Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Please do not take it personal, althought I am sure most do not know how to. As proven down below.

While its noble, that you think you are doing something good and I hope you are. What happens to the other 250,000 or so Savs that are imported every year????? Surely the plan is that they die. IF they lived, we would be covered wall to wall with them. Just think what would happen if You rescuers actually learned to keep monitors. A certain percentage would grow up and reproduce. Say, 20% (sounds low). That would make 50,000 breeders and they could easily produce 1,500,000 offspring a year.(30 babies a year). Just think what five years would do. That would come to 7.5M of offspring in five years. Remember thats not including the 250,000 more that are indeed imported every year. You do know that those numbers are very conservative. They surely can produce way way more then that and a much higher percentage can produce. IF ONLY WE KNEW HOW TO KEEP THEM

Well its good thing we don't because if we did, we would have to limit breeding them and competely shut the borders to the new ones.

So, yes I understand why you do not want to learn how to keep them normally. If we did, there would be problems of untold proprotions.

I mean the methods to keep them healthy(which leads to breeding) are out there and being used everyday. So, its not like someone has to invent something.

While this whole thing is an efford to show the real possibilities. It does also show that if even 10% were bred in captivity, then there would be no need to steal them from nature. 10% come on, how hard can that be????

So I bounce back to the original question, what are the rescuers doing, rescuing what? 1 or 2 out of the 250000 imported every year. What about the rest? It does seem to me that you rescuers are sitting around playing with a couple of monitors, while the real problem goes unaddressed. The problem is not the dozen or hundred or even thousand that get rescued, its the wave of tens of thousands that are imported every year. ADDRESS THAT, and do not blame me or get upset with me. I guess it goes back to my old worn out saying, use your head and think. AS that is what humans are suppose to do. F

PS. sorry for getting harsh at the end, but this subject tends to pi$$ you off.

I almost feel bad for even possessing my Varanid. If only the whole world was ran on common sense! Thanks.

is that though intentions are well the majority of the animals will still die. If the mortality rate went down then the masses of savs. would be overwhelming. The reason why so many are imported is to replace all those who die. There would be less of a market if most of the savs. that were imported stayed alive. In fact I have adopted / taken in animals but I don't consider them rescues as they belonged to someone previously. An aqusition of an animal wiether it is a 8,000 V.Varius or a free V. exmanthicus it is life that must be taken care of. A rescue is not a lifetime commiment just a short term situation that temporarily preserves a life. Like CPR is a method performed in an effort to rescue someone. If the person revives then you & they go your seperate ways you do have to, in most cases, make it a lifetime commitment.

You do not have to ,in most cases, make it a lifetime commitment.

Frank, I read your posts below and the one that was just posted. Although seemingly harsh, I couldn't agree with you more. Our wildlife center does many "rescues". In the case of native herps/wildlife, they are rehabbed and released if possible. If they cannot be released, we give them a high quality of life and in some cases, they are used for education or captive breeding programs (once again, depending on the circumstances). In terms of the many exotic herp "rescues" we do at our wildlife center, they will never go back into the wild (for obvious reasons). BUT, we are knowledgeable and spare NO expense at giving these animals a high quality of life. We have set up extensive networks with similar facilities such as our's and experienced private keepers who help us to take the surplus. Our focus is on education and I think that rescuing a herp for this reason is a valid purpose for living. Some are used for captive breeding but serve no real conservation purpose (other than the native herps we are working with).

What does irk me is when I see other "rescuers" who take in animals and basically take them from one bad situation and put them in an even worse situation. Recently, for example, a savannah monitor was rescued from a forest preserve by a private individual who supposedly is an "expert". Well, when I came over to get the animal (as he said that he was maxed out on herps), I couldn't believe what I saw. A beautiful monitor caged in a chicken wire cage with chicken wire bottom with no heat. There were abrasions all over the animals (fresh ones) and he said that the lizard came in this way. I gave him an earful (much to his shock) and took the lizard where it now resides with a small colony of savs in a beautiful enclosure. Personally, I think that the monitor would have been better off staying in the forest preserve to enjoy a short period of a quality life.

I have been to many private homes of people who consider themselves to be "herp rescues" only to find animals being kept in deplorable conditions....really a shame.

But to this end, I will also say that I know MANY folks who are absolutely wonderful and knowledgeable people when it comes to reptile "rescues" (maybe not in the pure terms as you mentioned but in terms of rescuing an animal from a bad situation and giving them a high quality life). I don't come here often so I am not sure what sparked all of this fuss.

On a sidenote, are you attending the Tinley Park show in Illinois in October? Hope to see you there (I am showcasing Illinois' native venomous snakes as part of their educational component).

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

Hi, its nice to see you around. I am sorry but I do not think I will be at the Chicago show. I least I do not think i will be, hahahahahahahaha.

There is no real point, at least by me, for this "rescue" thread, just discussing the subject.

The newest post by me, I think brings out the size of the problem. For instance, how many Savs can you and your network house??? in a year, in two, in three, etc?

If you do your job and actually teach this network to keep monitors alive, then it will indeed reach saturation very quickly. As Savs can live easily 10 years and at times twice that. During the average lifespan of one Sav, 2.5 million will be imported. Where do they go???????

I guess I am hoping some will understand that we need to stop imports and breed our own Savs. If we did, they would no longer be so cheap, there would not be an excess. The monitors themselves would cost more then the cages they go in.

Everything is in place to breed them in captivity, but we cannot because of mass imports. How very sad.

But the imediate problem is still the mass die offs of most the imports. I have to ask those rescuers, why is the one you have more important then all the others? F

I hate that "I" am the only "bad guy rescuer" answering these questions but here goes.

Why was this particular one more important? Because they were literally laid at my feet and they were dying, I am just thanking God they weren't NILES! I did not do it because it was a monitor, in fact I had never had a desire to own a monitor. Because this one animal in particular (well two actually) needed my help. I had no desire to build a 3x15 foot enclosure full of DIRT! I had no desire prior to getting these to have an animal that ate more than all my other reptiles put together. But now I have half a room dedicated to these guys. I don't consider myself a rescuer of "monitors" but I do consider taking an animal that was about to die and treating it the way you all recommend keeping one, a rescue. If more would come my way I would probably have them euthanized before seeing them suffer and I know I don't have the room, nor desire to have more myself. I am not a rescuer in the sense that I will move them on, they'll just stay here until they die, I mean...what ELSE can I do with a room full of 240 pounds of DIRT! <G>

I would not buy nor breed savannahs. If they do breed, I won't hatch the eggs. I'll leave that up to you guys who are choosing the more expensive monitors to breed then asking why "no one is breeding savannahs?" I would ask the breeders that, and those who are actually selling monitors that, before I questioned someone who really doesn't "owe" the species anything.
Nina

Absolutely Frank. This is a HUGE problem and savs, like ball pythons and many other imported herps, are disposable animals in the eyes of the exporters/wholesalers/pet stores/etc (even pet owners, many who frequent these forums). I wish there was an easy answer to this but there isn't. The average Joe Shmo will look at identical looking savs on a table. The c/b one is more expensive so he opts for the imported, w/c animal....if they understood conservation they would understand that paying a few more bucks for a c/b is the best way to go. If we had more people dedicated towards working with this species, there's no doubt, that w/c animals coming into the U.S. would decrease (at least to some point I would hope). We have, I assume, a great genetically diverse pool with the current savs in captivity; now its time to see if we can actually see people commit themselves to working and breeding them (realizing that they are not breeding high end monitors or other prized herps)....heck, I breed some nice, "high end" animals (eastern indigos, gila monsters, olive pythons, gtp's, etc....these are animals I just personally enjoy breeding which is why I call them "high end", but some of my favorite projects include breeding smooth green snakes, eastern massasaugas, blanding's turtles, and other lesser known herps that people SHOULD appreciate(particularly those who live in my neck of the woods)....breeding these animals, especially green snakes, is not an easy task but that is why I enjoy it; because it's a challenge and something that I feel is important. Now I am rambling and have no real point here, so, I'll shut up.

I have to get in here too... When the majority of keepers buy Savannah's they, are, and you're right FR, buying the cheapest, most widely available animal they can that looks "cool" and then they find out how much of a comittment the monitor is and want to get rid of it.. or keep it under the false belief they're "doing the best they can" with it. And then someone like me comes along and see's just how terrible the animal looks and can't quite help taking it home. Now I didn't do this with My Savannah though I had thought seriously about it.... however I have done so in the past with Iguana's. My sister had one...keeping it on dried corn cob bedding and feeding it iceberg lettuce in a 30 gallon fish tank. I took it away from her...because it was dying and I couldn't stand watching that. I brought it to the vets, nursed it to health and found a permanent home for it... Many times its a person's feeling that they've "rescued" an animal from horrid conditions. What makes that individual special is that they're ultimately right in front of someone...and when you can see it instead of just hearing about it, it makes it more real, more immediate. Some people feel its better that you do all you can for one.. so at least that one is in a better place. I do understand the problem in that though because it only encourages the import of more such animals who, ultimately, are doomed to die lingering and often painful deaths. And even then, some of those "rescued" are doomed to the same fate unless someone has the dedication to really and truly devote themselves to the finding of knowledge and minitary expense of keeping an animal who's daily upkeep is expansive. And those keepers are few and far between I know which truly is sad for the many animals who die every year. I mean, look what we do to dogs and cats... and we're going the same way with reptiles... Humans are a wasteful species.. but their greatest crime is the waste of life happening daily.. both human life and animal.

Hi Frank. I am happy that this subject continues as I believe it is an important one. I also need to make clear that I am not into rescuing animals, and in fact don't even own any monitors. I keep a small collection of reptiles that get the the very best care I can possibly give.

I am also a realist and understand the outrageous waste of life that occurs with reptiles in general, not only Savs. Since they don't have fur or feathers and don't generally make good house pets, they are largely viewed as a novelty pet by the general public and therefore disposable. But again, I ask what are the experienced keepers doing about the problem? The solution to the problem lies in education, just like everything in life - if you understand the problem than steps can be taken to correct it. I can remember, as I'm sure you can, when breeding boids in captivity was a rarity. It was a big mystery and only the experts, mostly zoos, were able to do it by reproducing exact temperature, humidity, photoperiods, etc to get these great animals to reproduce. Now, it's commonplace and you can pick up any good book or look up the recipe on the internet, purchase some quality stock and produce Retics, Burms, any number of varieties of Boa, Bloods (I remember seeing some of the first big, nasty bloods that were available down here in S. FL back in the late 80's - scary animals!), etc. These are animals (with the exception of the Burms) that were generally thought to be very hard to breed. There was a huge sharing of knowledge in the 80's and more importantly, the 90's, that led the snake-keeping hobby to the point is it at now. I know monitors are a much more complex group of animals, but if the "experts" like yourself would help to spread the knowledge instead of just berating, belittling, or just ignoring newbies with basic husbandry questions (whether they've just bought a monitor or "rescued" one) then we could get on the program of captive breeding thus limiting the numbers of doomed, imported monitors coming into the country every year. Not only that, but the CBB animals would also be much healthier, stronger and better adapted to life in a captive environment. This will take time but the time to start is now and if we can help the person who just "rescued" the poor sickly Sav (like Katrina) to give the best possible quality of life, maybe that one person will take the ball and run with it to become the Sav expert. You never know where someone will go with a little encouragement and knowledge.I quote you, Frank,and challenge you to change your thinking to a more proactive vein, "Just think what would happen if You rescuers actually learned to keep monitors." The only place to learn right now is from individuals who ARE doing it right. Just think...

Billy

>>Hi Frank. I am happy that this subject continues as I believe it is an important one. I also need to make clear that I am not into rescuing animals, and in fact don't even own any monitors. I keep a small collection of reptiles that get the the very best care I can possibly give.
>>
>>I am also a realist and understand the outrageous waste of life that occurs with reptiles in general, not only Savs. Since they don't have fur or feathers and don't generally make good house pets, they are largely viewed as a novelty pet by the general public and therefore disposable. But again, I ask what are the experienced keepers doing about the problem? The solution to the problem lies in education, just like everything in life - if you understand the problem than steps can be taken to correct it. I can remember, as I'm sure you can, when breeding boids in captivity was a rarity. It was a big mystery and only the experts, mostly zoos, were able to do it by reproducing exact temperature, humidity, photoperiods, etc to get these great animals to reproduce. Now, it's commonplace and you can pick up any good book or look up the recipe on the internet, purchase some quality stock and produce Retics, Burms, any number of varieties of Boa, Bloods (I remember seeing some of the first big, nasty bloods that were available down here in S. FL back in the late 80's - scary animals!), etc. These are animals (with the exception of the Burms) that were generally thought to be very hard to breed. There was a huge sharing of knowledge in the 80's and more importantly, the 90's, that led the snake-keeping hobby to the point is it at now. I know monitors are a much more complex group of animals, but if the "experts" like yourself would help to spread the knowledge instead of just berating, belittling, or just ignoring newbies with basic husbandry questions (whether they've just bought a monitor or "rescued" one) then we could get on the program of captive breeding thus limiting the numbers of doomed, imported monitors coming into the country every year. Not only that, but the CBB animals would also be much healthier, stronger and better adapted to life in a captive environment. This will take time but the time to start is now and if we can help the person who just "rescued" the poor sickly Sav (like Katrina) to give the best possible quality of life, maybe that one person will take the ball and run with it to become the Sav expert. You never know where someone will go with a little encouragement and knowledge.I quote you, Frank,and challenge you to change your thinking to a more proactive vein, "Just think what would happen if You rescuers actually learned to keep monitors." The only place to learn right now is from individuals who ARE doing it right. Just think...
>>
>>Billy

You do bring up an important thought. And that is, its not the "80's. If it was, if would be far more understandable.

Your example of ball pythons is a great one. They are being bred to a point they are no longer recognized as ball pythons. But they are still imported for a few bucks. Both markets are strong. The Color phase market is strong and full of healthy ball pythons and the low dollar imports, mostly die. If the imports were slowed why down, only the import low dollar market would be effected. This is entirely the point I am trying to get some people to see. There would still be less expensive Ball pythons, just not in such high numbers. Its the high numbers of low dollar monitors that creates the need for "rescues" and rescuers.

You live in Fla.? thats where some of the largest breeders of reptiles in the world live and work. Some put out over 100,000 units a year. Do you think they cannot bred Savs? I wonder why they don't? I visited one breeder who had recently recieved thousands of baby ball pythons. They housed them all individually and fed each and every one. He did not sell any that were sick or weak. Yet, they still died. Why is that? F

I know so many people who have had green iguanas, ball pythons, bosc and nile monitors for a few weeks to 6 months yet never had another reptile before or after them. The price is very low and the animal suffers for the lack of proper care. Ive known 2 people to raise a nile to a very big adult for a few years then sell them or one died being cared for by someone else during a move to make room(there are a few others but not that Ive seen in person), they are imported at a rate of 16000 a year, what happened to the rest all of these years? Ive seen even less bosc monitors make it through their first 6 months to a year over the years in this hobby, yet they come in by figures much higher than niles.
Recently a coworker of mine bought a bosc hatchling and he is genuinely interested and has spent lots on caging, food, heating, proper substrates, and his wife and daughter help him care for it to. He has made it a point to ask questions alot on anything hes unsure about, so I help him out as much as I can.

And EVERYWHERE for that matter.