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Another strange year for breeding these. I had seven perfect eggs which went full term, and produced seven well formed babies. However, the shells were so tough and thick, that they could not get out and most had died in the egg by the time I saw a couple eggs with slits. AS soon as I saw slits and some scratches that did not penetrate the thick shells, I slit all of them open. Only two babies lived, which were both nice little Calicos. This was at a little over nine weeks, which is about the time that last year's clutch started hatching. I plan to slit the eggs at eight weeks, next year. I also have a few other ideas that I may experiment with also. This clutch was incubated on coarse vermiculite at 78* - 80*F throughout most of incubation, with a couple days at the beginning getting up to 82*F.

-Toby Brock
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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Wow!,....that's too bad to hear,....it sounds to me like everything on your part was fine too.

Something I'm going to make more of a point on checking in the future is,..if I have otherwise normal looking fully developed neonates that are dead in the egg, it would be interesting to see if their "egg-tooth" is present or not. I would imagine this is overlooked by many. Not that anything can be DONE about it, but nonetheless interesting. I seriously doubt they would fall off on their own in the moist environment within the egg within a 24 hour period as they normally would out in the open air.

A couple years ago, I had some Honduran embryos that were all fully developed but dead, and all of their skin was connected in all their body loops within the egg,...sort of like "paper dolls" are connected. it was pretty bizarre and eerie looking!

Hopefully, you have some better luck doing the "eight week" cutting thing you mentioned........nice calico's too by the way!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

That sucks Toby. I've had the same problem with a couple of beauty snake clutches over the years and never knew for sure what the problem was.
I'm glad you did get a couple of nice calicos out of the clutch at least.
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Randy Whittington

Bummer...still, you got a couple of nice snakes out of it!
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Diego

SWCHR

Doug, I have heard some interesting ideas/theories on what might have gone awry, but that is a new one. Now I wish I had looked for the egg teeth on those dead-in-egg babies. My thought is that they had their egg teeth still at least at the time that they were trying to cut through the egg shells, as there were numerous scratches on the insides, which although they did not penetrate (except maybe two, and one of these still died), were still visible from the outside. Yep, I think early egg slicing is the way to go, as long as they continue to make such thick shelled eggs.

Randy, I recently heard of some others having very similar trouble with eggs of other subspecies of taeniurus, with one clutch where I believe only one baby of eleven survived. All others died in the egg.

Diego, yes it is nice that they were Calicos, at least.

-Toby

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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby,....

Yes, I think that would probably be a smart move too!

What a rough way to go for the poor little guys!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Another strange year for breeding these. I had seven perfect eggs which went full term, and produced seven well formed babies. However, the shells were so tough and thick, that they could not get out and most had died in the egg by the time I saw a couple eggs with slits. AS soon as I saw slits and some scratches that did not penetrate the thick shells, I slit all of them open. Only two babies lived, which were both nice little Calicos. This was at a little over nine weeks, which is about the time that last year's clutch started hatching. I plan to slit the eggs at eight weeks, next year. I also have a few other ideas that I may experiment with also. This clutch was incubated on coarse vermiculite at 78* - 80*F throughout most of incubation, with a couple days at the beginning getting up to 82*F.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-Toby Brock
>>-----
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby, what were the ones that died? Were they all hets for calico?

You were at what, about 65 days? Seems like a little short of an incubation period. What was it last year and how did they do? Maybe if the period was a little longer the eggs would soften up more near the end. I'm no expert, but just thinking, they can't do this in the wild or the species would die out. Somehow, I believe the eggs must soften up for the babies to be able to cut their way out.

Moellendorffi has this problem too, I believe. Maybe there's a moellendorffi breeder that has a knack for hatching these.

Seems like I remember moellendorffi having late clutches, incubation for up to almost 90 days, and hatching in Sept/Oct, or so. The snakes lived in caves under very cool conditions and maybe the eggs were incubated under somewhat cool conditions. I think it needs some experimentation. I wonder how the other taeniurus breeders are doing it?

PS: Congrats on the two calicos...

Cheers...Terry

>>Toby, what were the ones that died? Were they all hets for calico?
>>
>>You were at what, about 65 days? Seems like a little short of an incubation period. What was it last year and how did they do? Maybe if the period was a little longer the eggs would soften up more near the end. I'm no expert, but just thinking, they can't do this in the wild or the species would die out. Somehow, I believe the eggs must soften up for the babies to be able to cut their way out.
>>
>>Moellendorffi has this problem too, I believe. Maybe there's a moellendorffi breeder that has a knack for hatching these.
>>
>>Seems like I remember moellendorffi having late clutches, incubation for up to almost 90 days, and hatching in Sept/Oct, or so. The snakes lived in caves under very cool conditions and maybe the eggs were incubated under somewhat cool conditions. I think it needs some experimentation. I wonder how the other taeniurus breeders are doing it?
>>
>>PS: Congrats on the two calicos...
>>
>>Cheers...Terry

Terry,

The ones that died in their eggs were four hets and one calico.

I disagree, I'm afraid - this was a full-term clutch. Yes, about 64 - 65 days. The babies were all full term, and all except one had used up their yolks. They were ready to come out, as evidenced by the numerous scratches on the insides of the eggs. Cutting them open would not have killed them, as eggs even with a quite a long time left will still live and develop after being slit open, and these were dead at the time I cut them open. They were incubated between 78* - 82*F, so about the right time for hatching, according to data compiled for the subspecies, at The Ratsnake Foundation. I originally had no intention of cutting the eggs, this year, until I saw that the babies were apparently having difficulties getting out of the eggs. I loosely wrapped moist paper towels around the eggs at around seven weeks, trying to get the eggs softened up, so that the babies would be able to penetrate the shells.

Last year, the eggs were incubated at about 82*F, and the babies started hatching at about 63 days. I helped one that would have died, and one went full term, was well formed and died in egg. I did not cut this one open for at least a few days after the others had hatched. This was the clutch that also had two badly deformed babies.

My idea is that egg composition may be somewhat different under captive conditions compared to those in the wild. One theory I have heard is maybe too rich a diet in captivity might make the eggs overcalcified.

-Toby
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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

>>The ones that died in their eggs were four hets and one calico.
>>
>>I disagree, I'm afraid - this was a full-term clutch. Yes, about 64 - 65 days. The babies were all full term, and all except one had used up their yolks. They were ready to come out, as evidenced by the numerous scratches on the insides of the eggs. Cutting them open would not have killed them, as eggs even with a quite a long time left will still live and develop after being slit open, and these were dead at the time I cut them open. They were incubated between 78* - 82*F, so about the right time for hatching, according to data compiled for the subspecies, at The Ratsnake Foundation. I originally had no intention of cutting the eggs, this year, until I saw that the babies were apparently having difficulties getting out of the eggs. I loosely wrapped moist paper towels around the eggs at around seven weeks, trying to get the eggs softened up, so that the babies would be able to penetrate the shells.
>>
>>Last year, the eggs were incubated at about 82*F, and the babies started hatching at about 63 days. I helped one that would have died, and one went full term, was well formed and died in egg. I did not cut this one open for at least a few days after the others had hatched. This was the clutch that also had two badly deformed babies.
>>
>>My idea is that egg composition may be somewhat different under captive conditions compared to those in the wild. One theory I have heard is maybe too rich a diet in captivity might make the eggs overcalcified.
>>
>>-Toby
>>-----
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby, sorry, I didn't word my question well.

I didn't want to say the babies didn't go full term. I meant to say maybe the eggs needed a longer incubation to soften up. Usually if the incubation is under cooler conditions it takes longer for the babies to mature. I may be way off on this, but just a thought for the future attempts at these tough eggs. We should ask other taeni breeders how they do their incubations. I know we did that at the Ratsnake Foundation, but I mean here at KS.com. I know when I worked with the same subspecies I had some trouble with tough eggs too. I think I cut them open as soon as I saw any activity on the part of the babies. I doubt the eggs were over calcified. These eggs tend to be tough anyway. Just my opinion. I believe 78-82*F. normally are good temps for colubrid eggs, but maybe 82* is too high for these tough Orthriophis eggs. Maybe 76-80*F. incubation would help. Wonder if anyone has tried this, yet?

TC

>>Toby, sorry, I didn't word my question well.
>>
>>I didn't want to say the babies didn't go full term. I meant to say maybe the eggs needed a longer incubation to soften up. Usually if the incubation is under cooler conditions it takes longer for the babies to mature. I may be way off on this, but just a thought for the future attempts at these tough eggs. We should ask other taeni breeders how they do their incubations. I know we did that at the Ratsnake Foundation, but I mean here at KS.com. I know when I worked with the same subspecies I had some trouble with tough eggs too. I think I cut them open as soon as I saw any activity on the part of the babies. I doubt the eggs were over calcified. These eggs tend to be tough anyway. Just my opinion. I believe 78-82*F. normally are good temps for colubrid eggs, but maybe 82* is too high for these tough Orthriophis eggs. Maybe 76-80*F. incubation would help. Wonder if anyone has tried this, yet?
>>
>>TC

No worries, Terry - so easy to misconstrue meanings in online forums. I was not upset either, just explaining why I thought the clutch was fine except for the tough eggshells. Maybe you have a point about cooler, longer incubation working better for these. I said that I kept these at 78 - 82*F this year, but for the majority of incubation, they were at 78 - 80*F, and usually about 79*F when I would check on them. The temp got up to 82*F a few times at the beginning of incubation. I wonder if 80 - 82*F is too hot for these eggs, and may have been part of the cause for last year's deformities. I have plans to build my own incubator for next year's eggs, and may try even cooler temps, as you say, but I could even keep them at room temps if I wanted to keep them at around 76*F. I also wonder if these eggs might need more humidity than the average colubrid eggs, and maybe giving them extra moisture near the end of their term was too late - maybe they need to be extra moist from the beginning. Extra high humidity is a big focus for my incubator plans, and I hope to be able to keep the ambient humidity at or close to 100%. The data I referred to (at Ratsnake Foundation) was compiled using data from many clutches of taeniurus, using different temps, and I will have to look at it again, but I think that there was high mortality both at the higher and lower extremes of temperature.

I certainly agree that this cannot possibly be as much of a problem, in the wild, as it seems to be in captivity. I may try to breed my '07 male (if I can find a healthy, cbb female to pair him with) next year, and will probably try the old adults again. Maybe I will try a clutch in the incubator at 77 - 78*F, and one at room temps, which would mostly be 76* - 78*F, but probably down to 74*F on some nights.

-Toby
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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

>>No worries, Terry - so easy to misconstrue meanings in online forums. I was not upset either, just explaining why I thought the clutch was fine except for the tough eggshells. Maybe you have a point about cooler, longer incubation working better for these. I said that I kept these at 78 - 82*F this year, but for the majority of incubation, they were at 78 - 80*F, and usually about 79*F when I would check on them. The temp got up to 82*F a few times at the beginning of incubation. I wonder if 80 - 82*F is too hot for these eggs, and may have been part of the cause for last year's deformities. I have plans to build my own incubator for next year's eggs, and may try even cooler temps, as you say, but I could even keep them at room temps if I wanted to keep them at around 76*F. I also wonder if these eggs might need more humidity than the average colubrid eggs, and maybe giving them extra moisture near the end of their term was too late - maybe they need to be extra moist from the beginning. Extra high humidity is a big focus for my incubator plans, and I hope to be able to keep the ambient humidity at or close to 100%. The data I referred to (at Ratsnake Foundation) was compiled using data from many clutches of taeniurus, using different temps, and I will have to look at it again, but I think that there was high mortality both at the higher and lower extremes of temperature.
>>
>>I certainly agree that this cannot possibly be as much of a problem, in the wild, as it seems to be in captivity. I may try to breed my '07 male (if I can find a healthy, cbb female to pair him with) next year, and will probably try the old adults again. Maybe I will try a clutch in the incubator at 77 - 78*F, and one at room temps, which would mostly be 76* - 78*F, but probably down to 74*F on some nights.
>>
>>-Toby
>>-----
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Toby, I know this is somewhat off topic, but I incubated my bimac eggs this year on the back porch with "no" incubator. The temps reached a high of 82*F, but got much lower nights, etc, down to about 76*F. I'm thinking I won't ever have to use an incubator again...LOL!

Best of luck with your taenis, and please keep us posted on how that process is working..

Regards...TC

>>Toby, I know this is somewhat off topic, but I incubated my bimac eggs this year on the back porch with "no" incubator. The temps reached a high of 82*F, but got much lower nights, etc, down to about 76*F. I'm thinking I won't ever have to use an incubator again...LOL!
>>
>>Best of luck with your taenis, and please keep us posted on how that process is working..
>>
>>Regards...TC

Well Terry, if I get two clutches of taeni eggs, next year, I will definately incubate one clutch at room temps (74 - 78*F). If I put any eggs on my back porch (or front porch), during the summer, they would be well done in a matter of a few minutes! LOL

-Toby
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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

>>>>Toby, I know this is somewhat off topic, but I incubated my bimac eggs this year on the back porch with "no" incubator. The temps reached a high of 82*F, but got much lower nights, etc, down to about 76*F. I'm thinking I won't ever have to use an incubator again...LOL!
>>>>
>>>>Best of luck with your taenis, and please keep us posted on how that process is working..
>>>>
>>>>Regards...TC
>>
>>Well Terry, if I get two clutches of taeni eggs, next year, I will definately incubate one clutch at room temps (74 - 78*F). If I put any eggs on my back porch (or front porch), during the summer, they would be well done in a matter of a few minutes! LOL
>>
>>-Toby
>>-----
>>Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

That would be great if you got two clutches. You've got me wanting to try this again, but I think I'd rather try the moellendorffi.

You could try one clutch at room temp and the other in your incubator. I'd set a date for the incubator to slightly slit one egg to see what the baby would do. If it came out I'd then slit all the eggs. Kinda prempting them.

Your porches are outside. If you ever make it to AZ you'll see that our back porch is actually an "Arizona Room," an enclosed room leading to the outdoors, but it doesn't get heat in winter or air in summer. It is insulated, however, and tops out at about 82*F. in summer and stays about 55*F. in winter. Needless to say I really like the temps.

Best Regards...Terry

>>That would be great if you got two clutches. You've got me wanting to try this again, but I think I'd rather try the moellendorffi.

Cool, I hope you do get back into moellendorffi. Interesting looking snakes. Did you ever breed them when you kept them before?

>>You could try one clutch at room temp and the other in your incubator. I'd set a date for the incubator to slightly slit one egg to see what the baby would do. If it came out I'd then slit all the eggs. Kinda prempting them.

That is my plan, except that I have plans to build my own incubator to replace the old Hovabator. The new incubator will be a cross of your aquarium incubator and Damon Salceies' Chondro incubator, and will (hopefully) maintain a more stable temperature and a high ambient humidity. I plan to keep the incubated eggs at about 78*F, and slit at least one egg at about eight weeks. If it still has some developing to do, this should not hurt it. I have not accidentally cut a baby yet. The other clutch, if there is one, will be kept at room temps, which will range from 74* - 78*F. The second clutch is dependent on my finding a healthy, breedable female to pair up with my '07 male calico. I could put him with the het/calico '07 female, but I don't really want to use her, and I also think it will be too early for her next year.

>>Your porches are outside. If you ever make it to AZ you'll see that our back porch is actually an "Arizona Room," an enclosed room leading to the outdoors, but it doesn't get heat in winter or air in summer. It is insulated, however, and tops out at about 82*F. in summer and stays about 55*F. in winter. Needless to say I really like the temps.
>>
>>Best Regards...Terry

Sounds great for you, Terry! Sounds like a good spot for brumation as well. I actually may make it to AZ next year, but I can't say for sure yet.

-Toby
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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

>>Cool, I hope you do get back into moellendorffi. Interesting looking snakes. Did you ever breed them when you kept them before?
>>

Nope, raised two different pairs, but never bred them. I understand they have the same tough type of eggs as taeniurus.

These guys get pretty big which is the main reason I stopped working with them, but I have more time now. Maybe I'll give it another try someday. Right now I have my hands full of emoryi, triaspis, and kings. Hope to also get flavirufus, subocularis, rosaliae, and maybe some Mexican pits.

>>Sounds great for you, Terry! Sounds like a good spot for brumation as well. I actually may make it to AZ next year, but I can't say for sure yet.
>>
>>-Toby

Keep me posted, Toby. Would be great to meet up...

Terry