Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Got a question for y'all and I apologize ahead of time if it's been covered previously. How exactly do breeding loans normally work? I've got more normal females that will be ready to go than I do different morph males. So instead of breeding all the same morphs, I was thinking of maybe partnering with some other local folks to boost variety. My question is how these arrangements normally work. If I borrow a male from someone, what compensation should I expect to give in return? A lot of times when people do this with dogs, the stud's owner get's pick of the litter or the price of one offspring. Obviously, there is more variation when breeding morphs. Thanks in advance.

I run a rescue but I also have a large collection of "designer" morphs of various species.
I had a guy fostering for me for the rescue- he bred beardies, and corn snakes.
He was a great foster home- he was disabled and unable to work out of the home but had TONS of time for lizards and snakes.

He fostered close to 40 animals in 3 years.

He was looking for more female beardies for his breeding 'stuff' -- We agreed from the beginning that the females thru the rescue wouldn't be adopted to him to become breeders, or adopted out to other breeders- that was fine.
I had a large citrus dragon that we used in our educational program because she wasn't "just a normal" -- she was awsome. He asked one day if I wanted to raise some more $ for the rescue-- I said of course! He took my female beardie to his house, she became gravid, and layed 12 eggs. We agreed that we would split the babies 50/50. My female was more valuable, he did the work-- I tried to take her home the day after she layed- he said he would keep her a few weeks and get her fattened up real good...

He got a workers comp settlement check and called me up and said he wanted to "buy the female he was fostering" .... ?
I said that I had an application pending on her and it was approved, I was going to call the family that day-- he said "I'm interested in buying and thats what i'm doing"

I told him that I couldn't let him adopt the female b/c she was adopted. I told him that I couldn't do that. I didn't hear from him for 4 days. Then I had $100 in my mail box with a note that says "I am keeping the female she is gravid" --- WTF?!

I called him and said I needed to come get the other fostered animals (2 male beardies, a red tail boa, and 2 corn snakes), as well as the female citrus and the babies from her (that had just hatched a week ago).

I had also spent a good amount of my tax return to buy him some cages (nice cages like animal plastics or vison-- I know what i bought but don't want to violate rules, or give too many details) I spent several hundred on the cages. The cages hadn't shipped yet- the day I found teh $100- I called the cage company and asked if any changes had been made. He had changed the shipping address TO HIS HOUSE INSTEAD OF MINE!!! I said that I was the card holder that paid for the cages and they were to be shipped to my house.
A week later I got a phone call from him asking where "his" cages were. I said that they hadn't been shipped yet but they should get to my house any day.
He said that he had taken care of all these animals and done all the work with the citrus so him keeping the animals and MY cages was his "compensation".... I paid for all food, provided cages (that i didn't get back) --

20 minutes after I got that phone call- teh cage company called me and said that the shipping address had been changed again and I was "banned" from the account. I had to take digital photo's of my bank card and email to them- to prove that I was indeed the card holder. We canceled the order at that time b/c I was afraid he would just come get the cages off my porch anyway...

He then threatened to shoot me if I came on his property, and called the police on me- trying to get other animals from my house... he continues to call animal control- saying I have illegal species-- I now know all the officers and they showed up last week- asked how it was going, walked thru my place and told me to have a nice day... They're tired of it, I'm tired of it, but they have to check....

If you do a breeding loan-- BE SMARTER THAN ME!!! DO NOT TRUST YOUR FRIENDS. As horrible as that sounds- he was a friend- after fostering for 3 years, we developed a friendship, had BBQ's together, my kids played over there, we went to reptile shows together... we were friends... I thought he was helping me, and doing us a favor--- he was screwing me over and he did screw us.

You need to write up an agreement and have it notarized at kinkos, or at a bank....

What our verbal agreement was is that: I KEPT MY FEMALE CITRUS, I got 1/2 the babies- if there was an odd #, I agreed for him to keep it. My female was higher "value" than his male, but he was doing the "work"-- which sounds like it would be the same in your case.

I guess I'm just saying you need to be careful-- I learned my lesson--- and then some... I no longer have foster homes, from fear of loosing more animals. I have no doubt that the animals he has are being cared for wonderfully but thats not the point. I decided that if I wanted to breed my personal animals, it would be better, safer, and "more profitable" if I didn't have to share with someone else...

Just please, PLEASE be careful!
What area do you live in? If you're here near me- I can give you a list of ppl. that are into reptiles that you need to AVOID! lol...

Good luck...

~Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Beth's case is an example of how things can go horribly wrong. However, don't be completely put off of the idea from her experiences alone. Breeding loans can work and do work if you make it a point to use your time and energy covering all of the "maybes" and "what-ifs" ahead of time.

This means if and when you find someone else interested in entering into a breeding loan with you, be sure that you both sit down and detail EVERY ASPECT of the transaction ahead of time.

By doing this you will both find out what kind of expectations the other has and may find out that you don't work together as well as you had initially hoped.

Some points to consider ahead of time include (but are not limited to):
-What is the value of the sire(s) and dam(s) that will be included in the deal?
-What is the approximate value of any and all possible offspring?
-Where will the animals stay during the loan?
-Where will the hatchlings be housed?
-Who will pay for any extra supplies, incubators, substrates, housing, etc. that will be used and/or purchased during the loan?
-Who keeps the purchased supplies? (example: If a hatchling rack is purchased which person keeps it after the loan is completed?)
-How are the hatchlings split?
-If the hatchlings are to be sold what will each person's compensation be (percentage wise)?
-Who pays for food for both the hatchlings and the adults?
-Who pays for advertising and shipping costs?
-If the animals are to be sold, what happens if one person decides they would like to hold back an animal or two? (And conversely if they are to be held back what happens if someone decides they would rather sell the hatchlings?)
-Possible vet bills and/or death
-What if the pairing doesn't produce any offspring? Is one person still compensated for the food and supplies that were purchased?

This is just the beginning and a deal can take a while to iron out. However, if you take the time to go over as many details as possible beforehand you will run into far fewer problems down the road since both parties will know exactly what is expected of them. Many of the questions I posed above can be a 50/50 split but some of them may require a little more "fairness" as far as compensation goes.

Breeding loans can work - the proof of this is that you've actually HEARD of them. If they didn't work, no one would bother mentioning them. They can be a pain in the rear to set up and you may decide at a later point that you'd rather back out (set up an "escape clause for both people, but reserve it for emergencies only) but if you both people hold up to their (written) agreements you will both walk away with a little more experience, another good reference, a better idea of what you'd like to do differently in the future (hopefully, nothing) and finally an expanded collection, wallet or both.

Good luck and if you have specific questions feel free to email me.

Be careful but breeding loans have worked out for me and here are three of the great babies I have to show for them.

Phantoms? Nice.

Here is the mom of those three. I found her in a pet store 7 years ago. I had hoped she might be a phantom so tried to arrange a breeding loan to a known white snake male but it took her a long time to decide to produce eggs. In 2007 she finally produced a clutch on a loan to Dan Garcia where about half the babies looked like her including the middle one in the picture in my above post. Dan's male was adherent and unproven too so not sure if he also contributed to the look which varied a bit between the non normals.

The other two are from an 2008 breeding loan of the same pet store female to Marshall Van Thorre using one of his Mojaves. The one on the left is a female that I believe is a Mojave Garcia. I'm not a very good photographer but in addition to the wide distance between light alien heads she has the same dark rich brown sides as the 07. The male on the right is likely just a Mojave as he doesn't have the same color but I'm holding out a little hope that his high white sides are a little Garcia peaking out as otherwise I don't have a male to breed back to mom to find out what the homozygous Garcia looks like.

I would have expected a PhantomMojave to be a white snake but suppose it will be a while yet before someone is working with both lines to put that to the test. Since the apparent Mojave Garcia isn't white I'm thinking Garcia probably isn't even in the white snake complex like I hoped.

Others have pointed out that the Garcia resembles chocolate and I have to agree but I don't think the belly is right. So, for now it's a project to figure out with my highest priority to get a male to breed back to mom and go for the homozygous.

Darn,knew I should have previewed. That's one of the 07 babies. Here is the mom.

Oh yeah, I remember her. Doesn't get much more Phantomish than that. Good luck with them.

breed your snakes to your snakes........

let them breed their own too

.......you'll have no trouble that way...

friends aren't friends when it comes to $$$$$$$$
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this is how i always did breeding loans in the 10 yrs that i produced coastal carpets;
1-the owner of the female would assume responsibility for the male,as female carpets were,in my experience,more likely to breed in their own enclosures.
2-the male would stay until eggs were laid,at which point he would go home.
3-as soon as all eggs hatched,both parties would get together,put all hatchlings in a big tub,and take turns picking,splitting the litter as evenly as possible. 4-you were responsible for getting your hatchlings to eat on your own,and vice versa.
the next season,you do it all over again.i was on both ends many times,and always came away pretty happy.we always set it up so that the male's owner would contribute to the feeding bills,too.just my opinion,but it always worked for me!
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1.1 cb spotted turtles (parker(f),stinky(m))
0.0.1 cb baby red cheek mud (pickles)
0.0.1 cb baby chiapas musk (chomper)
0.0.1 cb ally snapper (gamera)
1.0 cb homo sapien(kaelan,5)

"my name is inigo montoya...you killed my father.prepare to die."

My advice to you is to just buy another morph male or two. With prices the way they are now breeding loans make no sense unless it is a high dollar morph or combo.
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John Vandegrift