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What are some thoughts on whether or not there are any true albino Eastern kingsnakes? I am aware of one line that was kept in a zoo in Georgia that descended from a W/C snake in that state, but I don't know if that line is still around.

Yes it was the only "true" albino eastern. It was confiscated from a pet shop which had if for sale.

Easterns are illegal to keep in jawja.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

There are no "pure" albino EKs. That was an intergrade.-GOD

I see there's one for sale that's from Terry Dunham stock. Does anyone know the origin of his line? I'd be interested in breeding it with my mosaic pattern S. Georgia, but not if I'm gonna get slammed for making mutts.

Don't worry about those who slam for making mutts.
The only "pure" snake is a wild snake.

Enjoy wild snakes in the wild, don't destroy their habitat, and don't release snakes from other locales into a locale.

Captive snakes are not wild snakes, and do with them as you please. Have your own philosophy - and don't let others dictate their philosophy to you and force it down your throat.

Much of it is all man-made constructs anyway, and what we use to make those constructs change - sometimes phenotype, sometimes mtDNA, but a pet snake is a pet snake, breed them only if you really can care for the young that you can't offload - and breed them to satisfy you and your own goals, not the hundreds of purity freaks who want you to keep your lines pure but usually have no interest in acquiring the stock they want you to keep pure.

But do label correctly.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

You just did an FR only you did it better. hahahahahahahaha perfect. I have been out FR'errrddd

What a perfect post!

The absolute truth is, when I produced crosses or hybrids in the past, they were the first to sell. Oh that is, if they were pretty. Even those who condemned them, bought them in secret.

Which also goes for pure captive lines, the pretty ones sell, the ugly ones do not. People are so silly.

Also reality is, even with very pretty wild snake populations, keepers still pick the unusual or different within that population. Which kind of makes this even funnier, amoung beautiful wild phenotypes, keepers may seek the uglier ones because they are different.

Heres an example. In the early days of Greyband collecting and keeping, Blairs were common, what a beautiful snake, a four colored snake, over the more common tricolored snakes. But, amoung the beautiful four colored snakes(grey/black/white/red) were a very small percentage of two colored snakes(alterna)which were grey and black. These were in high demand both by collecting and captive breeding. The reality is, a good alterna kinda looked like a spotted night snake, only with less going on. hahahahahahahahaha. Yes yes, an alterna still have the beautiful physical features of all mexicana. But what makes it nice when you take away the beautiful colors??????(i know, there are many answers to this)

So it boils down to exactly what you said. People tend to build their own little cubicules and live within them. Then they want others to be like them. None of this has to do with wild snakes or pure. Its all about forming little groups and clicks to make eachother feel better about our choices. We all do this, but we do not have to force others to be like us)

I feel I have a long history around this subject and I have seen this for decades, the reality is, its the same as it has been, no better, no worse. There are all the little clicks and they all rag on eachother. It appears that is common with all "human interests) up to and encluding religion.

So yes, keep what you like, do what you like, but do not release any captive snake back into nature. Do not take one from nature unless your willing to NEVER put it back. And do not misrepresent captive genetic history. We really do not need a whole lot of rules, just a few.

Which leads to this. MAny of these purists have no idea of the genetic history of their snakes. They simply take someone/s they do not know "word". This to me is why they get so up in arms. They have no control over keeping their cubicule clean, SO they wants others to keep it clean for them. FOLKS we are all only humans, if you want your cubicule clean, you have to keep it that way. Let the others deal with their own cubicule.

With the interest of kingsnakes, there are lots of cubicules, let the cubicules live on. Cheers.

You guys are too too funny. So are you saying you have an FR in training that is passing the master debater?
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Did you mean to put the de after the master????? Cheers

"Which leads to this. MAny of these purists have no idea of the genetic history of their snakes. They simply take someone/s they do not know "word". This to me is why they get so up in arms. They have no control over keeping their cubicule clean, SO they wants others to keep it clean for them."

and you just did Tony D better than me!!
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Darwin Rocks!

>> "The absolute truth is, when I produced crosses or hybrids in the past, they were the first to sell. Oh that is, if they were pretty. Even those who condemned them, bought them in secret."
>>
lol Well you sure put it out there. I've seen this alot with even very field-experienced locality guys. And I like it.

One of these guys effectively said, "I love the locality animals and respect where they come from, and I also realize that these locality animals I have are living their lives out in plastic boxes, which does nothing for nature, so having a few hybrids is not a contradiction for me, since they do nothing for nature either."
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Mark

Some of us might make fun of the Frankenstein morphs, but I would never tell someone they shouldn't own one if they want. I just prefer wild-caught. I'm old fashioned that way.

I just prefer wild-caught. I'm old fashioned that way.

My grandmother refused to have a telephone
My mother refuses to have a computer

I think you age is showing Brian. You need to step back to the future.

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Nothing wrong with being old fashioned.

It kinda puts a smile on some peoples face!

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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

So, where were YOU when I needed sticticeps pics for my book?

No the real question is where were you when I needed some OBKs!
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Nice obk but what is that first pic (mosaic?Abberant)i would be a shame to muddle up a normal OBK with that combo IMHO since it is a small locale protected animal that alot of people would like to produce just the original lookers.
This is from me a known controlled hybribizer on only a few snakes that are REALLY COOL ...

btw pardon my assumtion not knowing what the first pic is,i may be way off base

i still ended up with some gorgeous babies from these eggs even though i didnt do a natural lay box according to some...Chris

OMD, an orange, big blotched thing-a-ma-jig! I need one of those. That is SOOOO cool. Where can I get one? Huh? Huh? Huh? Where? OMG!!!!

You said, OMG, so whom would be a gods god?(herp wise of course) Cheers

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this cramming something down his throat and an attempt at influence??? It's hard to practice what we preach........:

"Don't worry about those who slam for making mutts.
The only "pure" snake is a wild snake.

Enjoy wild snakes in the wild, don't destroy their habitat, and don't release snakes from other locales into a locale.

Captive snakes are not wild snakes, and do with them as you please. Have your own philosophy - and don't let others dictate their philosophy to you and force it down your throat.

Much of it is all man-made constructs anyway, and what we use to make those constructs change - sometimes phenotype, sometimes mtDNA, but a pet snake is a pet snake, breed them only if you really can care for the young that you can't offload - and breed them to satisfy you and your own goals, not the hundreds of purity freaks who want you to keep your lines pure but usually have no interest in acquiring the stock they want you to keep pure.

But do label correctly."
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Jerry Kruse

"When the character of a man is not clear to you, look to his friends." -- Japanese Proverb

Telling him to do what interests him is not cramming anything down his throat.

Telling him what he should and should not do is.

I would have no interest in crossing thayeri or greeri with other species/subspecies for example but if someone else does, it's really their business, not mine.

That's all I'm saying.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

it should be completely feasible for us all to understand that, while it is certainly in anyone's right to do what they please with their beloved creatures, creating hybrids between subspecies and, particularly, genus, has the potential to contaminate the market down the road for complicating one's ability to identify and reproduce as pure lineage as possible over the generations. Be it as it may, there are many dishonest people out there Funky as well as much irresponsibility. I can certainly appreciate your attempts at honesty and legitimate representation Funky, but not everyone is like this.

I can not and will not partake in the irrational arguments such as "well these are not wild snakes so it has no effects on wild populations" or "such captive animals have been line bred to the point that they are unnatural and would look nothing like the way they do within wild populations". At the end of the day AT LEAST one can say is that they have purity to the best captive degree without the worry of any other unnatural influence. If we are going to keep whining that we are not doing the best we can to offer a range of captive conditions and that line breeding is unnatural and as bad as hybridizing (I believe mostly FR's arguments), then we might as well not keep snakes in captivity at all. Funny, but that was not the original argument to begin with, but secondary rationalizations to strengthen the argument for being PRO-hybrid. I'm still wondering if the preacher and apostle are completely fine with crossing a prairie king and an eastern king and then saying there's nothing wrong with it "becaue they are still in the same genus". Come ONNNN.......
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Jerry Kruse

"When the character of a man is not clear to you, look to his friends." -- Japanese Proverb

I don't know about the "preacher," but the "getula GOD" thinks crossing species lines is stupid, meaningless, and immoral. I doubt FR will agree, since he did a lot of that in the early 1980s (pyro x zonata x alterna mutts, etc.). However, I still feel that it is not my place to tell someone else what to do with their own captive snakes. I just happen to be a purist.

Hello!!!! Frank's Picklebarrelass! Can I slip you a pickle, or maybe trade for a mutt? You said somethin' along those lines.....
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Jerry Kruse

"When the character of a man is not clear to you, look to his friends." -- Japanese Proverb

If I remember correctly these trace back to New England Reptile Distributors (NERD) but from there the origin gets muddy but indications are that they came from a guy who used to be a curator at the Baltimore zoo but his name eludes me just now. He used to sell albino kings that he said came form an area which would be the integration zone between getula and negrita but do not recall the exact local. If memory serves he marketed them as albino black kings.
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Darwin Rocks!

Tony you are right on about the history and the locale escapes me to at this moment but it is as you said.

The first time I held the eastern kings amels I was very dissapointed because I knew they were not eaterns. A lot of people bought into them for $1000. each but soon unloaded them for a lot less. I was going to buy them until I actually held one in my hand and saw it up close.

I guess it helps to fiddle with hybrids to some degree because this was far back enough where herpers were not as in tune with crosses to detect anything.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

The original offering as a black king was not cheap! This is just me but I think they dropped simply because they were largely unattractive. I know that others disagree but that's another story. No accounting for taste after all. Ball pythons taught us that!

All in all I think this particular example is one of were new isn't always better. Not all morphs are worth producing. Relative to normal or classic forms some are down right fuggly.

All that being said, there was another albino eastern that was posted here a few years back. It was a shockingly good looking animal and it looked exactly what I thought an amel eastern would or should. Sadly it was found at a pet store in NY and everyone discredited it as a cross even though it looked more like an eastern than the more favored though ugglier line. Go figure.
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Darwin Rocks!

I should add that outcrossing to eastern stock has improved the look of the NERD line.
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Darwin Rocks!

Yeah - there's a guy I know from another forum who has specifically been outcrossing them with WC chain kings with dilution of the EBK influence being a large factor in his desire to do so.

It will be interesting to see where it goes.

Supposedly there also have been some problems of some specimens unexpectedly dying (I believe I heard about it here) at about a year in age or so - if it is a genetic flaw in the line that is not caused by the mutation allele, outcrossing may help in that area too.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

The one I posted a few months ago may, or may not, be an intergrade. Some folks beleive it to be an integrade but other SE herpetologists lean towards it being pure. Either way it's a neat animal.

Believe it or not, but I have seen a lot of pure Easterns (both in the wild and in photos) and based on what I now know I disagree with the purity aspect of these albinos or amels or whatever you want to call them. that does not detract from them being attractive morphs or desirable. I just hate to see things labeled incorrectly and people mislead. We have too much of that going on in this hobby. FR said the same thing. We need to know the history of a morph and call it what it is.

Here's an example that really hits home with me-Albino Newporters. There are no pure albino Newporters, and never have been, but many were sold as such at shows during the 1980s and 1990s. The "suckers" who bought them were misled and thought they were buying something pure. That's just wrong in my opinion, but the almighty buck seems to be more important in reptile sales than honesty.

Here's a pic. What is it? Answer at bottom of photo.

Eastern/Black intergrade. Fayette county, GA Wild-caught by permit by myself in 1998. Does this snake look like those albinos?

The albinos lean more to the black king in proportion, muscle density, head shape and overall appearance and demeanor. Their disposition seems to be much weaker than the eastern x blacks you found near where i live. I have seen a lot of the ones from around that area you found yours and the albino form is nothing near the ones found here.

I think folks outbred the original stock back to regular eatsern kings making them more "eastern" . But the originals being sold by the two main breeders wwere not like easterns.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

That's probably true, but the basic pattern on the albinos I've seen looks more like that intermediate (intergrade) snake I posted. The neat thing about your area was the diversity in intermediate patterns. I saw at least 4 different pattern schemes on the kings Toby and I found there. I wish I'd taken a camera with me, instead of just a video-cam. The coolest one (which we did not collect-I have no idea why)had bands composed of tiny speckles and were about 2 scales wide.

I've seen amel nitida offered before, are those pure nitida or are they also an outcross?

I believe they were offered by F1Reptiles but I'm not sure.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I haven't heard about those.

These animals aren't going to be bred so their purity, or lack thereof, is inconsequential for the reptile community (with regards to breeding stock). They are used as educational animals and most folks only want to know if they will eat their children and/or pets.

Thanks for all the replies. I had no idea I would get such an uproar started! Very interesting perspectives. I agree that people should be able to participate in their hobby or profession in whatever fashion they choose. To be quite honest I think that people who get their dogs from animal shelters are more than likely more fun to hang out with than the breeders and owners found at the Westminster Kennel Club's show! LOL And down in Jawja I would imagine that the state operated zoo can keep any kind of snake they want to. I'm just glad us folk here in South Cackalackie can keep MOST of our native species with no strings attached.

Actually I think I started the uproar by mentioning mutts. But crossing one of these albino easterns with my S. Georgia easterns wouldn't really be mutts, not in my opinion anyway. I was going to breed my pair to each other next year though, so unless I can get a female albino, I couldn't even make the double hets until 2010. The albino that's available now is a male. He does look pretty eastern like. If it's originally from the NERD line I'm guessing it has been backcrossed already.