Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Tell me what you think. I've never seen one before so I don't know what they look like! From 100% Dbl Het X Scaleless Poss Het parents.

Is it Whitesided or not? I'm pretty sure it is but I'd like to see what everyone thinks.

Wow!,...I can't believe all the scaleless stuff I've been seeing lately, and of many different species/subspecies of snake too!

All the whitesided Black Rats I've seen don't have any, or very little pattern on the ventrolateral area, or the sides themselves...so although very unique and freaky, I don't think I would consider it a WS.

Could you explain one more time exactly what the parental genotypes are that were involved?

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Wow!,...I can't believe all the scaleless stuff I've been seeing lately, and of many different species/subspecies of snake too!
>>
>> All the whitesided Black Rats I've seen don't have any, or very little pattern on the ventrolateral area, or the sides themselves...so although very unique and freaky, I don't think I would consider it a WS.
>>
>> Could you explain one more time exactly what the parental genotypes are that were involved?
>>
>>
>> best regards, ~Doug
>>
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I dont think scaless is good
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My collection
1.0.0 Normal Taiwan Beauty Snake
1.1.0 Normal Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 White-sided Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 Anery Corn Snake
1.0.0 Amel Corn Snake
1.0.0 Normal Common Garter Snake
0.1.0 Hypo Northern Water Snake
0.0.8 red spotted newts

I don't care for them at all either,.....in my opinion, it's a severely defective trait that shouldn't be perpetuated.

I can see the trait becoming like so many other's,..........someone breeds an "alleged" pair of whatever, and out comes more scaleless offspring instead of what was expected..LOL!.....it seems almost impossible today to breed two corns together that are NOT het for at LEAST one trait, sometimes several,.....it will be the same with this "scaleless" thing one day.....arghh!!!.....I dread that day!!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Its cruel to the snake and you should never own them
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My collection
1.0.0 Normal Taiwan Beauty Snake
1.1.0 Normal Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 White-sided Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 Anery Corn Snake
1.0.0 Amel Corn Snake
1.0.0 Normal Common Garter Snake
0.1.0 Hypo Northern Water Snake
0.0.8 red spotted newts

I don't own any, and never plan to own or breed any, so you certainly don't need to convince me, or talk me out of the idea..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I don't own any, and never plan to own or breed any, so you certainly don't need to convince me, or talk me out of the idea..LOL!
>>
>> best regards, ~Doug
>>
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I know I just think it is cruel to buy and breed them b/c they must feel uncomfortable
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My collection
1.0.0 Normal Taiwan Beauty Snake
1.1.0 Normal Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 White-sided Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 Anery Corn Snake
1.0.0 Amel Corn Snake
1.0.0 Normal Common Garter Snake
0.1.0 Hypo Northern Water Snake
0.0.8 red spotted newts

I'm not sure they feel uncomfortable,...but I would imagine the exposed skin is somewhat more vulnerable to tearing if caught on things, but I've read from people that owned/bred them that this isn't the case,....but I'm not quite sure if that's just to make them "sound" more marketable to people or not...LOL!

In any case, I don't ever have a desire to own any scaleless snakes of ANY kind when there are so many other desirable types with scales..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I'm not sure they feel uncomfortable,...but I would imagine the exposed skin is somewhat more vulnerable to tearing if caught on things, but I've read from people that owned/bred them that this isn't the case,....but I'm not quite sure if that's just to make them "sound" more marketable to people or not...LOL!
>>
>> In any case, I don't ever have a desire to own any scaleless snakes of ANY kind when there are so many other desirable types with scales..LOL!
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I dont like morphs period
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My collection
1.0.0 Normal Taiwan Beauty Snake
1.1.0 Normal Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 White-sided Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 Anery Corn Snake
1.0.0 Amel Corn Snake
1.0.0 Normal Common Garter Snake
0.1.0 Hypo Northern Water Snake
0.0.8 red spotted newts

>>
>>I dont like morphs period

Then why do you have a whiteside black rat?
Why do you have an anery corn?
Why do you have ane amel corn?
Why do you have a hypo northern water snake?

I just don't get it. If you're going to be a hypocrite don't make it so damn easy to call you out by posting your collection in your signature.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

No need to curse draybar. I used to be into morphs and that stuff. Then I went to work at luray zoo. The man there told me the neg side effects. The water turned out to be normal though. Cool down man
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My collection
1.0.0 Normal Taiwan Beauty Snake
1.1.0 Normal Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 White-sided Black Rat Snake
1.0.0 Anery Corn Snake
1.0.0 Amel Corn Snake
1.0.0 Normal Common Garter Snake
0.1.0 Hypo Northern Water Snake
0.0.8 red spotted newts

Draybar what do you want me to do get rid of my snakes B/C of a change of heart?
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I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomarrow does not look good either.

I think the "zoo" guy might have been talking about SEVERE defects(mutations), and not color/pattern morphs, there is a big difference. Prolonged line breeding of siblings etc... of normal wild-type snakes are essentially just the same as inbreeding depression of any known morph. I think there was a big misunderstanding there somewhere.

The "bug-eyed" trait that is often exhibited with leucistic Texas Ratsnakes, or albino Burmese Pythons born without eyes are not very desireable traits to most people either, but it is easily remedied by the introduction of new blood from unrelated stock, that is certainly no big deal, it's when you constantly and repeatedly do this for many generations without doing any "outcrossing" that it can more often lead to problems of any kind, and is known as "inbreeding recession". A genetic color and/or pattern mutation in itself is harmless, unless it is let loose into wild stock. And ANY captive raised/bred animals should NOT be released into the wild anyway, morph OR normal wild-type, so that doesn't have much bearing here either.

In any case, these are just a few valid points regarding the perpetuation of color, and/or pattern mutations in captive-raised snakes.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

No No No. He know his stuff. He has an albino bull that cant ever strike the mouse dead center it always misses. The normal never misses. My black rats are the same way. This guy know his stuff. Draybar didnt have to be so rude
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I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomarrow does not look good either.

I assume you are being sarcastic and not honestly trying to make a population wide generalization based on a sample size of two specimens.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Yes,...that's exactly what I'm saying too. Just because one guy has an albino bull that can't hit the broad side of a barn when it strikes at prey, it certainly doesn't mean that all morphs(color/pattern mutations) are any less able to function as any other normal wild-type snake does. Heck, I have a few wild-caught snakes that I personally captured that have reluctant clumsy striking responses,...so what does that prove?..LOL!

After several decades of owning countless hundreds of snakes, and understanding genetics to a substancial level, I think I can safely make this statement with absolute confidence.

I don't doubt at ALL that the "zoo" guy and the poster both may have a morph that don't seem as coordinated as they should be,...but it certainly doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the snake not producing melanin,unless he is feeding it in bright sunlight!..LOL!.....if anything, it is due to the overbreeding of that particular strain of mutant bloodline without ever introducing unrelated animal stock. If you did the same thing with ANY animal,...morph or not, this can happen just the same, plain and simple.

I am certainly not saying morphs are any better or nicer than wild phenotypes either, because I don't care for MANY of the morphs that are produced today,...but I will say that the many morphs I own and breed are just as vigorous as any of the normal wild-types I have when it comes to feeding responses.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Are you serious?? Your friend at the zoo does not seem to be as learned as you think he is. To say something like that is just ludacris. I have kept countless reptiles in my lifetime and seen morphs and wild caughts that couldnt hit a bus if they wanted to. I have morphs that will nail food with such speed and ferocity that it blows me away everytime I see it. I've also seen the same wild caught species consistently miss food items to the point that its almost comical. As other people have stated the only way producing morph could potentially be bad is if it is produced by repeated inbreedings and such.

Exactly. Blame the breeder, not the morph.

personal opinion! some don't like color morphs, some hybrids, some mutations, some certain localities, some certain species, but face it, most people don't even like snakes. every one is entitled to their opinion, and in my opinion if they eat well and are in good health and even breed, they can't be that uncomfortable so go with it. those things are ausome! below in order are a mex bairds rat X texas rat, a bubblegum rat(albino black X yellow rat X glades rat), and a leiucistic black rat.

>>Draybar what do you want me to do get rid of my snakes B/C of a change of heart?
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>>I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomarrow does not look good either.

well, YES
If you come out with such a straitforward statement as "I don't like morphs, period", then why would you keep any morphs that you have? Afterall, you don't like morphs, period, do you??
whatever, just seemed contridictory to me.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I had my morphs then in march I went to work a Luray Rescue Zoo in Luray VA. The guy there told me that morphs are unatural. In about a month I was against all morphs. and to think I though you were a good guy now you want me to git rid of my snakes
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I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomarrow does not look good either.

morphs ARE natural. They're captive bred animals that display genetic abnormalities that occur naturally. There's no magic dust or strange chemicals that turn a normal cornsnake into a hypo. Someone found a hypo and caught it and bred it to produce more hypos.

and lack of black pigment in the skin does NOT effect eyesight. Your friend has a snake with poor eyesight that just happens to be an albino. I've had snakes with poor eyesight that were normal. It's 2 separate and unrelated things and the eyesight problem might not be genetic at all. It might be caused by parasites, infection, or any number of things. But one thing that it is not cause by is a lack of black pigment.

a lack of pigment or pattern caused by genetic mutation does not harm the snake in the slightest. They live just as long, they grow just as large and they are just as healthy as their normally patterned counterparts. And unlike humans, they don't seem to notice each other's difference in skin color.

Your Zoo "Expert" needs to get an education.
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The Reticulated Rattler

1.0.0 Great Plains Ratsnake
1.0.0 Corn, Lavender Aztec het for Amel
0.1.0 Black Ratsnake
0.0.1 Texas Rat (tame)
1.0.0 Broad Banded Water Snake, Hypo
1.0.0 Black Bassador Retriever
2.1.0 Godchildren, 1 Evil, 2 possible hets

Mark know this he does not say you shouldnt own a morph just dont breed it. man people are so damn ignorant
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I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomarrow does not look good either.

>> "Mark know this he does not say you shouldnt own a morph just dont breed it. man people are so damn ignorant"

Snakemaster,....I'm thinking this "zoo" guy is probably referring to all these morphs as being a "bad" in regards to being released into the wild ,..otherwise, he is totally wrong, and that is just his uninformed personal opinion with no basis behind it at all.

Yes,...you're right, many people are so damn ignorant!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yes many people are very ignorant. Most of all the people who do not do their own research on things and rely on other peoples opinions and mistated facts. Morphs are completely natural. Case in point, this is a WILD CAUGHT anery eastern garter snake. It was caught by me crossing the road......

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that anerythristic garter probably doesn't have an extremely clumsy feeding response....correct?..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

LOL! Considering it was found with a large prey item in it I would say you were correct! Not to mention it had no problem finding my hand when I grabbed it!!HAHA

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I like it. You should breed it.

I see "zoo" dude has got you "brain-washed" about this in rather short order. The fact is, I can see that he only knows VERY small bits and pieces about any of this, and is preaching this whole morph thing he is "bent" on as fact to others.

There are many people working at NASA as well, but it certainly doesn't mean all the janitors, maintainance workers tour guides, etc... that work there are renowned experts on space flight.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I had my morphs then in march I went to work a Luray Rescue Zoo in Luray VA. The guy there told me that morphs are unatural. In about a month I was against all morphs. and to think I though you were a good guy now you want me to git rid of my snakes
>>-----

I don't care if you keep them or not
according to you and your "zoo guy" they are terrible, inferior and just plain wrong and according to you personally you just "don't like them, period"
I just don't know why you would keep them if you are so strongly against them.

But I guess I am just ignorant.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

The same thing happened to me. I have three albino snakes, but would never buy them again. Now that I work in a reptile building, I see the detriment of such things and the excessive availability of beautiful, natural snakes. I wish people would breed less for crazy appearence and more for a temperment which would make the animals more suitable for pets and in captivity. No judgement, but I am definately on the same page.
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1.1 Ghost corns, 1.1 Butter het. stripe corns, 0.1 normal corn
1.1 Tremper Albino Leopard Geckos
1.0 Super dalmation crested, 1.1 Pinstripe crested, 2.1.1 Misc crested
1.0 Ghost Bull, 0.1 Snow bull

I don't understand the point at all there,...but yes!,....there are tons of great looking normal wild-type snakes as well.

Are you saying your albino "whatever's" are super clumsy and/or uncoordinated?. If so,...it is AGAIN due to people continuously overbreeding the exact same bloodline over and over again, and has nothing to do in itself with the snake being amelanistic.

I actually like great examples of wild-type snakes over many morphs in the hobby too, but I do have some great extremely healthy morphs as well. Beauty and health can be easily found in both.

~Doug




http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc140/DMong_bucket/Copy12ofIMG_0006-1.jpg" class="img-fluid my-2" alt="Image" loading="lazy">

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>The same thing happened to me. I have three albino snakes, but would never buy them again. Now that I work in a reptile building, I see the detriment of such things and the excessive availability of beautiful, natural snakes. I wish people would breed less for crazy appearence and more for a temperment which would make the animals more suitable for pets and in captivity. No judgement, but I am definately on the same page.
>>-----
>>1.1 Ghost corns, 1.1 Butter het. stripe corns, 0.1 normal corn
>>1.1 Tremper Albino Leopard Geckos
>>1.0 Super dalmation crested, 1.1 Pinstripe crested, 2.1.1 Misc crested
>>1.0 Ghost Bull, 0.1 Snow bull

You have more then three albino snakes, you have ghost corns and leopard gecko morphs and gopher morphs and crested gecko morphs, as a matter of fact you only have one non morph in your collection.
Anyway that is your choice but I don't quite get the point you are trying to make.
It sounds like in part of your statement that you are infereing that morphs are not as docile as normals ( I wish people would breed less for crazy appearence and more for a temperment which would make the animals more suitable for pets and in captivity)
there is no diference between morphs and normals as far as temperament and suitability for captivity.
Please explain what you mean because you sure have me confused.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I was gonna buy from you somedya now im glad i didnt
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I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomarrow does not look good either.

what does him not following your argument and not disliking morphs have to do with the quality of snakes he is selling?

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I don't know why everyone is getting so up in arms when I specifically said no judgement!

As for my signature, it hasn't been updated in a long time and isn't accurate, so don't try to throw it in my face and call me a hypocrite.

Amel's can't be in the sun safely. To create alot of the super morphs, inbreeding MUST occur, and most people do so excessively because it is cheaper and easier. Kinked spines, eye problems, internal flaws, they all happen.

And I never said morphs have worse personalities, that isn't even close to what I said.

As a process of domestication, animals are changed. Therefore, you can't say that it isn't ethical to breed snakes into non-natural forms. However, I wish people would breed for personality traits and behavior patterns that would allow snakes to have a better existance in captivity rather than just making them "pretty."

Alot of people have their money and much of their time tied up in their morphs, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that per se, it just isn't what I believe in anymore.

However, I wish people would breed for personality traits and behavior patterns that would allow snakes to have a better existance in captivity rather than just making them "pretty."

there you said it again
what do you mean?
You are insinuating that morphs do not have the same "personality" traits as normals and do not exist in captivity as well as normals.
Please explain this.
It doesn't make sense.

And I'm not the one that put those morphs in your signature so don't blame me for pointing them out.
and I DID not call you a hypocrite.....yet
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

While I don't agree with some of the statements they made, such as that amel's can't be out in the sun safely, I think I may know what they meant by the personality comment.

I think they were saying that if you are going to breed for a specific trait then it would be better to breed for personality/behavior then to breed for apearance. In other words place behavior above apearance/morphs on the priority chart in your breeding program. This would not mean that you had to only work with natural phases and would also not mean that morphs had bad personalities. Just a change in priority.

Two points to moderate that however are that people already do it as outcross programs and that while behavior is important it is the appearance that get's people into the hobby in the first place(natural or morph). As a result of the second point I do not think that morphs should be viewed as second class specimens.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

. Now that I work in a reptile building, I see the detriment of such things

Could you please explain these detriments you have seen by working in a reptile building.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>. Now that I work in a reptile building, I see the detriment of such things
>>
>>
>>Could you please explain these detriments you have seen by working in a reptile building.
>>-----
>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson
>>(Draybar)
>> Draybars Snakes
>>
>>_____

I am amd b/c you said I should get rid of my snakes
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I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomarrow does not look good either.

What does amd mean? What does amd have to do with telling us all what detriments you have seen?

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

BTW draybar, you posted a bairdi pic in the above post about everglades ratsnakes. Is that a mexican or texan bairdi? It's a pretty snake.
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1.1 Ghost corns, 1.1 Butter het. stripe corns, 0.1 normal corn
1.1 Tremper Albino Leopard Geckos
1.0 Super dalmation crested, 1.1 Pinstripe crested, 2.1.1 Misc crested
1.0 Ghost Bull, 0.1 Snow bull

>>BTW draybar, you posted a bairdi pic in the above post about everglades ratsnakes. Is that a mexican or texan bairdi? It's a pretty snake.
>>-----

Texas bairdi
That is Sam
If you have never worked with or owned bairdis, and you get a chance to, go for it.
They are great snakes.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

One reason why people buy and breed morphs is because of counterproductive animal protection legistlation.

Here in California it is illegal to keep native species without a fishing liscense and even then you can not breed or sell them without a seperate native species propogation permit. Both of those permits cost money and one of them makes you have to deal with inspections which then places you at risk of having your entire collection, including non-native specimens, confiscated and thus doomed to likely death by poor husbandry while in the care of fish and game.

The exception to this is if the native species specimen has pink eye's. As a result it is vastly more convenient to keep native species morphs then it is to keep natural phase specimens here.

Personally I preffer the natural appearance of Pacific Gopher Snakes but because of the legistlation I am getting Snow Pacific Gopher Snakes instead.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Dude... That thing is freaking awesome!!!

WOW- so much BASHING and bad talk by people who haven't even owned a scaless snake before. All of the "problems" acssociated with scaleless snakes seem to be nothing more than rumors. After having talked with three different breeders that keep/breed scaleless snakes, I would have love to invest into the projects.
-They shed normal....
-Feed normal....
-Act normal....

I aplaud Drybar is his defense of morphs. I have had HUNDREDS of animals over the years...everything from WC's to Triple homozygous morph animals... Other than "inbreeding depression" (which can even be LINE BRED "normal corn", I don;t really see any difference in feeding responses, behavior, etc. out of my morphs!

CONGRATS Boneyard Reptiles on your beautiful babies...