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Kinda new to breeding snakes so thanks in advance for any advice. Our oldest Blond laid 2 eggs in it's hide box early last week. They were possibly duds to begin with but by the time I found them they were toast anyway. I placed her into a "nesting box" ( Igloo with moistened sphagnum ) where she laid another egg two days ago & one today. These eggs look viable. She still retains two eggs. Apparently, she doesn't like the options given her.
Am I just missing out on the obvious in the husbandry tactics or what? Any techniques to encourage spitting out those last 2 eggs?

If she laid one today why do you think the others are not going to be laid soon??
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

I didn't know that it was usual pattern that they be laid over the course of a week or more. Aren't most clutches pushed out about the same time?

>> These eggs look viable. She still retains two eggs. Apparently, she doesn't like the options given her.

Hi Danny,

I very much doubt it has anything to do with her not liking her egg-laying options. It just sounds like she has a dystocia (egg-binding) issue.

I'd be quite surprised if those last two eggs were indeed viable after such a long hiatus. Egg-binding almost always occurs when the eggs are "slugs". It does happen when there are good eggs, but not near as often.

>>Am I just missing out on the obvious in the husbandry tactics or what?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean here. Maybe you're asking if your husbandry methods have caused her to have these problems?? If that is your question, then my answer is I highly doubt it. A dystocia often has to do with under-developed muscle tone or maybe a calcium deficiency. If you've been feeding her adult rodents, then I doubt the latter is the case.

Taking her out and handling her often during the "off-season" will usually build her muscle up enough for a healthy egg deposition.

If you've provided her with a suitable nest box, she should usually lay there, but a female will sometimes lay bad eggs in an alternative location a day or two before the healthy remainder is laid. Any longer than that means she's having issues laying the eggs.

Subocs will lay healthy clutches directly on the substrate (or even in/near the water bowl) if there is no suitable nesting place. Laying on the substrate usually doesn't do the eggs harm as long as they're found early after laying.

>>Any techniques to encourage spitting out those last 2 eggs?

Yes, get a small gauge needle and a decent-sized syringe and aspirate them (suck the liquid out). At this point, those eggs are most-likely bad anyway. Since she's having trouble passing them, aspirating them will shrink them down until they're just collapsed eggshell. She'll pass that remaining shell much easier.

Best of luck with her and let us know how she fairs.

Dusty Rhoads
Suboc.com

Dusty:

Did I miss something??? He had an egg laid THE SAME DAY he posted the question about the last two.!!

Why would you think she was eggbound???

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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

>>Dusty:
>>
>>Did I miss something??? He had an egg laid THE SAME DAY he posted the question about the last two.!!

>>Why would you think she was eggbound???
>>
>>
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>>Lloyd Heilbrunn
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>>Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

Lloyd, reread his post below. Especially where I boldened and highlighted words...Not to be a smart aleck, but just to show you where I deduced this is a clear dystocia. Of course, the very definition of a dystocia is difficulty in or failure to lay eggs.

>>Kinda new to breeding snakes so thanks in advance for any advice. Our oldest Blond laid 2 eggs in it's hide box early last week. They were possibly duds to begin with but by the time I found them they were toast anyway. I placed her into a "nesting box" ( Igloo with moistened sphagnum ) where she laid another egg two days ago & one today. These eggs look viable. She still retains two eggs.

His post was on Satuday the 2nd of August. "Early last week" means that she laid her first two (in the hide box) as far back as July 20th or 21st, or thereabout. That's a very HUGE, dramatic delay in laying her other eggs, more than ten or twelve days. Even if she would have laid them early the same week would have been a dystocia. A non-bound, healthy female should be done laying her eggs in 24 hours or less, no more than 36 hours for a first-time mother. Any more than that is a dystocia or difficulty in egg laying.

Dusty

OK, I just assumed the duds were a dry run and the two good eggs in two days including the day of posting was not unusual.It would not be for some of the non subocs I have bred, but of course, I'll defer to your superior experience.....

Does the OP have an update?
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

I think that it should be added that aspirating the egg should only be done as a last resort and ONLY be done by someone with experience. It is often done when not necessary and sounds premature in this case.
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Randy Whittington

I just wanted to add that the reason I say I think it's too soon to consider aspirating is the snake just passed a good looking egg as recently as 3 days ago. Even though she layed some bad eggs a few days before which can often happen, she seems to be moving them on her own. Even though aspirating has worked many times it has also killed many a snake when done improperly.
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Randy Whittington

Thanks, Dusty, for your take on this. You've described essentially what's taken place. She did finally pass the last 2 eggs two days apart. They were sluggos.
Hope I never have to aspirate an egg. Sounds fraught with complications & I'm sure the snake doesn't enjoy it one bit!
Anyway, she's doing fine & I appreciate everyone's feedback.
Dan

>>Thanks, Dusty, for your take on this. You've described essentially what's taken place. She did finally pass the last 2 eggs two days apart. They were sluggos.

No prob.

>>Hope I never have to aspirate an egg. Sounds fraught with complications & I'm sure the snake doesn't enjoy it one bit!
>>Anyway, she's doing fine & I appreciate everyone's feedback.
>>Dan

If done right, aspirating an egg is probably quite a lot safer than a variety of other methods, like, for example, manually pushing the egg out or waiting too long for the female to pass them. Too long is the key word there...eggs can become necrotic and essentially rot inside the female's oviducts. I've seen this when I worked at veterinary clinics; not a pretty sight when the female was finally cut open.

I haven't had a problem with aspirating (yet), and I know of long-time breeders who've never had a problem in many years of doing it. Then again, I've got one friend who's a suboc breeder, and he's never had a problem letting the stuck eggs sit for months until they're passed as shriveled, hardened remnants of old eggs. I don't think many vets would recommend the latter, but a well-known herp veterinarian friend of mine did recommend aspirating.

The right method to choose sometimes depends on where the eggs are at in the body too.

DR
Suboc.com

stop moving her around, next time give her one good nest box she likes and let her be

keep her warm and keep the box in there to help her want to lay the eggs

if she definatley stopped , make sure she drinks,,,they start to lay and get tired and the vent will decrease in size....tired and not caring anymore maybe , they stop laying....the eggs IN her may continue to grow,,,making it worse

IF eggs are really really stuck , aspiration is advised , but I never did subocs, so I can't tell you to aspirate or not...

vets are usually no help....

....warm her, let her be, make her drink first

......ask in here and find out exactly how moist the nest boxes need to be fpr next year....maybe too wet or too dry and the female will not want to lay in the box....

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