Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What are the expert opinions on keeping dwarf monitors in groups? I've heard most people say that raising them in groups is the way to go, otherwise, introducing them later can lead to problems.

I've also spoken to VERY experienced breeders that have been around for decades that say this is a dangerous way to go. I've heard of pilbara's eating each other (same or very similar sized to each other). I've also heard of it stressing them out. I haven't heard about these issues as often, I'm wondering why? Perhaps cannibalism and high stress is due to cramped caging or lack of hides?

I doubt that all monitors are the same when it comes to these things, just wanted to get some more opinions. What have you experienced with your dwarf monitors?

Some of the monitors that I'd like to hear opinions on are:
V. tristis (both subspecies)
V. Glauerti
V. Pilbarensis
V. Storri
V. Gilleni

We have been keeping and producing pilbaras since 2001 every year and now Gilleni and Glauerti. Common sense plays a major role in any species of lizard,monitor ect. In the wild they have enough room to seperate and come together usually for breeding purpose. We tried to raise pilbaras in groups of 2 or three and every time there was a fatality one way or another. We soon learned keeping them seperate made all the differance in the world, and when they are old enough to take your best guess at sexing put them together and they know what to do.
Cheers, Bob Sutton
Maxians Collection

From what Bob has to say is, I have been keeping all the species he has, and many more for more then a decade longer and I do not have problems with groups, In fact, much the opposite. I experience superior results in all areas of captive success, with groups.

But without question, I agree with Bob. Use common sense.

There are many common sense sayings, like, When in doubt, Charley out. Which means, if its not A and its not B, it must be C(charley)

In this case, keeping monitors in groups, it works or doesn't work, and it works or doesn't work keeping them apart. There are indeed problems either way. So its not A(in groups) or B(keeping them solitary) So it must be C.

So what the heck is C?

Lets talk about husbandry, its a learned and applied science. Which means, we all have different aspects and different experiences and different approaches and more importantly different resources. So expecting a simple answer like YES or NO, is more then naive, its stupid. Its stupid because we already know monitors are a bit complicated compared to other behaviorally simple reptiles.

So what I am saying is, varanids are NOT behaviorally simple. They are complicated. That means, we keepers must learn more and more about the subject, not simply stick to the first rule that makes sense to you.

So as a new keeper, you want the odds on your side, your want to make sure you cover your very own ignorance. Start with a young pair and keep them together. That has the best odds of succeeding if reproduction is part of your goals.

After that it becomes more and more complicated. Keeping them solitary has its own set of complications and keeping them in larger groups also offers up a huge set of complications for the new keeper. Depending on species, it complicates any level of keeper.

In my experience, there is nothing better then a bonded pair or a good working group. Its a thing of beauty. Also in my experience and OPINION, there is nothing worse then a single animal in a cage. Of course, that has nothing to do with science. I think animals, NEED a reason to live. And keeping an animal in solitary offers nothing other then food to live for. GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO LIVE FOR.

We find that monitors love to live. They love to feed, they love to reproduce, they love to fight, yes, to fight. To fight is part of their lives. Again, common sense says, do not let them kill eachother, just let them do what they do naturally.

So yes, we let them fight if they want. I learned early on, theres a difference between casual fighting and attempting to kill eachother. A monitor can kill another monitor is less then a minute. So if you have monitors bickering forth and back, then that has nothing to do with wanting to kill or eliminate the combatants. I have to say, mice bicker, birds bicker(boy howdy) dogs, cats, all manner of animals that live in groups BICKER. Yet, monitor keepers think monitors are NOT suppose to bicker. WELL SIRS, they do bicker. That is how they maintain a GROUP.

Our job as keepers it to offer our captives a full life(as full as we can) not offer a life of solitary confinement. Then place animals together according to OUR AGENDA. I let them create there own groups and go by their own agenda. Actually thats how I learn and what keeps me interested.

If I kept them seperate and only placed them together for breeding purposes, I would suspect I would only do that for money. But I keep monitors for the joy of learning, so I do not follow that approach. I let them teach me.

Your task as a keeper is not to be told what works or doesn't work. But to figure out how to reach your goals and your animals goals. NEVER forget the animals have their own goals and agendas. Just because you(all of U's) do not understand them, does not mean they do not exsist.

SO what is C, its you, your C. You must learn how to keep them in groups or solitary for that matter. Each area has lots of things you must learn. So I guess Bob has some learnin to do. hahahahahahahahaha. Because without question, monitors can indeed work well in groups. In fact work in a superior way. Cheers

This is a subject I've often hoped you'd touch on. I've seen you post countless times about the importance of providing an environment that your monitors can acheive what you call "life events" ie. feeding, growing, breeding, nesting, egg laying etc. This may seem like a remedial question and I believe you alluded to the answer above, but if a solitary animal obviously can't acheive a good portion of these life events without a mate, then do you believe that it's not possible to keep one individual monitor happy and healthy? By healthy I don't meen simply eating and breathing, but thriving as much as is possible in captivity without ever being given the chance to reproduce. In other words if one hopes to provide the most ideal situation possible, is a mate necessary, or can a monitor live a full and healthy life without ever being bred?

I would love for my blackthroat to have another female to associate with.

I third this question. It's a question that's been asked but never answered before.

This is a very important question. Yes, you can allow a monitor to be healthy physically. But I question if you can keep a monitor mentally healthy when kept solitary.

When you have working animals, they will willingly give their lifes to partake in life events. It is their goal to create new generations, its what they do. And this is both in nature and captivity.

Consider, the end result in all behavior is to continue exsistance thru reproduction.

As I mentioned, once you see them in action and working smoothly and seamlessly, its very obvious that is what they are designed to do.

Now more to that question. Many people rationalize its great to keep one by itself. But keeping one individual is more about you and not about the animal. If left on their own, they SEEK mates. That you choose to keep one solitary is based on your ability or understanding. Would you be happy if you were not allowed to have a mate????

ALso in nature many individuals fail to achieve life events, and many individuals lead solitary lifes. But that is not by choice, its because they are most likely not fit to hold a mate or a territory. Or simply there is no mate of suitable territory available. Again, its not by choice.

From my experience, its easy, animals kept solitary are often aggressive problem animals. Individuals raised and accustom to others make great cagemates. The former I can breed in captivity, but I do all the work moving switching etc. The latter do all that themselves. I need to do nothing but feed and dig up eggs. Which sounds better to you?? Cheers

Let's go deeper........

I agree that our captives would be better off if they had a suitable mate and were enabled to reproduce at free will. I also agree that keeping solitary animals is about the keeper, the keeper's desires. I've got a solitary nile and a few solitary snake species. I've also got groups & pairs of various reptiles.

Frank, you said, "...the end result in all behavior is to continue exsistance thru reproduction."

Are you saying that monitors mentally live for that?

Aren't reproduction desires hormonal and not mental? However, from personal experiences (my life) it does sometime seem to be tied to mentality. At least, the hormones can sometime control my mentality.

Let me dig thru my basket of apples & oranges - I know you're gonna love this.

How can something miss something that it's never had? I had a brother and have a hard time imagining growing up without a sibling. Yet, I've talked to many only-child people & most told me it wasn't an issue, never a thought.

How does a solitary monitor know that it's missing a mate if it was separated ever since it hatched? Sure, the hormones eventually kick in but who's to say that they lust for a mate, another monitor, when they've never even seen another monitor?

What's bad about that is when your 8ft crocodile monitor turns it's lust on you. Woohoo!!! "Down boy! Down!!!" (OK, OK. I'm trying to be serious but you know me.)

Can a keeper not satisfy a solitary monitor's mental desires for companionship? Obviously not reproductively, but I've placed reproduction out of the "mental" category & over into the "hormone" category.

I've got my anvil handy.

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

So if keeping them solitary is undesirable because it denies them an extremely important mental aspect of monitor life, then growing them up and keeping adults together in large groups as you do would be ideal... correct? My question would be is there a happy medium between keeping an individual, and keeping a large group of several adults of both sexes for those of us who simply don't have the space for 3 or more adult monitors of a particular species? Or is the answer that if you don't have the room for many monitors, then maybe you shouldn't keep them? Even if you started with a 1.1 babies and grew them up together, with all the difficulty in properly sexing them isn't the likelihood of winding up with two boys or two girls pretty high? Wouldn't that put you back to square one then? The reason I ask all of this is because I would like to get a whitethroat, and I have the space, time, resources etc. to keep one. If for the animal(s) sake he or she would need a mate, then I'd get two, which I also have the space, time, resources etc. to keep. Any more than that and I'd be pushing it on space. The "C" in my case is that I have absolutely no desire to breed these animals unless it is important to their mental and physical well being which you say it is. In other words if I never see an egg pip that's just fine with me. So in my case is it possible to provide everything that is needed within the confines of captivity, or should I just stay away from monitors all together if I lack the space to keep a large group of adults? This is good stuff by the way... thanks for the input.

I did not finish your reply because you added words to my mouth, so I wanted to clear that up first. You say "large" groups. I never said large groups, in fact, I am not sure what that means. Groups normally means a pair or more. I am not sure what your talking about, groups of fifty or twenty, those are large groups.

By far the best performing group is a PAIR. But small groups, trios, or something like 2.3 or so, can indeed work great.

A single individual does not display much behavior at all. Eats and sleeps is about it.

Pairs without question display much more behavior. Without question, groups that include several males and several females, usually display far far far far far more behavior.

Now consider, other then the basic physical aspects of an animal, BEHAVIOR IS EVERYTHING, behavior is the determining factor of what an animal IS. Behavior even determines the physical makeup of an animal.

At this time, I have a group of 2.6 caudolenis. This is the best performing group I have ever had. But these are small lizards and are easy to house(support).

Larger lizards are hard to keep in larger groups, not because of their behavior, but from OUR lack of resources. We simply do not give them space. Or enough food to work as a group. In many cases, the limitations are simply poor management. Most do not understand how to support a group. They reason is, they have never supported a group.

Now I will go back and finish reading your reply. Cheers

I should have clarified, and I suppose the term "large groups" is pretty relative. For instance you said that something like a trio or 2.3 is a nice small group that works well. If you have a great deal of land devoted to monitors (not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm assuming you have a great deal of land devoted to housing monitors) then like you said, 2.3 might be a smal group, and 50 or so might be a large one. In my case I think that 2.3 adult albigs would need most or all of my back yard, so for me that would be a large group. The space I'm confined to would be basically an enclosure built up from a large stock tank, say 10'x5'x6' or so, that's why I'd like to find out if keeping a pair in such an enclosure and providing everything I can both physically and mentally is possible before I go about looking for animals. Thanks again for the input, most forum conversations that I've been a part of don't get this specific.

Please try and understand this and not be offended. As its easy to be offended.

Your asking a question concerning groups, but that is not the actual problem.

All larger monitors NEED large cages, even if they are kept solitary. After all, they are large. An albig gets 6 feet. By comparison, a normal ackie lives in cages 2 to 4 times their total lenght. That would make a 12 to 24 foot cage for an albig. Ackies perform much better in the larger cages. So do albigs.

How many people have been successful with larger monitors that kept them in small cages? More importantly, how many with repeated success?

So basically, your restrictions should have been considered when you were picking what species to work with.

For instance, I work and worked with lots of smaller species, not because I liked them better, instead because I can support them better. Then with better support, I have better success. With better success, I am more motivated. Also success is the best teaching tool.

So the question is really not about keeping them in groups, a much better questions is, do you have the space to keep larger monitors. Cheers

So am I severely underestimating the size enclosure for an adult(s) whitethroat? I was under the impression that using a large (10 ft.) stock tank as a platform to build up from would work nicely. Is that not the case? The nice thing is that I haven't picked a species yet, I just like the whitethroats. Should I look at something smaller?

Dear Frank,
I have a problem that I hope you can help me with. You see, my wife and I bicker from time to time. Should I put her in a cage of her own and let her out only when I want to satisfy my manly desires?

I know she could kill me if she wanted to. There are plenty of places in the house for me to hide. The other day I actually got her on her hands & knees, just a beggin'.

Yepper, that's right. She got on her hands & knees, looked under the bed, and begged me to come out & fight like a man.

Anxiously awaiting your answer.
Signed - Confused in Murphy
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

*** Disclaimer ***

Before anybody goes & gets their draw'rs all in a wad, I assure you that my previous post was not a dig at Frank, Bob, H20lizard, anyone that believes in keeping monitors solitary, anyone that believes keeping monitors in groups, anyone that thinks one or the other should/shouldn't.

It was a joke. Plain & simple. Not meant towards a single soul or multiple souls. Pro or con.

Smile, relax a bit.

Ya'll take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I thought it was hilarious! I laughed loud enough that I had to explain to my wife . . . my arm still stings. . .haha!

Good one!

Yeah, me too. I thought it was almost as funny, as Frank's post was, inspiring!

Susan.

Fr, with all due respect you are 100% correct in keeping monitors in groups, how large of a cage space and how many basking sites dictates stress levels. For all practical purpose I still find my dwarfs entertaining when they are hatchlings and kept individually long enough to get them what I call started. The first year I produced about 23-24 pilbaras from one female who was in her first year of breeding, I kept the hatchlings in groups of 3 as I heard from you and Joe Lewis. To my witness it was counterproductive in their survival so I started to house them individually and had no problems. Do I keep them individually all the time? No, how could I have bonded pairs if that were the case? I use C Charley as you call it, get them up and going and then provide them with a cage space and basking areas where competition and stress is not so obvious. My bet is the safest as I see it, keep them individual until they are big enough to skip a meal or 2 because of stress related issues without killing them, especially with the rock monitors.
Cheers,Bob

So your saying, your keeping them solitary for a week? maybe two. Or a month for that matter? You see this is very important.

As most here think raising them seperately means raise them until they are adult, not a few weeks until they gain some strenght.

I used a slightly different version, I start them in groups and remove any weak individuals for a short time. Normally I place weak individuals in a cage together. At other times, I remove really fast growing individuals and keep them together.

But again, its what you said, using common sense.

Which I feel is far more important then following some regime others use.

Whats important is, what your attempting to accomplish, and not exactly the method your using. In this case, there are many many different methods to accomplish the same thing.

What your actually saying is, its important to keep all individuals strong. So at times, care must be taken to insure that over keeping them in groups. At least temporarily

From your last post, you indicated keeping them together is important in achieving working pairs. In this I agree totally. Its how you get to that point that has many many avenues.

The problem is the questions, they are normally offered in a way that only allows a yes or no type of answer. When if fact, there are many many right ways, and many many wrong ways, just pick a right way. Which means avoid the wrong ways.

ALso because we are dealing with individuals, even wrong ways sometimes works and right ways sometimes fails. Thanks for the great conversation, Cheers

Frank, you are right. What works for some doesnt work for others. Some Dude selling larger glauerti a while back said glauerti eggs were near impossible next to pilbaras as he claims to have hatched them both. Joe Lewis use to hatch glauerti like freakin postage stamps but he claims to have failed with pilbaras but to him this means not making his quota of 750k on them. I had a photo Im trying to find on my puter from a german friend of mine who had one cagemate pilbara actually swallow its sibling. He belives they were both fighting over the same food item and one just kept swallowing until it consumed its cagemate. The name of the photo was little bast---! After seeing that It made me think of ways to prevent those kind of things. And yes I like to make a little jingle on my monitors offspring but I am a builder by trade and do not rely on breeding anything for a means of maintaining a lifestyle. I dont know who set the original price on pilbaras at 3500.00 but I actually brought the prices down to a more affordable monitor with my success. After all I dont think there were a whole lot of folks willing to pay that kind of cash for a hatchling that could perish so easily, with that said they are such gorgeous dwarfs I would be proud to have taken part in building a stable population of them within the USA just as Ackies are today.Now the glauerti are stealing my heart with the nosey old lady next door attitude and personality they have. My female eats with such aggression it is really fun to watch her kick some ass on anything I put in there. Frozen thawed with larger rodents of course.
i have also heard from one breeder that glauerti hatchlings will develop kinks in their tails when kept together due to stress and some timid ones will refuse to come out from hiding and eat due to intimidation from the more dominant siblings. So isolation for a couple of weeks until I see some fecal matter and know they are all eating is in there favor.
Cheers,Bob

Here is a pic of some started pilbaras kept in a group, these are still very small but not small enough to sacrifice their lives over the loss of a meal or 2
Cheers,Bob Sutton
Maxians Collection

I am not picking on you Bob, but I fail to understand how a monitor can fail by missing a meal or two. If your having that occur, your setup is amiss. Or the animals are not healthy to start with. As they can easily survive missing many meals.

The first think that comes to mind is, temps. If they cannot attain cool temps, then they cannot slow down their own metabolism. By not being able to stop energy loss, they will fail from lack of food. If they can lower their energy loss, they can go long periods without food.

Which is Why I always recomend a wide range of temps, Not just the high ones, but also temps that allow them to miss more then a meal or two(your words) Cheers

Frank, temp variation is always available to our adults and hatchlings, problem is you and I both know rock moniros carry very little fat/water reserves and if your talking a glauerti or pilbara hatchling they can go at least a week witout a meal IMO. Our hatchlings are hiding most the time as monitors love to do, keeping them individually [3-4 weeks] allows room for error without competitive cagemates unless you have all day to sit and study your little groups to see whats going on [which I dont]. Saftey first [common sense] is my motto even with 25 dollar bearded dragons. As glauerti/pilbara become more available and others get a chance to work with these magnificent species they may understand where Im coming from. If we were talking some of the gilleni or other dwarfs they appear to carry a little more body mass and can tolerate a bit more human error without perishing. The only thing you said that dumbfounded me [not feeling picked on] was the talk of money? Heck, most people on this forum do not remember the early 90s when your nickname amongst the elite breeders was Franks the bank. You were the original breeder of most if not all the dwarfs and set all of the prices as they have established themselves long ago.Today they have evolved into much less than the original price in the 90s thanks to many combined efforts of other breeders.
Cheers, Thanks for your knowledge over the years, Bob