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JOURNAL STAR (Peoria, Illinois) 05 August 08 Trial begins for pair accused of selling undersized turtles
Peoria: Testimony got under way today in the federal trial of two men accused of selling undersized turtles at an East Peoria reptile show three years ago.
Jason Johnson, 32, of Peoria and Keith Cantore, 28, stand charged with conspiracy to sell the terrapins as well as one count of actually selling an undersized turtle at one of the events during the summer of 2005.
Both men face up to 10 years in prison if convicted of all counts.
Assistant U.S. Attorneys Jerry Brost and Brad Murphy contended at trial that Johnson organized the Midwest Reptile Expo and held four events in 2005 at the East Peoria Convention Center. It was at these events, the government alleges, that both men sold the illegal turtles.
For years, little turtles were commonly sold as pets. But they tended to carry salmonella, a dangerous bacteria, and young children would get sick after they put the turtles into their mouths. So in the early 1970s, the federal government banned the sale of the turtles less than 4 inches in size.
Testimony from two state conservation officers indicated they bought turtles at the show that were less than 4 inches. They testified they bought alligators as well.
Johnson's attorney, Spencer Daniels of Peoria, contends, as does Cantore's attorney Bruce Brandwein of Chicago, that the law allows the sale of the baby turtles for educational, scientific or expositional uses. Give those exceptions, it appears the men contend they weren't in violation of the federal statute.
The trial continues Wednesday.
Trial begins for pair accused of selling undersized turtles

This could be a precedent setting case.
Lets hope common sense and sanity prevail.
jscrick
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Case law is set. Time for kingsnake to start cleaning up the classifieds. Here is the link:http://www.pjstar.com/news/x726385419/Two-guilty-in-turtle-trafficking-case

Why should Kingsnake start cleaning up the ad's? Kingsnake is not a policing agency.
They accept advertising, they don't tell people what they can or cannot sell. They only ask the advertiser to check the laws.
Kingsnake is NOT respondsible for what an advertiser sells.

The differnce is that they state to check you local and state laws. Kingsnake is a business in the USA and this is a Federal law. By "cleaning up" the ads they will be responding and following state law. By knowingly, and allowing these ads, they may look to be "partnering" with those breaking the law.

I ment federal not state law.

So, your saying that Kingsnake should CENSOR ad's?
Thats what I am getting from your posts.

Also, Kingsnake should NOT have to follow State Laws, they infer/imply the SELLER should.
Kingsnake is offering a SERVICE, i.e. a place to place ad's.
Nowhere does it state in the Constitution, that Kingsnake should censor, police, govern, etc. advertising.
When Kingsnakes DOES that, I'll take my business elsewhere.
This is still a free country last time I looked.

theres a fed law that says dope is illegal, kingsnake wont allow the sale of dope, the fed law about baby turtles has been challeged and upheld, if they are going to allow baby turtles to be advertised they should allow people to offer blow in the trade sections for those baby turtles
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I love my country but I'm scared to death of its government
Ya believe what you read cause it's all that we give ya
Cause all of history is written by winners
I'm engaged in a frenzy of mass self-destruction
I feed upon your famine to fuel my corruption
I'm wholeselling hatred and international incest
To carnivorous hyenas in a global theft fest
I've mastered the arts of death and foreign nations genocide
And those who turn on me commit national suicide

I'm the queen of the global dream
And I rule a declining nation
I sit and watch all the violent screams
From the throne of your desperation
W.A.S.P.

"theres a fed law that says dope is illegal, kingsnake wont allow the sale of dope, the fed law about baby turtles has been challeged and upheld, if they are going to allow baby turtles to be advertised they should allow people to offer blow in the trade sections for those baby turtles"

That has to be the most assinine post I have read here.
Kingsnake is not in the business to sell dope! They sell advertising for people who want to sell reptiles and amphibians and animal related products.

However, the Federal govt does allow some states to sell pot.
So your argument doesn't hold water anyway! In fact it's insane.
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blow is not pot blow is cocaine, and read the TOS for kingsnake its states clearly you cannot advertise anything illegal including narcotics, the problem here is everyone is to close and thinkn s this is stupid so no one veiws this as it is, and I agree it is stupid if your kids get somonela from swucking on a baby turtle you should be flogged but if a law states a baby turtle is illegal its illegal and no the federal goverment has not permitted ANY state to sell pot, CA cannot sell it under the fed law, CA has done its own thing why do you think the medical pot places still get raided? the ones you see on TV they dont get raided by the state they get raided by the feds, the state has said its ok for them to do that and leaves them alone, thats why theres a bill right now where the feds are trying to legalize having upto it was either 200oz or 200gms I dont remeber which but it was a considerable amount

>>"theres a fed law that says dope is illegal, kingsnake wont allow the sale of dope, the fed law about baby turtles has been challeged and upheld, if they are going to allow baby turtles to be advertised they should allow people to offer blow in the trade sections for those baby turtles"
>>
>>That has to be the most assinine post I have read here.
>>Kingsnake is not in the business to sell dope! They sell advertising for people who want to sell reptiles and amphibians and animal related products.
>>
>>However, the Federal govt does allow some states to sell pot.
>>So your argument doesn't hold water anyway! In fact it's insane.
>>-----
-----
I love my country but I'm scared to death of its government
Ya believe what you read cause it's all that we give ya
Cause all of history is written by winners
I'm engaged in a frenzy of mass self-destruction
I feed upon your famine to fuel my corruption
I'm wholeselling hatred and international incest
To carnivorous hyenas in a global theft fest
I've mastered the arts of death and foreign nations genocide
And those who turn on me commit national suicide

I'm the queen of the global dream
And I rule a declining nation
I sit and watch all the violent screams
From the throne of your desperation
W.A.S.P.

Simply put, Kingsnake.com is a "Market Maker" and nothing else.
These animals are a commodity and Kingsnake.com is a "Commodity Exchange" where value is solely determined by the market.
jscrick
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It is legal to sell turtles under 4" for scientific or educational purposes. You can also legally sell turtles under 4" for export. kIngsnake is an international sales site. Obviously you can legally sell these animals so why shouldn't Kingsnake allow them to be advertised ? It's not up to Kingsnake to do a background check on every sale. Kingsnakes terms of service states you cannot advertise anything illegal that clears them of any responsibility . To try and make a comparison between this and someone placing add advertising narcotics is absurd.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

You need to seriously start taking your medications again, you have a had relapse.

>>The differnce is that they state to check you local and state laws. Kingsnake is a business in the USA and this is a Federal law. By "cleaning up" the ads they will be responding and following state law. By knowingly, and allowing these ads, they may look to be "partnering" with those breaking the law.

It's NOT Kingsnake's responsibility to have to know the ins and outs and every little bit of minutia of reptile laws for every single one of the 50 states plus all of the county laws within each of those 50 states plus the local ordinances within the various cities/towns in those counties. Nor is it their responsibility to know the laws of other countries. It is 100% the responsibility of the SELLER to know what they can legally sell from their location and it is 100% the responsibility of the BUYER to know what animals they can legally purchase/own within their location.
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DP

What all of you are seeming to forget is that just because they have been found guilty in the eyes of the law they are still maintaining their innocence and have the right to appeal the descision so this is not over yet!!!!

The Roadrunner

>>What all of you are seeming to forget is that just because they have been found guilty in the eyes of the law they are still maintaining their innocence and have the right to appeal the descision so this is not over yet!!!!
>>
>>The Roadrunner

dude I have to ask why? what are you going to prove? no one is going to care one way or the other, at the end of the day you alone will be the one serving the time, everyone who is encouraging you now will simply shift gears get into something else and say "sucks to be Jason" if you wind up serving time they will foget your name before you get out, why not do whats in your best interest cut your looses and get out now? I feel sorry for you dude, everyone stands there and pumps you up becasue they have nothing to loose, weve spoken about this before ive seen how the stress is eating at you, why keep doing it?
-----
I love my country but I'm scared to death of its government
Ya believe what you read cause it's all that we give ya
Cause all of history is written by winners
I'm engaged in a frenzy of mass self-destruction
I feed upon your famine to fuel my corruption
I'm wholeselling hatred and international incest
To carnivorous hyenas in a global theft fest
I've mastered the arts of death and foreign nations genocide
And those who turn on me commit national suicide

I'm the queen of the global dream
And I rule a declining nation
I sit and watch all the violent screams
From the throne of your desperation
W.A.S.P.

I am not out to prove anything other than my innocence!!!! And i can't believe you ask why??? I will tell you WHY!!!! Because this is the United States of America and i have the right to appeal thats why!!! Not saying I will or i will not but if i choose to thats my right and it is my choice and my choice alone!! And when it comes to end your right no one else will be paying that fine or doing my time for me but all the choices i have made up to this point have been of my of my own free will and it sickens me to think there are people out there who are not willing to stand up for what they truly believe in and when the *$#@ gets deep they are the ones who turn tails and run. I stood up and fought and fought hard for what i believe in and that said i can sleep much more sound at night. I believe in my right as an American citizen and as a reptile hobbyist and plan on standing up for those rights. And your right it hasn't been easy on me at all but NOTHING WORTH FIGHTING FOR EVER IS!!!!!!

KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!!!!!!
FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS!!!!!
AND DON'T EVER BACK DOWN!!!!!!

-ROADRUNNER-

best of luck to ya just seems to me that kids and family are more important, Ive walked your line with the DNR and I used to get involved in fighting these laws so we didnt have to deal with stuff like this, through all of it my family would suffer, id get all these people cheering me on like I was doing someting great then one day Id turn around and look and be out there all alone, theyd be all for it till it involved some of there time them stepping up to the plate to get something done, then were would they all go? same place I wanted to be home enjoyng there lives with there kids, i just hope its worth it for you, best of luck

>>I am not out to prove anything other than my innocence!!!! And i can't believe you ask why??? I will tell you WHY!!!! Because this is the United States of America and i have the right to appeal thats why!!! Not saying I will or i will not but if i choose to thats my right and it is my choice and my choice alone!! And when it comes to end your right no one else will be paying that fine or doing my time for me but all the choices i have made up to this point have been of my of my own free will and it sickens me to think there are people out there who are not willing to stand up for what they truly believe in and when the *$#@ gets deep they are the ones who turn tails and run. I stood up and fought and fought hard for what i believe in and that said i can sleep much more sound at night. I believe in my right as an American citizen and as a reptile hobbyist and plan on standing up for those rights. And your right it hasn't been easy on me at all but NOTHING WORTH FIGHTING FOR EVER IS!!!!!!
>>
>>KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!!!!!!
>>FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS!!!!!
>>AND DON'T EVER BACK DOWN!!!!!!
>>
>>-ROADRUNNER-
-----
I love my country but I'm scared to death of its government
Ya believe what you read cause it's all that we give ya
Cause all of history is written by winners
I'm engaged in a frenzy of mass self-destruction
I feed upon your famine to fuel my corruption
I'm wholeselling hatred and international incest
To carnivorous hyenas in a global theft fest
I've mastered the arts of death and foreign nations genocide
And those who turn on me commit national suicide

I'm the queen of the global dream
And I rule a declining nation
I sit and watch all the violent screams
From the throne of your desperation
W.A.S.P.

Great post DP! You said WHAT I was TRYING to say!

Folks,

Zoos, researchers, museums and educators view ads on Kingsnake and make purchases so turtlekeeper21's line of reasoning is moot.

As a business, Kingsnake should support its customers (advertisers) which means they should be against any laws or regulations that are based on opinion and/or agenda. These include any prohibitions on the sale of wild caught, the 4" rule, the Black List, any prohibtions on the collection of non-protected species and many others.

This just goes to show you how "hobbyists" think that no one else is in their little world.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Sill not valid, I worked zoo experiance and they are not buying stinkpot, chicken turtles, 100 lot of Red Eareds.

They may work towards changing the law, but aiding the breaking of the law leads to conspiricy charges.

You can not go to your local newspaper and place an ad for pot for sale, or a gun without proof that you legally own the gun.

You may be right that zoos aren't buying 100 lots of RES...and I agree with you there. But the internet is so hard to enforce and separating hobbyist from business is so difficult. There isn't even a way to know if someone's turtle really is the size they say it is. You would have to have someone measure it and take a picture of it being measured...post the picture for each ad...etc.

Turtlekeeper21,

I use to run a zoo herp department but that is besides the point. The point is that zoos buy turtles and can legally do so. The law says that ANYONE can purchase these turtles for the PURPOSES of education or scientific use. I see your point about 100 lots of RES but people have the right to list these turtles for sale for the purposes stated above. Kingsnake is not required to confirm the legality of the animals listed on its site. If someone was offering illegal Drymarchon couperi on Kingsnake and got busted, Jeff would not be culpable. The only way your line of reasoning would be correct is if it was 100% illegal to sell turtles 4" or smaller and its not. BTW I am currently acquiring high quantities of two species for researchers so researchers do need high quantities sometimes.

You know what is wrong with your pot and gun example don't you?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Most of the sellers on kingsnake are hobbyists...you will find some business ads but the majority seem to be hobbyist breeders. So that is why they are allowed to advertise, trade, and sell on kingsnake.

THAsia,

I would tend to disagree with you. I would say the opposite. There are many pet stores, dealers, suppliers and professional breeders on Kingsnake. Also I would argue that many of the "hobbyists" are using their "hobby" as a second income. Now it may not be profitable but none-the-less it is an income.

Hobby is defined as "An activity or interest pursued at one's leisure for enjoyment."

Hobbies are usually not-for-profit. Stamp collectors don't breed stamps and sell the offspring. So why do all the "hobbyists" sell their offspring? If it truly was a "hobby" they should give their offspring away. It is actually a breeding or ranching business.

One of the definitions of "business" is "Commercial dealings."

I feel pretty confident that most folks are in business.

One of the definitions of "commercial" is "Of or engaged in commerce.

And "commerce" is defined as "The buying and selling of goods or services."

"Hobbyists" always want to be defined in such a way as to minimize any profit. They are not evil money grubbers. "Hobbyists" also want to be defined as "recreational" especially as it relates to collecting herps. This is to give the perception of being "non-commercial" thus not harvesting in any number. But, as with fisheries, there are proportionally a great deal more people who define themselves as "recreational." When a management agency wants to lessen the impact of humans on a resource, they always limit the "recreational" folks as they have a much larger impact on the resource.

So let's be honest!

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Actually hobbyist are excluded if you read the letter that the FDA responded to a Request for review a few years ago. just read below and judge for yourself....

2. Turtles as an “Adult” Hobby
Your petition states that: “[kleeping of turtles has become an adult hobby. Turtle
organizations have sprung up all over the country to educate the public concerning the
keeping, care, and conservation of turtles and tortoises.”
This argument does not provide sufficient justification for amending 2 1 CFR 1240.62.
This regulation already provides an exception in 2 1 CFR 1240.62(d)( 1) for turtles owned
for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes. In establishing this
exception, the FDA determined that these situations will not present a significant public
health hazard since the scope of the exception is limited to a specific segment of society
consisting of experts in the field who are fully aware of the contamination problems
associated with turtles and the precautions required to prevent such contamination (40 FR
22545; May 23, 1975). Further, 21 CFR 1240.62 does not prohibit adult hobbyists from
owning or making an occasional sale to another hobbyist, as long as such sales are not so
frequent as to make the seller a dealer. 21 CFR 1240.62(d)(2). Therefore, the fact that the
keeping of turtles may be an adult hobby is not adequate grounds for amending the
regulation as you propose since hobbyists already are excepted from the regulation.
Finally, your petition presents no evidence regarding the content and the extent of
educational efforts of these “turtle organizations,” how many members of the general
public have been exposed to these efforts, or how many members of the general public
understand and are likely to follow the recommendations of these organizations.
3. Cost to Raise Rare Turtle Species
You assert that “[mlany rare species are being bred in captivity in this country and the
distribution of these turtles to responsible individuals becomes quite a hardship because of
the cost and time to raise them to four inches. Some species are adults at only 4 inches.”
This argument does not provide sufficient justification for amending 21 CFR 1240.62. As
discussed above, individuals and groups can sell, hold for sale, or distribute turtle eggs and
turtles with a carapace length of less than four inches for bona fide scientific, educational,
or exhibitional purposes. If one is raising rare turtle species and one has a bona fide
scientific, educational, or exhibitional purpose for selling, holding for sale, or distributing
them, then the current regulation already,exempts this conduct from the sale prohibition.
In addition, the FDA has previously stated.that the agency will consider petitions to amend
the turtle sale prohibition to permit the sale of identified species, if it can be demonstrated
that the species are so rare and expensive as to be of interest only to turtle hobbyists (40 FR
22545; May 23, 1975). However, your petition does not specify any particular turtle
species nor present any evidence that such species are so rare and expensive as to be of
interest only to turtle hobbyists.

so this comes from the FDA themselves so it looks like to me hobbyist are excluded yes?????

THE ROADRUNNER

I would think stamp collectors buy, sell, and trade their stamps. I don't think they give them away. If their stamps could reproduce and help offset the costs of maintaining them...I'm sure they would do it.

THAsia,

Then they would no longer be "stamp hobbyists" but "stamp ranchers" or "stamp dealers." Most folks who hobby coins and stamps don't usually sell their collections. They are usually passed down to their heirs. Folks who buy and sell coin and stamp collections are usually considered "dealers." Now, there are exceptions but my point still stands unscathed.

It all has to do with how you define and categorize things. I explained how herp "hobbyists" try and pigeon-hole themselves as "recreational" and "non-commercial." There are many reasons for that. I tend to think that they are home businesses and/or second incomes. Further, I do think that most folks "enjoy" their home business but it can't be categorized as done in their "leisure." Leisure is defined as "Freedom from time-consuming duties or activities." I would say that taking care of and breeding live animals is a duty and time consuming. You can't forget about your animals for a month, like you can with coins and stamps, and then come back and "hobby" with them because they would be dead.

They could just be pets. But when you start breeding them you are now a "pet breeder" or "pet rancher." And then when you sell the offspring you are now commercializing in a commodity. You are a "commercial seller." If you buy as well, you are a "commercial dealer."

Isn't it funny how they have definitions for activities? They can all be found in a dictionary.

I think we need to start telling the truth about this "industry" and define the activities of the folks participating in it. If we can come clean, be honest and come together we might be able to save this "industry." And BTW "industry" is defined as "Commercial production and sale of goods."

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You are making quite a few assumptions about stamp collectors. I understand your points but there is also a lot of opinion and assumption mixed in there. I'm sure not all collectors are inheriting their collection or hanging on to it and not trading (or selling) various stamps to improve their collection. I do not agree that this would be a dealer or a "stamp rancher"

Not all hobbies can be just left for months as you say. Some people probably are not even trying to breed their animals but if they discover eggs, they will incubate, and yes possibly even sell! I don't think people should have to give away something that they own, just to fit into your definition/opinion of a hobbyist.

Most of the major collections of rare chelonian species of are in private hands, not in zoos. If you look at studbooks or attend a TSA meeting you will find that private keepers are an important aspect of keeping many species alive in captivity. The facts are these:
(1) Keepers of rare important bloodlines are not going to give away their hatchlings. That is just the way it is. I wish someone would give me their hatchling Cuora aurocapitata so they can be "true" hobbyists but in reality that will never happen. You might find some who will give to friends or put some out on breeding loan but most sell their surplus.
(2) The federal government is the source of the "hobbyist" exemption. Our own government is saying there is a such thing as trading and selling between hobbyists. So if you are saying there is no such thing as "hobbyist" breeders, obviously the government disagrees.

Having said all of that, I went back and looked at the classifieds, and you are right it does appear that the bulk of the ads are commercial.
- Mike

I think I saw in the latest (Aug. 8) Herpdigest that the guy(s) was/were convicted and that the judge was going to sentence soon. Also that there was no "Conspiracy" found.
Sounds like one of the defendants is contributing on this topic here.
Less than a year ago there were 2 bills working their way through House and Senate to legalize under 4" turtles; to do away with the 4" rule. Seemed like a done deal at the time. What ever happened to that? Did the various agencies and regulators get real busy busting people to demonstrate their need?
Good discussion, by the way.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

That law was defeated for the time being, interestingly enough with the help of PIJAC! It was claimed that the bill would lead to a ban on many reptiles that are now freely available, while legalizing 4 inch and under turtles.....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Why don't they make a law banning blatant ignorance, instead of subsidizing it? In other words, if your kid gets sick from putting his "pet" turtle in his mouth and it can be proved, you should be found guilty of child neglect and of animal cruelty. How about personal responsibility. Big Brother -- stop saving us from ourselves.
I'm so tired of dealing with the "Machine". The system is nothing but an automated "push button #X for yes... for more options push #Y" machine on autopilot. No one is running the store. All the politicians are out collecting graft and pursuing their illicit sexual liaisons.
jscrick
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

And why don't more SELLERS be honest with thier customers? It's a two-way street. Yes, buyers should educate themselves, but sellers should also be honest. How many buyers of hatchling turtles were told the turtles wouldn't get much bigger? If a buyer asks the right questions, and the seller lies, who's responsible? 90% of the unwanted pet sliders were purchased as illegal hatchlings in tourist areas for God sakes. What breeder sold the turtles to a tourist store? Selling hatchling turtles from a responsible venue is one thing, selling your animals to a tourist shop is something else.

Katrina

A little off topic but still relevant. I get sick of hearing pet stores tell people that turtles will only grow to the size of their tank. I don't know where this myth started but it needs to stop. RES are causing havoc on our environment by being released. They are very invasive. Females grow to be too large for most people to properly maintain. It is becoming nearly impossible to find homes for all the unwanted RES in the USA. Here is an online petition to get PETCO to stop selling RES as pets:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/602341814

There are many other better options as far as captive turtles go.
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Michael
http://turtletracker.com

I don't think RES should be banned from the pet trade.
I do think full disclosure of their future husbandry requirements should be required.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

I'd agree with that. I was in Petsmart, and their care sheet for aquatic turtles looked good on the front (grows up to 12", lives up to 30 years), but then when it came to the care section, it said a water dish deep enough for soaking was adequate! No mention that you might eventually need 125 gallon tank for your female slider.

Katrina