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I think I disagree with your philosophy below.

As an aside, I'm not a big fan of taping croc's mouths shut - as a curator of a well known herp facility that performs to thousands of people annually, we feel it sends the wrong message so when we use various crocs, they do not have their mouths taped shut. But, that's just our philosophy.

I'm unsure why your not a big fan of taping past the temporary annoyance to the crocodilian. It is much safer for the handler and in our experience the crocodilian as well particuarly when travel is involved. Then again we keep and move alot more crocodilains than you do so the necessity may not be the same.

I'm unsure how proper safety and handling sends the wrong message to the general public. We maintain the opposite stance that animals used in educational settings and shows should be secured as a sign of responsibility to the animal, the handler, and the patron. We feel the message is 'This is a dangerous animal we have made less so temporarily for your educational benefit'. In fact during demonstration shows if we don't tape we are often asked why we don't do so.

We handle numerous crocodilians daily and do 100's of events annually and all our Niles are taped at each show where public contact is possible. We are a little more lenient with a few of our smaller alligators but not much.

I just found your comment interesting.
website

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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

I'm going to venture a guess here that Rob's shows don't involve patron/customer contact with the crocodilian for one simple reason.

Most people are dumb.

Plain and simple. I think it's quite obvious that common sense isn't so common and that given the opportunity, there will be someone dumb enough to try something really dumb, like running their fingers across the croc's mouth.

I'm not a curator, or one who holds educational shows. I'm one who teaches sport and consults in IT. I can report that there are plenty of dumb people in every crowd.

Hi Chris, hope all's well for you. I was just reading your book the other day as my staff and I are looking at doing a few new things to our exhibits and your info came in handy.

This is one of those "there's no right or wrong" because public safety is always the most important thing when having any human-animal contact. I just personally think it portrays the animal in a slightly negative way in that we are forcing something on the animal that it doesn't want to do (don't get me wrong, the gator/croc could probably care less but its just a public perception and when it comes to wildlife conservation education, that's a very important component of the message). I can also see how it would be showing respect to the animal by taping its mouth shut but having presented to thousands of people and worked closely with many educational specialists, conservation folks, curriculum writers, etc I just decided that not taping was a more effective message. We use small crocs for hands-on interaction but its very controlled. The head of the animal is always away from the audience and towards my keepers and we keep very close eye on the animal and the people. In 20 years, we've never even so much as have had a nip. We will, in controlled situations, even allow folks to handle these animals but its very controlled. For crocs over 3-4' then we just use them for demonstration purposes. There's no doubt that I'm in the minority on this and I do not look down at all on those who do tape crocs....with all things being equal, safety is more important.

Rob

>>I'm going to venture a guess here that Rob's shows don't involve patron/customer contact with the crocodilian for one simple reason.
>>
>>Most people are dumb.
>>
>>Plain and simple. I think it's quite obvious that common sense isn't so common and that given the opportunity, there will be someone dumb enough to try something really dumb, like running their fingers across the croc's mouth.
>>
>>I'm not a curator, or one who holds educational shows. I'm one who teaches sport and consults in IT. I can report that there are plenty of dumb people in every crowd.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

If I may add my .02
Having been part of our program for 15 years I have a lot of experience with the taping/no taping discussion that has been brought up. When our show first started in 1988 we taped our big show gators during transport and taped our juvies that the people would hold for photos. The sores that would develop from the pressure used to apply the tape became problematic. So much that some of the animals that we have in our ponds have scars from them. These wounds and scars can develop from just having their jaws taped once. I had to come up with a better solution then black electrical tape.
We stopped taping the alligators jaws shut every time we moved them and transported them in aluminum transport cases which would hold water. Problem solved.
For the juvies that the audience can touch or hold, I started using black velcro with the soft side against the jaws. The kind of velcro that is used to hold extension cords together works well. I made the band just snug enough that it could be slipped over the the animals mouth, but not easily slipped off. Over time the animal would learn that "hold time" is not "bite time". The pair of juvies that I use for photos now will not open their mouths period. The only problem with this is I am constantly bombarded with questions as to why they do not open their mouths. I have to repeat myself dozens of times during the day with the explanation. I have recently began using VetWrap, which comes in various colors, at some events.
I guess the bottom line is that everyone is different. Some people really like the peace of mind that a banded animal comes with. In this day and age of litigation a banded animal makes sense. Some people like the "apparent" danger of holding a non-banded animal. I try to cater to every persons concerns.
The conclusion I have come to is that black electrical tape is not suitable for my application. If I feel a animal needs to be banded, it will be with VetWrap or velcro with the soft side against the animals mouth.
Bert

Interesting I must say on both your part and Rob's. We use electrical tape primarily because it causes so few problems when done correctly. When the surface is kept broad and not spiraled it provides virtually no pressure and can be loosely applied. We have never seen so much as a scale damaged by it's usage.

We don't tape for long though, 1-3 hours max usually and we rotate among a large group of animals.

I do like the black velcro idea from a pratical standpoint and it's reusable but the pressure from the tape and the velcro would/could be roughly the same. I think the application matters more.

The vetwrap I have never tried but may soon.

Good discussion.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

This is indeed a great discussion because we all share unique experiences and many dealings with the public. Believe me, I have struggled with this issue and still do, however, we don't allow the public to free handle (untaped) anything over approx. 24" and even then, it's very controlled. I might change my mind when our little saltie starts to reach larger proportions. I like the idea of Vet Wrap and even the velcro. We, too, have used electrical tape when doing croc rescues/captures (yes, even in the Chicago area!) and will use the tape to transport animals - haven't experienced any sores/problems but the tape is only on for the time we are traveling which is usually less than two hours.

Once again, no right or wrongs here. A good friend of mine, Jim Nesci, owns "Cold Blooded Creatures" (I think its www.coldbloodedcreatures.com ) and he does not tape his crocs and has some strong beliefs/viewpoints. He's been doing this for many, many years w/out a single accident. I also have a good friend who, for the first time, had a little "nip" from an untaped gator - thankfully, it was non consequential but in my situation, could have easily led to a lawsuit. With all things being equal, human safety is first priority and if that requires crocs to be taped, I can't argue with that.

>>Interesting I must say on both your part and Rob's. We use electrical tape primarily because it causes so few problems when done correctly. When the surface is kept broad and not spiraled it provides virtually no pressure and can be loosely applied. We have never seen so much as a scale damaged by it's usage.
>>
>>We don't tape for long though, 1-3 hours max usually and we rotate among a large group of animals.
>>
>>I do like the black velcro idea from a pratical standpoint and it's reusable but the pressure from the tape and the velcro would/could be roughly the same. I think the application matters more.
>>
>>The vetwrap I have never tried but may soon.
>>
>>Good discussion.
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>>CDieter
>>'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hi Rob,

I personally do not yet see the merit in not taping the animal if the public is going to have any interaction at all with an animal more than perhaps 2ft. If you are doing a demonstration I still think they should be taped but I could see some latitude there on a case by case basis simply because we have all seen 'calm' alligators.

As your friend's 'nip' demonstrates it only takes one bite and that can cause both public perception, business, and health problems. At the end of the day I just ask is it worth it even in the most remote sense?

I will add that Gatorland has some of the most stringent safety measures of any crocodilian facility and they tape their animals for public interaction. I think someone like Nesci who keeps a few animals is different from Gatorland or our facility here. The numbers are radically different as are the interactions and intentions with the animals. Alligators are much more forgiving than many species of crocs.
website

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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Interesting topic

We do about 50 alligator demonstrations per week here. After each we bring out 'fluffy' over the years we have used East and West African Niles, American Alligators, American Crocodiles,Freshwater Crocodiles and Salties. up until about 3-4 feet in length. We use the same individual for a full week then rotate it out with another specimen. We do use electrical tape on them just to cover the 'what ifs'

We have never had any damage caused by using it. During transport it is much better to leave them untaped but we have shipped them taped in the past. When we brought in our big salty from Oz. we left him taped with the option to remove it if needed with no ill effects. (actually come to think of it that was with duct tape on him)

We have many times 4-500 people touch 'fluffy' after each presentation and with that volume of people I just can't justify leaving one untaped. I occasionally find my staff get lazy and simply hold the mouth shut by hand...On one occasion..Lol, we had a particularly thickheaded 'gatorboy' whom didnt tape the mouth shut of a particularly feisty animal and received a beautiful 'purple nurple' right around the nipple! he started taping them shortly thereafter

I don't see anything wrong with different methods. Though I do think anyone who works with large amounts of Crocodilians will be able to explain the unexpected when it comes to them. Even from 'tame' individuals... To many lawsuit driven people in this world for me.

Cheers All!

T-
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Those are great points Terry. Volume of human interactions is probably a good barometer for what should and shouldn't be done. We are a fairly small facility where the same three staff use the crocs for education programs and we probably have approximately 500 interactions over the course of a year with our crocs. Like I said, with all things being equal, safety is always more important and should dictate handling policies - you guys put enough info in my pea brain that I might even re-look at how we've been doing some things. Interestingly, we underwent a recent mandatory safety audit as part of our requirements with our city's insurance folks. When the auditors came, they told me that they are always far more concerned with facilities that keep large predatory mammals versus large reptiles including venomous species. I found that very interesting.

The auditors did question some of the hands on components - not many but one that stood out was the use of crocs and not having them better restrained (tape) so who knows, we may be forced to change things irregardless of personal philosophy.

>>Interesting topic
>>
>>We do about 50 alligator demonstrations per week here. After each we bring out 'fluffy' over the years we have used East and West African Niles, American Alligators, American Crocodiles,Freshwater Crocodiles and Salties. up until about 3-4 feet in length. We use the same individual for a full week then rotate it out with another specimen. We do use electrical tape on them just to cover the 'what ifs'
>>
>>We have never had any damage caused by using it. During transport it is much better to leave them untaped but we have shipped them taped in the past. When we brought in our big salty from Oz. we left him taped with the option to remove it if needed with no ill effects. (actually come to think of it that was with duct tape on him)
>>
>>We have many times 4-500 people touch 'fluffy' after each presentation and with that volume of people I just can't justify leaving one untaped. I occasionally find my staff get lazy and simply hold the mouth shut by hand...On one occasion..Lol, we had a particularly thickheaded 'gatorboy' whom didnt tape the mouth shut of a particularly feisty animal and received a beautiful 'purple nurple' right around the nipple! he started taping them shortly thereafter
>>
>>I don't see anything wrong with different methods. Though I do think anyone who works with large amounts of Crocodilians will be able to explain the unexpected when it comes to them. Even from 'tame' individuals... To many lawsuit driven people in this world for me.
>>
>>Cheers All!
>>
>>T-
>>-----
>>It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!
>>
>>Terry Phillip
>>Curator of Reptiles
>>Black Hills Reptile Gardens
>>Rapid City, SD.
>>
>>www.reptilegardens.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

>>I do like the black velcro idea from a pratical standpoint and it's reusable but the pressure from the tape and the velcro would/could be roughly the same. I think the application matters more.
>>
>>The vetwrap I have never tried but may soon.

I have not really liked vet wrap when containing animals in groups. It isnt as resistant and strong as the e-tape. It is however nice if you have one one display and handled. My issue with it is it stretches out easily. I do not like it long term.

I do not have the experience any of you do. I have been working up slowly in size for display size. The largest I have on display alone has been 3.5 foot. I have E-tape on hand, limit out of cage handling to 20-30 mins at most, do not do anything with the animal with out a second person with me. I use many of the same protocols as Rob. Im a baby in the crocodilian world and just cutting my teeth on the education part. But my protocols are basically the same as Rob's.
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Cindy
PHFaust

Email Cindy

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