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I was wondering if there is such a thing, or are they all Sinaloans? I recently saw some wacky aberrants being marked as Nelsoni, but I have never heard of Nelsoni being that aberrant before.... just the Sins. What say the experts?
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Aubrey Ross

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Well Aubrey,....to be honest, many of the nelsoni AND Sinaloan's in today's hobby are a mixed lineage of both to some degree or another. I sometimes see Sinaloan's that look more nelsoni, and nelsoni that have obvious gene-flow from the Sinaloan. Then there are the ones that you can't discern at all because they are a "carbon copy" intergrade of both that is right in the middle.

Excellent "textbook" examples of the two are fairly easy for some to distinguish, especially when shown the differences from someone very experienced with the two subspecies that can point them out, but as the RBR(red body rings), and triads(rings of three) fluctuate in width and shape, they become much harder for people that don't have a VERY "trained" eye to distinguish.

Years ago when the nelsoni was first introduced into the hobby, but still extremely rare, there were already a good number of Sinaloan's available to the public, so when the first albino nelsoni was produced from a very small limited stock, there weren't many true Nelson's available to the people that were in a big rush to produce the albinos, which were very pretty and very expensive at the time($2,000 dollars), so most people used the next best thing that looked VERY similar to produce them,...the Sinaloan.

*Sinaloan's are distinguished from nelsoni by several key traits, the RBR(red body rings) are usually two to two and a half times wider than the triads(rings of three), sometimes even wider on some specimens, animals from the Cosala, Mexico area are well noted for their wider RBR count, as well as their mottled snout of white and red pigment.

The black outer rings of the triads on Sinaloan's also are much narrower at the base, and do not tend to taper out much towards the top of the back when compared to nelsoni, many times being almost straight up and down. The snouts have varying amounts of white/yellow mottling, while some individuals are almost entirely black. Sinaloan's also tend to be a bit larger on average than nelsoni. The RBR on the tail portion just past the cloaca(vent) on Sinaloae tend to be more visible, and lsomewhat less obscured with black pigment as is typical with nelsoni.

The first black ring just behind the head is slightly thicker under the throat as well in sinaloae.

* Nelsoni on the other hand, have much narrower RBR(red body rings) than Sinaloans, and are usually one to two times as wide as the triad(rings of three) grouping, with the outer black rings being wider at the base and tapering outward on top of the dorsum(back) much more abruptly in an "arch-like" shape.

The snouts on nelsoni are usually a little more mottled with white flecking than on Sinaloans, with some outstanding examples being almost solid white.

The first black ring behind the head on nelsoni many times is incomplete under the throat, or is very thinly connected.

The tail portion of nelsoni are usually much more obscured with black pigment than are Sinaloans, and many times simply consist of black and white rings.

In any case, these are the key meristical differences between the two. Also, here are two outstanding examples of each that clearly show a discernable difference between the two. ....Hope this helps!

this is an outstanding male nelsoni I used to have well before the albino was ever produced.

Here is a nice example of Sinaloan produced from stock from the Cosala Area of Mexico. This outstanding animal is owned by Dave Niles, and posts here often.

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Wow, Doug, that was a very thorough reply! I really appreciate all the information you packed into that post - Thank you! Unfortunately, it still does not answer my question. Is there such thing as pure aberrant Nelson's Milks?

I understand that there is a lot of mixing going on between these two species. I am just wondering because I have been eyeing the abby Sins for a while and have just seen some abby Nelson's. If I decide to pick up any abby Nelson's, say at Daytona, could I feel confident labeling them as such?
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

The problem with that line your talking about is no one can give you a definete answer. I believe it came in like that and they had to guess what it was. Then it has been out crossed into the nelsonsinaloan trsde snake. So your hitting up the show?
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Ok, thanks. I guess if I get some, label them as one and explain to any potential buyers of the offspring that no one really knows how pure the lines are, huh?

Yup, I'll be visiting the show for my first time this year.
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

You better watch it at the show. You might end up leaving broke. I sadly know from being a victum of this sick sick addiction. At least I don't have anyone to answer to when I get home this time lol.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

Yeah, I am very aware of the extremely likely possibility of going home with full hands but empty pockets. I'm going to try to be a good girl, but I know myself too well. I don't know if it is a blessing or a curse, but my significant other actually encourages me to get more snakes!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Actually encourages the purchases!!!WOW!! Sounds like you should write a book on that one. Maybe if I could find a signifigant other in that mold I wouldn't be changing price labels.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

LOL, yeah I feel very lucky to have such support, especially after hearing so many people talk about convincing their partners that there is room for 'just one more snake'. Although it can be a bad thing when I am low on funds and I see that snake I just have to have, lol! That's when I probably should be getting a kick in the pants.

Say, are you going to make it the the Daytona show? How is that little Thayeri girl doing by the way?
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Me miss the show come on now. Yes I will be there and clinching my pockets. Mystique has developed quite the appetite for live fuzzies. It's like watch out when the tub opens. Thanks again.
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don't marry the cow when the milk is free when the milk drys up it's time for a new cow

silly boy!..LOL!
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Cool, glad you'll be able to make it there. That is great to hear that she is chowing down for you. I never offered her live before. She would usually eat f/t but she wouldn't come 'running' for them or anything.
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

To specifically answer the question,...yes, there are many different aberrant types of nelsoni including the so-called "bullseye" morph. It helps if you can see some of the parent stock that produced them, as well as if they have normals for sale too, this way you can look for some of the key features I talked about in the other post to distinguish what is what.

I can guarantee you will find some at Daytona, just take your time and look at them very carefully, and ask to see other stuff they have to see if they even know the differences are. If the other normal stuff looks as I described and showed you, then chances are much better of getting the "real deal" when it comes to aberrant ones too. Don't forget about the incomplete broken, or barely connected first black ring under the throat if the rest of the bands are too aberrant to distinguish, this can also be a helpful indicator.

If you see wide areas of black on the back, this can also help identify the nelsoni, as it would be much thinner in these areas on a true Sinaloan. Getting real familiar before Dayton by "googling" up a bunch of photos of either will also help you "train" your eye to a great degree. All this will certainly help.

If I go with Charlie to Daytona, and we see you there, We'll try to help out too!

In any case, don't just take someone's word for absolute,if what you want is a genuine nelsoni,.....I see so much incorrectly marked animals at the shows it can make your head spin,....this is why I think it is so important to get real familiar with stuff you like, and not depend on what "Joe Blow" tells you something is, because MANY of these people sell stuff as what they were "told", and they didn't know for themselves.

Have fun there, and good luck getting exactly what you want!

Here's another nice representation of nelsoni I had a while back

~Doug

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yeah, Listen to Dmong on this one Aubrey.I got in on this one a little late but I have some real deal aberrant nelsoni here.I have been working on this project for 12 years now.I bought a w/c aberrant nelsoni in (96) and I had already bought a amel bullseye male from Don Wilson for 2k. I bred the two together
and the aberrant I had was a co-dom trait.There was only three hatched and in the three two of them were aberrant and het amel.I took my sweet time growing them up then had them out on loan for several years and never saw anything come of it until this year.
I got them back from the breeding loan last year ( after more bad eggs) and this year I got slugs first round and then second clutch was five ferfect eggs.Out of the five eggs there are three amels and two normals.In the two normals one was bullseye and the other was really normal.
On the thre amels one is killer bullseye and two are bullseye and aberrant.Finnaly after 12 years I produce the double morph.

I will get some pics.

L8r Shannon

p.s. this old pic below is the wild caught.

Awesome Shannon!,.....I'm glad you finally got some gems from that pairing!,....and I'll look forward to the pics of the offspring.

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Cool, thanks Shannon for the info. That abby you have pictured is beautiful!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Thanks again Doug, your information has been most helpful! Perhaps I will see you at the show... ahh!! Two weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Aubrey,

Check out the following link on the origin of the splotched sinaloans and nelson's milks. From what I can gather, they're one and the same, although I'm sure Nate Wells could verify or deny the idea. Also, check out Bob Applegate's info on nelsoni and sinaloae for additional photos representing the two phases. Doug summarized everything pretty well (as per usual).

-Cole

Link - What Is It?!

Thanks for the link, Cole!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com