anything it can catch including your fingers. The absolute truth is, snakes are suppose to have a healthy feeding responce, not a limited feeding responce. Why are some of yours having a limited feeding responce? The answer is simple to me. Your conditions are marginal. Your stronger neonates have a superior feeding responce, and your weaker individuals do not. The real question is, why do you have weaker individuals?

(please do not get mad at this) Again, your theories are based on the thought that you think you have great conditions, yet again, your results are telling you that your conditions are marginal. Your results are telling you one thing, and your mind is protecting you and relocating the blame to something out of your control.

Please understand, this is simple, take a poll of who has your problems and who doesn't. We do not even have to include names or species. You will find that some have your problems, and so do not. Its the ones that do not, that sinks your theories. Again to me, its like the poor mouse breeder theory. You tend to blame something out of your control. Sir, all that does is limit your progress as a keeper. Even if your right, it does not allow for your own growth.

Is there a possibility your right, sure, just a really small one. OH maybe a 2% chance your right. My bet is, the answer lies in the other 98%.

The proof is in your responses to these posts, instead of asking for more information. You simply stick to your theories without testing, checking, or investigating.

Food for thought, I just spend time with a big time(large numbers) snake breeder. They produce thousands of cal kings. They never feed them lizards. They all must feed on pinks before they ship them. I wonder what percentage they lose due to not feeding on pinks? Cheers

In the end, I doubt very much any wild kings will pass up a pinkie if they come across it.

I'm not sure that is true fresh out of the egg, when they are far more vulnerable to being killed by the parent rodent. It could be that at least in some locales, depending upon the wild rodents, those that stay away from rodents for the first few months are more likely to survive and pass on their genes.

I honestly don't know that that's the case - but even though my sample size is way too small to say anything even near conclusive, the observation was that one clutch demanded lizard prey while another clutch was happy with rodent, and the following year, same mother different father, the clutch is happy with rodent.

There's more than one possible explanation to my observation, no doubt - hopefully I'll have a female from the locale sometime soon and get more data that isn't mixed locale.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Hatchling kings are moisture-loss sensitive. In many cases, some hatchlings that cannot access a certain humidity range may want to hide and conserve energy, not feed. That is my guess. It is those hatchlings that I would try cooling for awhile, and they would eat after that. But did I really need to cool them? Maybe moisture was the key?

I know you have some in the exact same rack that took to pinks w/o trouble. Still, I saw a better feed response with hatchlings when I kept a moist hide in their cages, since where I live the humidity can be low in the Fall when I am trying to get hatchlings feeding. Especially with montane kings and even graybands. It can't hurt to try.

Just like hatchlings can warm up quickly and cool off quickly compared to adults, so can they hydrate and dehydrate quickly compared to adults.
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Mark

I do appreciate your input on this.
I'm not sure I agree, but it does give me something to think about.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Thanks Frank,

As usual, I appreciate your insights, I'm sure many people here do. Can you give me suggestions on how I could provide the range of conditions that would be helpful in a classic shoebox or larger style enclosure. Thanks,
Bob.

The problem is, what is a classic shoebox system?

The key is to approach any system with a mindset of achieving a range of temps. The key is room temperature. If you can have a room temperature around 70 to 75F, they the use of heat strips or small spot lites, can easily allow a range from room temp, to about 100F. This range seems to work very well for most snakes. Of course lover temps are good too, Say from the mid fifties. I bred many boa and python species by allowing choices from 55F to 100F.

Back to shoebox systems. The key here is to not enclose the box. That is have the rack part so deep it maintains the heat inside the sweater box. You want about 2/3's to 3/4 of the box exposed to room temps.

of course sometimes you may have to get creative. For instance, I build a wall of python cages, and I enclosed the space behind the cages and air conditioned only that area. That way, I did not waste energy cooling the whole room.

Soon such places as home depot will clear out their cooling stock and get ready for Christmas stuff. They will cut the prices ALOT. You can get room air conditioners for well under $100.

Of course as always, there are many many ways to skin this cat. And exactly what fits your needs will only be known by you. Heck, one poster here placed ice in their cages when he needed to. That is going out of your way to achieve great choices. Cheers and good luck

I put ice in on hot days because my house is warmer than most, Redding heat cooled only by a swamp cooler. When the inside temp hits 90 (not often but happens) - ice is a necessary part of their husbandry.

I really do need to invest in an AC system - unfortunately I'm not allowed (HOA) to use the window kind, even the room AC units that only vent in the window. They say it ruins the look of the community.

I may try to get a room AC unit that vents through the floor to underneath the house.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I've been wondering about your "choices". I was thinking how practical it might be to cut an acces hole out the rear of a Vision, attach clear flexible tubing and run it into a blacked out aquarium lying on the cool cellar floor up against an outside wall allowing the animal to go to the coolest area I can easily work with even in summer. Your posts are always food for thought. Thanks again.
Bob.