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What's the deal with people dumping the price on Blood boas? Blood boas should be holding their value not being dumped off like other morphs! It's a recessive trait that is still fairly untouched in combos and not everyone has them, just stating my opinion on Blood boas. Any other opinions are welcome.

Edited on August 5, 2008 at 19:19:59 by PHGinger.

The whole Boa market is being dumped in prices. Animals that should be holding value are being sold at ridiculous low prices. I don't understand why people get into the market if they can't afford to. The economy goes a little bad and people start scrambling to get their money back. In the process the entire market takes a hit. Because then the next guy thinks he needs to match that low price. If people would hold to their guns anyone who really wants and can afford to will buy the product. People who should never have become involved in this breeding end of the hobby went that route. All thinking they could make an easy fast ,buck. Now they find out no easy buck to be made. So now trying to get their money back. Just my feelings on a big part of the problem.
. . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

I agree with that entire post. However, relative to the blood boas I believe it was time for the price to drop a bit. They have not dropped a single penny for the past few years and I kept thinking to myself this is the year they will drop a bit. Just my thoughts.

Matt

Quality breeders understand that their time, effort and expense to properly maintain high quality breeding stock in order to produce high quality offspring are worth a fair price. I can only assume that folks willing to dump cheap animals on the market "got lucky" and didn't have to work too hard to produce something, or don't truly value their own time and efforts (or anyone else's). I'll have to agree with Jeremy Stone, in the end, it will be their own undoing. It's an unsustainable business proposition for the long haul.

(...stepping down from soapbox...)

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Darn straight!!! We just produced our first blood this season. She is awesome, and we had her on the market, for market value and not one nibble. So I discussed it with my partner and we decided to keep her. "Chance" is her name and she was produced from a pair of pos. 66% Hence the name. He raised the parents from babies.

In the end we will be much happier producing more of them in the future with unrelated blood lines (his are from Tom Burke hets and my hypo 100% hets are from Dayle Speckin) Next year we look forward to producing more quality animals at fair market price.

All of this panic is just that "panic" I take on the philosophy of "do what you love and love what you do" and so far we have achieved that and more.

All of us as whether the small hobbiest to the full time breeder, need to stick it out and things will get better.

Yeah, I know most of you don't know who I am because I dodn't post here very often, however, that is about to change.
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Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me......
Laura Fopiano

the prices on the pure central american bloods will stay a little stronger. There have been a good many bloods produced that are a cross with columbians makeing bloody hypos, but very few pure stock bloods have been produced. I have seen both and the pure salvadoran bloods are more red.

John Manser

I totally agree with Centrals staying higher longer, my main point is there isn't enough bloods period to see that kind of drop.

If its from over there I truly do not understand. That does confuse me. I figured it was a no name breeder having a hard time.
I agree with Matt prices were do for a small drop not a 50% - 60% drop though.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels a certain way about these price drops.
. . . . Lar M

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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

People have a right to sell animals at the price they wish. If I produce bloods then do I have to consult someone and get their approval on a price to sell my animals? Good price, good product then good deal!

unfortunately the prices on snakes as well as everything else we covet is dependent on supply and demand. if there is an abundance then the price goes down, if it is rare it goes up. there will always be that person, or persons that will find their way into a rare morph and undercut the market. its called the american way, free enterprise. doesnt make it right but still happens. believe me it always comes back to bite them in the a@@.

I'm still not understanding how someone is "WRONG" for doing something "they" choose to do ?
American Way huh ? more like hypocrisy.

>>unfortunately the prices on snakes as well as everything else we covet is dependent on supply and demand. if there is an abundance then the price goes down, if it is rare it goes up. there will always be that person, or persons that will find their way into a rare morph and undercut the market. its called the American way, free enterprise. doesnt make it right but still happens. believe me it always comes back to bite them in the a@@.

n/p

Okay guys, as thoughly as this post has entertained me for the last ten minutes or so... To some this is business and some it's purely pleasure and this entire site is all about both. The business has every right to be upset because stuff like this hurts their income and makes it harder to make the profit to at least break even much less support themselves. On the other hand the average joe just wants the pretty boa at a price they can afford.

the colubrid guys seem to do ok without charging an arm and a leg for an animal.

These arn't corn snakes that have been around 30 some years.And there so much harder to Produce I don't think I could sell these males for any less then everyone else 8 k right? lol.. Its to hard to part with these Boys. Maybe the others arn't as nice. Like they also say "You get what You pay For"

This is the old line from St Pierre.

http://www.myspace.com/gregvanzweden

Van
http://www.myspace.com/gregvanzweden

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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

one thing to keep in mind is the adult size of the animal. $25 for a corn snake is ok because you can fit 1000 of them in the same space you have 50 boas. All else being equal, demand for boas is lower due to adult size. That's one reason to get into the island species and species (and maybe even bloodlines) that stay smaller. Interestingly, BCC and the island species are about the only boas that have held their value (and even increased in value) over the last few years.

Also consider the ease of care. Corn snakes are fairly bullet proof, especially compared to boas. $25 boas means a forum OVERLOADED with questions like "why does my boa sound like a beatboxer"? (RI) And, "my boa looks like it has cataracts, are boas supposed to develop cataracts"? (stuck shed)

I personally (as a buyer and a seller) would like to see the boa market maintain its pricing as high as possible. Everyone wants what they can't have and demand creates a wish list which is good for business and the hobby.

I think it's sad that the jungle market has crashed like it has and truthfully the supply isn't THAT high. My thoughts are that the "possible jungles" (questioning whether an investment is worth it) and the supers (an entire litter of jungles) are what's driving the downward price. The sharp albino market has also dropped dramatically along with the motleys. $1500 motleys are a great deal but they stay on the classifieds for some reason.

Well, I suppose in the end I agree with the person who said: don't produce what you're not willing to keep. And I also suppose that goes for buying animals as well.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

"personally (as a buyer and a seller) would like to see the boa market maintain its pricing as high as possible. Everyone wants what they can't have and demand creates a wish list which is good for business and the hobby."

This is the crux of the matter, and why it is such an emotionally charged issue, really. People want to buy Mercedes for Hyundia prices. People with long term commitment to the industry get angry when those only wanting to turn a quick buck sell a Mercedes they "happened upon" for cheap. This is going to happen. The good news is that these people come and go fairly quickly. They can't really damage the market, only the market can damage itself. The damage comes when those that are really "in" the business drop their prices in an attempt to compete with someone trying to turn the one or two animlas they have quickly. They aren't really "in" the business, they are market anomolies. They don't have the investments, overhead, etc. that serious hobbyists/breeders do. They also do not have a steady supply of product, expectation of longevity, or the good will and reputation. So, as long as the overall market does not knee jerk react to one or two lowballers, there is no real damage necessary. Personally, I don't expect to buy or sell based on price. I do not have the desire drive the cheapest car on the road from a dealer that probably won't be around a year or two from now. I expect to pay/charge for quality in terms of product, performance and reputation. For those that have different values (only care about the cheapest price), the occasional lowballers are out there...

Mark

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uncommonboa.com

>>Jonathan Brady
>>*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

.. Love that signature..
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On the current subject your thoughts and advice are, IMO, dead-on. Still, I have nothing but sympathy for the people squeezed between their investments, both money and effort, and the vagueries of the market.
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It's interesting that most any MBA would guage the rise in demand, increase in production and moderation of prices in the boa-hobby as the perfect example of the evoltion of an industry!
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Yet it's always been my motto 'we're not making toasters!" so I remain an advocate of strong prices, and measured production.
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That's my thoughts on that.
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

....statement uttered on a reptile forum in quite some time...."measured production".

'we're not making toasters!" ,

but it is about making toasters . When your talking about breeding with the primary goal being things such as profit margin and marketability that's exactly what it is . Making toasters. A lot of people don't talk about the snakes as living creatures it's all about the market , should I or shouldn't I invest , projected production , product quality etc. Snakes being compared to cars. Price cutting . Sales pitches.

It's all about producing and selling toasters who's kidding who.

Guys get in a bunch because they can't patent their toaster designs now other guys are making the same toasters and selling them for less. Theres no way to control the market . Uh oh now what ? That's part of the game. The successful toaster makers adapt the others ............

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

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>>Ernie Eison
>>Westwoodreptiles.com
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Ok Ernie.. I'm getting my next toaster from you.
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J/K, I think I know what you're saying..
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Be good.
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

the "Big Show", Daytona, is the best time to purchase any reptile on this site. People tend to slash prices to raise funds for Daytona. After the show prices appear to rebound or atleast that's what has happened in the past.

This year the ever weakening economy acompanied by the ever increasing shipping costs may have forced more then the typical number of people out of the hobby. Couple that with the "year of the boa" where it appears that every one and their grandfather has produced atleast one litter of high dollar morphs and you almost have to expect prices to drop. Motleys went from being produced by a handful of people to almost common easily obtainable morphs. Supply and Demand, right now the supply on alot of the morphs is exceeding the demand.

As for any big breeder crushing the market by selling his/her animals at a reduced price ? Their his animals he can do what he pleases. If he produces 100 blood boas he may have to cut costs just to move them out the door, or maybe he doesn't see blood boas as a desirable morph.. who knows, it's his snakes and his choice.

Maybe it's time to cut back on production untill(if) the market rebounds. I noticed one breeder produces close to 100 brazilian amarali every year for the last 4-5 years , and always has plenty left over, maybe reducig the supply will increases the demand.

I guess that might explain it..I see Motleys on the classifieds for dirt cheap..I see Albino Motleys priced 50% less then what i paid for it less then a year ago..

that may create a little debate. When you buy a boa should you buy/support someone that is "in the business" of producing boas or a small breeder that has other income? As an example, say a few years ago you purchase a jungle boa, or blood boa at a fair price from a large breeder, then the next year that breeder produces 200 jungle boas, or blood boas that radically changes the market. By purchasing from the larger breeder you help support this type of production and that breeder did not seem to relate to your "investment". Now, the large production breeder did absolutely nothing wrong in what was done, they are in business to make money and have a large overhead that demands production. A smaller breeder may or may not relate to your purchase either, but the smaller breeder probably can't produce huge quantities of animals in a short period of time. I use the word "relate" here to mean; "understand what it took for you to come up with the money to buy a certain boa".
In the same manner, as a purchaser you do absolutely nothing wrong in deciding what is in your best interest. Right? Do you continue to support large volume breeders, or smaller breeders that can't move the market as much?
I don't know the "answer" to this, but I think it is worth some debate.
Anyone?

Thanks,
John Manser

John those are some very good points, why support the big volume breeder if they have the control to cut prices in one season. I've already had more than half of my posts removed but the breeder I'm speaking of has done that with Bloods, Bloodys, Sunglow and Sharp Albino's. It really makes you wonder why people are buying from them, how bad are they going to affect prices next year? Maybe smaller breeders are the way to go?

Believe me, small breeders will also cut prices, it's just a question of the impact they can have. When you can produce in volumne and you are selling in a limited market, you can have a large impact. It's understandable for large breeders to do what they do. It's just that as a purchaser, perhaps everyone should now realize from experience that when you buy from a large breeder, you are A. sustaining their ability to produce in volumne and B. you can not count on them (based on what I have seen) to provide much, if any price support for their customers.

This might not be a fair time to have this discussion because the whole economy is hurting right now and people have to do what they can to pay bills all over this country. But, it is an interesting discussion and I would like to hear everyones thoughts. Again, I want to say I don't know that there is a right or wrong to this, but if your thinking of your best interest as a purchaser, which way do you go?

John Manser

I believe I saw the ad you are referring to and I was surprised at the price. It was in the neighborhood of a really nice Motley if I’m thinking of the same ad. I think the price has changed now though.

Unfortunately I think we are going to see a lot more threads like this if the economy continues to go in the direction its going. Kevin from N.E.R.D seemed to have a fairly pessimistic opinion of the near term economy on reptileradio last weekend if I heard him correctly. I’m sure it will ebb and flow just like any other industry right now, but I don’t think many people are leveraging equity in their house to build up their collection like they may have been, not too long ago.

From a buyers point of view I think it’s hard to know if you should buy now, or continue to wait for prices to drop like they have been. I’m sure that isn’t helping sales for anyone.

Just my $0.02

Hi,

For them it has nothing to do with the animals it´s all about the benjamins.

It is quite simple if you have a lot of cost in your company, building, staff, latest morphs etc etc etc, you have to pay all these costs. For that big breeder it´s even to sell 10 snakes a month for 10000& each or 20 snakes for 5000$/each. He has just to breed a couple of more females.

And thats it!!!

Regards

Steve
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I seem to remember blood boas being around $500 about 6 or 7 years ago. Ron St. Pierre created them and noone really wanted them, until the hypos were run through them. Then they went sky high $$ Who knows what the future holds for them.
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Pythons.Net

I don't recall them being that low, but I do remember them being much lower then many people deem an appropriate price.

And I second that nobody seemed interested in them other then a few "weirdos" lol.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

They are Ugly as adults Just like Ghost Boas. The value is in combos> Albino Bloods. I seen adult Blood boas sell for Alot less then what I thought they would sell for, I really think it do to fact they Muddy up so much as adults.

Thanks
Michael T
Boas Etc

by no means a "new" morph.. They have been around for years, well before most of the bottomed out combos you see on the market. Once "x" amount of people are into a project, it can go in any direction within one season. I'm sure you've picked up quite a stock of Blood boas through certain transactions. Bloods are HIGH priced, IMO. They were cheaper a few years back when nobody wanted them. Taking a chance on the market is a roll of the dice, not much calculation to it. Spend big, maybe make big. Too many factors to weigh in. At least your odds are still better than Vegas.