Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Falias, first I would like to say “Thank You” for your informative posts to this forum. You are a wealth of information and I am sure that everyone here on the forums appreciates the information that you share as much as I do. That is why it pains me to say the following things.

When I was reading your post HERE, something struck me and I could not get it out of my head for many hours as you can see by the time of this post. Here are the things that got to me:

“Also don't expect to much help from this forum. There have been so many people begging for help to correct the trouble caused by keeping your dragons in abusive situations that people are getting tired of giving the same answers over and over.”

“If you were neglectful enough to "accidently" breed your poor dragon, you probably are NOT cut out for the 4 or more hours a day hatchlings take for care, or the 2-3 hours more advertising them takes.”

“BTW. there is NO way to acciedently breed dragons.”

“These are not "accidents" or "suprises" they are NEGLECT and ABUSE.”

I think you where a little hard on Oleander with the comments that I just stated. In the middle of all the good information that you where giving him, you where in clear violation of the Terms of Service here on Kingsnake. Here is what I saw:

“Posting warnings about companies or individuals, posting notices about bad deals or dealers, or posting personal attacks about companies or individuals, is a violation.”

“Threats, potentially libelous statements, personal attacks, disruption, and "trolling" (seeking to disrupt the site with inflammatory posts and actions) are violations. Technical disruption of the site is considered a particularly serious violation and when appropriate, legal recourse will be sought.”

“Posting personal attacks about individuals is a violation. We welcome discussion and debate on our Forums. However, we ask that you stick to the issues, not the other users of the site.”

I mean no disrespect to you, but I feel that I had to say something. Oleander was here to get help and not be belittled to the point where he might not post to this forum again with all the knowledge he is about to gain. I am even in apprehension of how you are going to reply to this and I have been reading this forum for years. People come here to get help and share information with others that may be in need. That is what makes this board a wealth of information. But when people talk down to others here, it does nothing but tarnish the image of the rest of the people here.

When I read deeper about that post, this is what I get:

“BTW. there is NO way to acciedently breed dragons.”
“These are not "accidents" or "suprises" they are NEGLECT and ABUSE.”

Now, when I go to your home page HERE , I follow the link to the care sheet. You have it linked to THIS site (dachiu.com). As I read that site, I clicked HERE and this is what I read:

“Female #7 - Bred by accident at 14.5 inches / 5 months old.”

You are now in turn saying that they (dachiu.com, the website that you linked to) are neglecting and abusing their dragons?

The only thing that I am trying to do here is to let you know that what you say reaches farther then just the person you are talking/typing to. I hope you understand where I am coming from with this post and do not get offended by anything that I said or pointed out, as that was not my intention.

The two most important things that I learned are:

“If you don’t have anything nice to say, then don’t say anything at all”

and

“If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem”

Steve aka GoldDragon

Yes, sometimes people are real quick to jump up on their high horse... I believe that this forum should be used constructively, to encourage people to breed and keep reptiles properly. We should promote respect and understanding of these fascinating creatures, not attack each other.

I guess you could accidentally breed your dragons if you bought two baby females and ended up with an adult male and a female a year later. That's not neglect either, just because someone's not an expert at sexing doesn't mean that they abuse their dragons.

(By the way this post was not directed at anyone in particular, these are just my general thoughts from years on the kingsnake forums)

I have no problems with the points you are making, so If you were hoping for a fight....sorry to disappoint you. Just kidding =)

First, I did give him all of the information that I could to help him. He didn't listed of course. I stressed in an early e-mail that 89 was TOO high and could kill the eggs...His next e-mail...so should I lower the temp it is at 89. But regardless I answered that e-mail again stressing the correct temps...and without criticisim.

I also warned him not to depend on this site for his information because people are getting tired of hiw kind of post. This is TRUE. I encouraged him to turn to books. As you saw with his post, he got SO little information here that he allowed his incubator to get up to 89 for an extended period of time. That is very likely to kill his eggs. I did not say I was not going to give him information. I said he "should not expect it", and he did not get it. In other words...go to a herp vet. You made a mistake now fix it. Go get some books. I did not say go away, or I won't help you with your emergency info you need.

THIS IS A FORUM FOR FINE TUNING KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE. This is NOT the place to do your major research! This is not where to come for GENERAL information. This is where we should talk about the details NOT in the books. When the guy does not even know the correct temperature, WE CANNOT HELP HIM. There is TOO much that goes into it, he COULD NEVER get all the information. I am also not the only person that is ignoring the HELP! questions. I have watched quite a few questions go by unanswered in the last week. That is what I was telling him...the truth. It is better that he hears it and goes to books or caresheets or FAQ then to sit here waiting for an answer. Many of the HELP! posts that I opened this week had one or two replies that started "well I don't really know but..." thats not help, but thats the only people who are reading these posts anymore.

Many of these people have NO IDEA the that the things they are doing are ABUSIVE. Should we just let them keep thinking that they are great lizard owners? Is that responsible? Then they produce 100 or more lizards and give them to people who have babies with poor starts in life(and poor starts cause LIFELONG problems), and pass on their reptile husbandry ideas to a new group of lizard owners. These are the people that cause so much pain in so many animals. But once again, I ALWAYS HELP THEM FIRST AND SCOLD THEM ON THE WAY.

If people care about their animals then the animal will recieve good care regardless of whether or not they got yelled at on one forum. If the animals are going to be neglected, they will regardless of whether they get all the most wonderful information in the world and sugary smiles. These are people. A post will not change them, but it COULD open thier eyes if they were ignorant but not cruel.

About the Dachiu thing. I am SURE they would be the first to admit that they made a mistake that harmed their dragon. They would be the first to say that allowing that to happen is NOT right or good. They don't normally breed dragons at that age, they said it was a mistake, they DON'T feel that it was good for the dragons, so yes it was neglectful. However they have SO many dragons...this is, of course, the exception that every rule has. A guy that has 2 dragons CAN NOT get confused and put the wrong dragons together. A guy who has several hundred dragons CAN make a mistake. You are using this example out of context. It is not similar. But ,yes, I do feel breeding a dragon at that age is neglectful regardless of who did it. I believe the Dachius would feel the same.

Jen
-----
MY Dragons!!

>>Falias, first I would like to say “Thank You” for your informative posts to this forum. You are a wealth of information and I am sure that everyone here on the forums appreciates the information that you share as much as I do. That is why it pains me to say the following things.
>>
>> When I was reading your post HERE, something struck me and I could not get it out of my head for many hours as you can see by the time of this post. Here are the things that got to me:
>>
>>“Also don't expect to much help from this forum. There have been so many people begging for help to correct the trouble caused by keeping your dragons in abusive situations that people are getting tired of giving the same answers over and over.”
>>
>>“If you were neglectful enough to "accidently" breed your poor dragon, you probably are NOT cut out for the 4 or more hours a day hatchlings take for care, or the 2-3 hours more advertising them takes.”
>>
>>“BTW. there is NO way to acciedently breed dragons.”
>>
>>“These are not "accidents" or "suprises" they are NEGLECT and ABUSE.”
>>
>>I think you where a little hard on Oleander with the comments that I just stated. In the middle of all the good information that you where giving him, you where in clear violation of the Terms of Service here on Kingsnake. Here is what I saw:
>>
>>“Posting warnings about companies or individuals, posting notices about bad deals or dealers, or posting personal attacks about companies or individuals, is a violation.”
>>
>>“Threats, potentially libelous statements, personal attacks, disruption, and "trolling" (seeking to disrupt the site with inflammatory posts and actions) are violations. Technical disruption of the site is considered a particularly serious violation and when appropriate, legal recourse will be sought.”
>>
>>“Posting personal attacks about individuals is a violation. We welcome discussion and debate on our Forums. However, we ask that you stick to the issues, not the other users of the site.”
>>
>> I mean no disrespect to you, but I feel that I had to say something. Oleander was here to get help and not be belittled to the point where he might not post to this forum again with all the knowledge he is about to gain. I am even in apprehension of how you are going to reply to this and I have been reading this forum for years. People come here to get help and share information with others that may be in need. That is what makes this board a wealth of information. But when people talk down to others here, it does nothing but tarnish the image of the rest of the people here.
>>
>> When I read deeper about that post, this is what I get:
>>
>>“BTW. there is NO way to acciedently breed dragons.”
>>“These are not "accidents" or "suprises" they are NEGLECT and ABUSE.”
>>
>> Now, when I go to your home page HERE , I follow the link to the care sheet. You have it linked to THIS site (dachiu.com). As I read that site, I clicked HERE and this is what I read:
>>
>>“Female #7 - Bred by accident at 14.5 inches / 5 months old.”
>>
>> You are now in turn saying that they (dachiu.com, the website that you linked to) are neglecting and abusing their dragons?
>>
>> The only thing that I am trying to do here is to let you know that what you say reaches farther then just the person you are talking/typing to. I hope you understand where I am coming from with this post and do not get offended by anything that I said or pointed out, as that was not my intention.
>>
>> The two most important things that I learned are:
>>
>>“If you don’t have anything nice to say, then don’t say anything at all”
>>
>>and
>>
>>“If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem”
>>
>> Steve aka GoldDragon
>>

My computer and I aren't getting along very well today...

D.A.

I just wanted to say that I don't see anything in what Falias posted as a "personal attack", or a violation of the rules here. Some of it might have been a bit stern, but that's hardly an attack.

I could be wrong though, as such things are subject to interpretation, and it's usually the opinion of the moderators that count in the end...

Having said that, I could see where, unless you are a moderator, that your bringing this up after it seems to have been settled between Falias and Oleander through e-mail, could be taken as a kind of attack. Not to mention that this thread has nothing really to do with the subject of this forum, but is aimed at some one's opinions and means of expressing them.

Also, the moderators would probably have addressed it in private, not here on the forum. At least that's the way it usually works on the other moderated forums I visit.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, as an "Anyone else".

D.A.