Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i was talking to a breeder-dealer about hypo deppei deppei. i was interested in getting a positive het to pair with my hypo male. he told me just because it is a positive het (one parent hypo one parent regular) doesn't mean that the offspring if matched with a hypo would necessarily produce any hypos.
that doesn't seem right to me. if not, then what would ensure having some hypo and some hets? i'm a little foggy here that is why i'm asking you people with far more knowledge on the subject. thanks...
jonathan

For arguments sake lets say you do breed your hypo to a het hypo and get 4 eggs.

Statistically you should get two hypos and 2 het hypos.

But you could get any combination including all het's and all hypos.

A visual hypo parent does ensure at the very least that you will get het hypos, it doesn't not guarantee you will get hypos.

A het to het breeding involves POS het hypos being created.

Statistically the odds are in your favor to get both hypos and het's because you are using a visual hypo and a het hypo.

I would be careful of anyone using the line he gave you as a red flag for a possible snake that is not carrying the hypo gene or possibly an overly cautious seller who wants you to know the possible results you could get with that breeding.

Could be either the way...but you did mention you want a guarantee you will get both.

So the buyer told you the possibilities/outcomes and he is selling bonafide het hypos with no guarantee that they will produce hypos when bred to your visual hypo male.

This is because he can NOT guarantee that, you could get any combination from that breeding like I said earlier in my response to your post.
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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I would have to agree with the above post in that with regards to genetics and simple recessive genes as this one is you could get unlucky enough to have an entire clutch of non-visual (heterozygouz) hypo-melanistic hatchlings however even with lets say a small clutch of 8-12(these guys are known for smallish eggs and large clutches of 15-25) the odds are against that happening. I have been breeding these guys since the gene first showed up in my collection with an old legally obtained w/c male and his daughter, (It took me a year or two to isolate the origins of the trait) . It is simple recessive and seems to also involve some degree of pattern abnormality. Out of the 40 or so that I hatched out this year there is a wide range of color, degree of hypo-melanism, and pattern aberancy. Go check them out at John S's table in daytona in a couple of weeks.

If you breed your male to a het female you will most likely get some visually hypo offspring. Why not get a hypo female and produce an entire clutch of hypos!

here is an image of a pair of F2's from the original founder group. Note the dramatic variation even among siblings.........typical deppei

Here is the analogy I always use to explain homo to het breedings. Each egg has a 50/50 chance of being hypo or being het, exactly the same as heads or tails when a coin is flipped. If you flip a coin ten times the result will probably be even, or almost. Could you flip a coin and have it come up heads ten times in a row? That would be unlikely, unusual, improbable, but not impossible.
Or think of what Tracey Barker said to someone who bred an albino male ball to a het female and didn't get any albinos. He was suggesting the female wasn't a het. She said it was het, guaranteed, no ifs, ands, or buts. Yes, he only got visual normals. What if it had gone the opposite way and he only got albinos? The odds of it happening are the same. Would he be saying the female wasn't just a het, it is too improbable to get all albinos?
Okay, I'm running on and on, you probably understood without my post. Andy

With such a large egg yield it would be highly unlikely he would miss out getting hypos, if the snake laid a large clutch as is common with this species, he should indeed get more then a couple, more like a few hypos. My scenario and your ball python scenario involve small numbers of eggs where such a poor outcome could actually happen.

But if the snake laid a normal sized clutch that is common for this particular species, such a poor outcome is HIGHLY unlikely.
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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I was only using 4 eggs as a scenario, but admittedly (these guys are known for smallish eggs and large clutches of 15-25) I did not know they laid such large clutches. With that type of egg yield I would be shocked for him not to get hypos, very shocked.

Even a het to het breeding should throw more then a couple hypos with such a large egg yield.

As you stated he should just buy a hypo, but he may like the "reg" ones that have the potential to throw hypos, that does make sense to me as even "reg" deppei are quite beautiful.

>>I would have to agree with the above post in that with regards to genetics and simple recessive genes as this one is you could get unlucky enough to have an entire clutch of non-visual (heterozygouz) hypo-melanistic hatchlings however even with lets say a small clutch of 8-12 the odds are against that happening. I have been breeding these guys since the gene first showed up in my collection with an old legally obtained w/c male and his daughter, (It took me a year or two to isolate the origins of the trait) . It is simple recessive and seems to also involve some degree of pattern abnormality. Out of the 40 or so that I hatched out this year there is a wide range of color, degree of hypo-melanism, and pattern aberancy. Go check them out at John S's table in daytona in a couple of weeks.
>>
>>If you breed your male to a het female you will most likely get some visually hypo offspring. Why not get a hypo female and produce an entire clutch of hypos!
>>
>>here is an image of a pair of F2's from the original founder group. Note the dramatic variation even among siblings.........typical deppei
>>

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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

thanks for the feedback everyone. i believe i have the idea now. it is most likely that if i matched my hypo with a positive het that i would get some hypo and some het offspring. personally i would like to have some of each. i think the hypo and regular are both beautifull.
now i just need to find a female
thanks again for the clarity...

jonathan

absolutely, I agree that the wild type animals are quite beautiful and a mixed clutch would offer you the best of both worlds. good luck and let us know what becomes of your project.

PS. I actually had a female deppei lay 31 eggs a few years ago.........darned huge clutch for a Pituophis! Can you image the horror of breeding a het to a visual and having none of the 31 come out hypo.......the breeder would have some serious explaining to do. Last year I was sexing a clutch of 11 black pine hatchlings, male, male, male, male, male, "what's going on here", male, male, male, male, male, female! a near impossibility but it happens!

It's been a long time since college math but,IIRC, the probability of a 15 egg 50% chance clutch to be all normal or all hypo would be 1/2 to the 15th power or 1/32768.
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

yeah, what Lloyd said! it has been way to long since I took those classes......