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OK, this is one of those wild versus captive scenarios again.

In the wild savs brumate during the dry season for lack of food, yes? Would it be worth the effort to imitate this in captivity, thus controling their food intake and thus their weight?

I'm sure most of you will say simply to cut back on feedings, which truely would be easier, but it seems some manipulation of the metabolism would be needed to cause it to require less food. Otherwise you may have a half starved possibly hostile, from lack of food, sav on your hands.

Maybe I'm goin' off half cocked here. It's just a thing I've been curious about. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Quig

Hey Quig!

The thing about brumating and/or lack of food is that savs go into "conserve" mode. They rarely lose weight during these periods because they hunker down & conserve their energy, relying on their fat stores. It's a survival tactic.

Our problem is our inability to replicate nature. There are also some things, like the nautral lack of food supply during certain seasons, that we have the ability to make better.

Bottom line - Proper temps, setup, etc, plus, proper feeding = proper health. Ha! I know you know that, Quig, I just couldn't resist the plug.

Take care!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

The thing about brumating and/or lack of food is that savs go into "conserve" mode. They rarely lose weight during these periods because they hunker down & conserve their energy, relying on their fat stores. It's a survival tactic.

I understand survival tactics, but in relying on their fat stores, over time some of it should diminish eh?

Our problem is our inability to replicate nature.

That's probably do-able, just not worth the effort to most

There are also some things, like the nautral lack of food supply during certain seasons, that we have the ability to make better

Understanding that there is a natural lack of food during these times is exactly the reason for withholding food. And in attempting something like this, just because we have the ability to make it better doesn't mean we should do so.

It's just my ol' hippie brain workin' overtime (can ya smell the smoke? ) Just a ramble. Thanks for your input.

Quig

"It's just my ol' hippie brain workin' overtime (can ya smell the smoke? )"

Heck no! I can't smell it over my brain smoke. Ha! Ha!

I was hoping someone else would chime in to give you another perspective. Maybe someone will before long.

"I understand survival tactics, but in relying on their fat stores, over time some of it should diminish eh?"

Marginal, very minimal. Just like bearded dragons & snakes that are brumated, they generally lose very lil' weight. That's why it wouldn't be a good alternative.

"...just because we have the ability to make it better doesn't mean we should do so."

Here lies the actual, original, problem to obesity in savs. People don't know how to make their feeding regimen & cage setup better. But you know that and that's not the answer to your original question. I realize that, it's just hard for me to resist the plugs. You know me.

I know what you mean. Believe me, I perfectly understand where you're coming from with your original question, I actually considered the same thing when I got my obese female last year. I've done a lot of trial & error, firsthand experiments, in order to get the weight off of her.

All-in-all, a gradual food reduction with proper setup is the key. But it doesn't always work and when it does, it's a long drawn-out ordeal.

I'll bow out of this thread now with the hopes that someone else will chime in.

Catch ya later, Quig!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

It's just like fat people then . It takes a long time to get that way and it'll take a long time to take it off......when done properly.

Thanks for the conversation Mike.

Quig

Brumation in the wild has to do with the natural lack of usable resources (ie, food, usable temps, water, etc). The conditions required to do this are a risk to the animals health, also in the case of an overweight animal can kill it quickly.
When a fast occurs with an obese individual the blood stream carries huge amounts of fat storage throughout the body to use it. The liver cannot take this sudden soaking of fat and the animals liver starts to shut down. This situation is a common health problem occuring in captivity among bosc monitors that are obese, its called fatty liver disorder, or hepatic lipidosis. This condition and what causes it has been known about for many years, also tried many times in the past by reptile keepers with failure as a result.
Stick with smaller food sources, fed less often, and over time they lose the weight. Never fast them.

SHvar, thanks for this info. Puts a proper spin on the whole idea.

Quig

smaller food sources....

so does that mean instead of feeding like 3 or 4 mice every other day cut down to like a dozen superworms every other day and a few mice a week? or are super worms equally as non healthy (insects) because of the protein and stuff... I fear my adult female sav is starting to get some love handles herself...

*by the way is anyone else's kingsnake.com writing in arabic, or is that just something broken on my computer? WEIRD.

>>In the wild savs brumate during the dry season for lack of food, yes? Would it be worth the effort to imitate this in captivity, thus controling their food intake and thus their weight?

HA! Fat Savys! Finally something I know a little about! :0 I dont think over all many animals lose much weight during brumation. Also I agree with Shavar on the fatty liver issue.

>>I'm sure most of you will say simply to cut back on feedings, which truely would be easier, but it seems some manipulation of the metabolism would be needed to cause it to require less food. Otherwise you may have a half starved possibly hostile, from lack of food, sav on your hands.

I have found that with all the obese reptiles (and even looking at the half starved) that I see on an annual basis, savys for some reason are the hardest to lose or gain. Especially when they come in from being fed a diet of 7 cans of cat food. I would think for the purpose of this post, you are speaking of an owner who kinda let things get out of hand, rather than the acquisition of an obese adult. You look at your savy and notice that instead of pam anderson you have an anna nicole on a bad day and realize opps you made your animal fat. Fatty liver really seems to hit these guys fast an quick. What we have done with a little success (since usually mine are emaciated) is instead of all cat food slowly make a switch. Some cat food, some whole prey. I have also offered live rodent under supervised conditions to make the animal MOVE. Same with insects. I have also switched from cat food to a product called wysong, which is meat, organ meat, and water and I add bone meal. Some animals need to have encouragement to accept whole prey as a diet. I offer all my savys that I have in here crickets. I dont care how big they are. I make them MOVE. I have seen a few in the rescue succumb to fatty liver, but when you get a savy in that is so fat it has arm rolls, it is hard to honestly say if it is from change of diet.

>>Maybe I'm goin' off half cocked here. It's just a thing I've been curious about. Any feedback would be appreciated.

One thing to remember with everything I have said. When I have savys here, they come in like hell. They come in either extremely emaciated or horribly obese. I remember a few years ago at an educational event a rescue friend and I were asked by an attendee if we could take in their savy. We decided to save on vet bills we each would take one. The animals arrived the next day and were INSANELY healthy! It was AMAZING! And then we fought over them.

I think a lot of issues in weight with savys can be attributed to something over all the handler is doing wrong. Feeding to much, too cool temps, to small enclosure, too little enrichment. A cage with a hide does not encourage movement. Ya know?
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Cindy
PHFaust

Email Cindy

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