Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It was W/C by me. I sold this one but they are quit common where it was found.

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B

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>>It was W/C by me. I sold this one but they are quit common where it was found.
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>>B

looks like a Texas rat to me
here's an idea.....why don't you tell us where it was caught.
Forgo all the guessing
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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This isn't the first one I have caught either. In a small portion of N. Escambia (farm land). I wouldn't think a grey and black intergrade would look like this.
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B

>>This isn't the first one I have caught either. In a small portion of N. Escambia (farm land). I wouldn't think a grey and black intergrade would look like this.
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>>B

well, I'm not sure
but from it's looks and your location I would have to agree
grey/black intergrade.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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I saw many rat Snakes with that coloring around Montgomery AL. Some folks declared them "Alabama Gray Rats" (go figure). Others called them Black Rats. Since I did see very gray Rat Snakes but never any dark Black ones, I just decided they were Black Rats. I'm really not sure it makes much difference. It's a nice snake.

Here is an example pic of one of several Rat Snakes I caught around Montgomery. If I hadn't found 5 like this, I could have bought the inevitable "escaped pet" explanation. Montgomery is also in the "Grey-Only" range on the maps.

This one was far more brown than Grey or Black.

and one of the obviously true Greys. I post this just to point out the wide variety of phenotypes for an area that range maps claim have only Grey Rats.

Very nice animals and you're right, Mark .... Very diverse.
Some listed as "White Oak" from Escambia County are very light, but with a twist of chocolate.
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for more diversity:
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Apalachicola Gray
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Another Apalachicola Gray

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. Because some folks are sensitive to death and distruction I give this warning:
Below are two "Road Kills"
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DOR West TN Gray
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Just 20 miles east they start darkening
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Regards, Bill McGighan

NOW that *IS* a Gulf Hammock Rat there. You obviously have had a roaming Yellow Rat Romeo sometime in the past in your area. That explains why one looked a little like a Keys Variant & some look like Texas rats.

Matthew

I'd buy that it meets the descriptor for a Gulf Hammock. I'm not sure how a yellow would help explain the Texas look in a Grey-only area but we are thinking the same way. There is a lot more variety than the range maps can explain.

Yes,....I agree,...If "Mother Nature" drew up the range maps, they would surely look different!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug,

LOL Snakes DON'T read Field Guides!

Matthew

Yes,...that was the point!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Mark,

That's a positive there! The variety in Corns in Florida's West Coast alone boggle the mind. Why should P. obseleta be any different? Still, you got to wonder at all the factors, don't you?

Matthew

Matthew, For what its worth…
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Although many folks in the pet trade sell stripped and blotched Rat Snakes as “Gulf Hammock Rat Snakes”, the authentic animal was once considered a subspecies was described by Archie Carr in the mid 1940’s. Ross Allen helped in location and, though they did have “stripes and blotches”, they had a distinctive look.
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Of course, as you know, they are NOT considered a separate subspecies.
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Here’s a Greenish Rat Snake (Yellow/Black integrade) from SC on a stump in March.
It has stripes and blotches.
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A little Closer.
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A Little closer yet.
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Deckert’s (no longer a subspecies either) from the upper Florida Keys are stripped and blotched.
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The parents of these Gulf Hammocks RSs were collected just a few hundred yards from where the described animals were from.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Bill,

Thanks! Though I don't think the greenish Intergrade looked that much alike! Frankly 2/3's of the Texas rats I've seen also have striping. I assume its a common recessive gene in the American Ratsnake ( P. obseleta )..
Yeah, Deckart's is considerd a variant population. Which I heard a few were trying to line breed.
That one animal that Mark (?) photographed definitely had Yellow rat somewhere in its background though!
The yellow rat I kept as a pet in Florida in my first collection showed faint blotches as well..

Sincerely,
Matthew

Mark,

I live about 25 miles south of Dallas, Tx. & I think I saw THAT snake a few weeks ago! Sure looks like a Texas Rat. LOL

Matthew
Like I said, that's Florida & its snakes for you

Sure does. I was really shocked by the first one but then I found others - some more than 15 miles from the first one. Neither Texas or Black Rats are supposed to be anywhere near Montgomery but that sure doesn't look like a Grey.

Well on that,

Back in early July I came across a huge Texas rat that had a head & neck that was PURE Black Ratsnake. Not until midbody did it assume a darkish Texas pattern. That head could have been on any obseleta I saw in Maryland in my childhood!

Matthew'

Have you considered the possibility of accidental human interference with the population? There's an area not far from my house that's geographically isolated and seems to have a population of black ratsnakes living there, even though they are not native to this area. There are, however, railroad tracks that run through the spot in question that park for extended periods of time... carrying grain that's sometimes swarming with rats.

Could something like that be happening with the ratsnakes in your area? Are you close to any railroad tracks where grain cars are frequently parked? What about ports?

I have dozens of Mediterranean Geckos outside my windows at night, and last I checked, Lousiana was not on the Mediterranean.

Due to shipping, animals often end up where they don't belong.

Just a thought.
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1.0.0 Great Plains Ratsnake
1.0.0 Corn, Lavender Aztec het for Amel
0.1.0 Black Ratsnake
0.0.1 Texas Rat (tame)
1.0.0 Broad Banded Water Snake, Hypo
1.0.0 Black Bassador Retriever
2.1.0 Godchildren, 1 Evil, 2 possible hets

Although two of them were found close enough to be related, the others were separated by several miles - two far for me to believe they had the same lineage. That doesn't mean there isn't the possibility of multiple instances of human interference but I'm not a big fan of explaining things that way. I've seen many pics of similar looking animals from as far north as Birmingham. I've seen several of them posted on here in the past and they generated a similar discussion about intergrades, escaped pets, mutations, etc.
BTW, I'm actually in Tucson these days looking at loads of different wild critters. My days with wild Rat Snakes are over.

gray x yellow intergrade????

After doing some very extensive range distribution research from several Ratsnake locality maps, the snake in question seems to be in strictly Gray(spiloides) territory, with the Texas Rat being the closest well to the west of the Panhandle tip. It has been shown that lindheimeri has crossed east of the Mississippi River in the delta areas.

It does seem to me that it has more linheimeri influnce than obsoletus, with obsoletus being well to the northeast of that in central Alabama where they could look very similar to this as well.

In any case, I think it has a very interesting appearance!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug,

I agree... Blacks don't range this far south, way too far for yellow's but MS is still a distance from Escambia. This should be completely spiloides country.

I'll be doing more collecting from this area this fall and spring. It has turned up a uniqe baby last year (my digi camera does not take good close ups). Normal in appearance greys come from this smae area.
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B

Good deal!,.....it will be interesting to see what natural phenotypes you capture there!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have something that looks IDENTICAL to that. She was hatched last year from a WC pair of Black Rats from North Louisiana. She looked like a typical black rat when I got her, then she started turning brown as she grew. She's about 38" now, peanut butter background with darker splotches that have some gray in the center. Doesn't look like a texas rat and sure doesn't look like a normal black either.
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The Reticulated Rattler

1.0.0 Great Plains Ratsnake
1.0.0 Corn, Lavender Aztec het for Amel
0.1.0 Black Ratsnake
0.0.1 Texas Rat (tame)
1.0.0 Broad Banded Water Snake, Hypo
1.0.0 Black Bassador Retriever
2.1.0 Godchildren, 1 Evil, 2 possible hets

Yes, there are "pure" forms of obsoletus, as well as many intergrade areas depending on where those were captured in the state. This map and others give a good idea of what can occur in different parts of Louisiana.

Also keep in mind, a Texas rat hatchling/juvenile looks VERY similar to obsoletus in it's early stages of life, then can tend to change somewhat as it matures as most of the obsoleta complex does.

Of course this map is general, and doesn't mean the ranges can't, or do not vary somewhat.

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Where did that range map come from? It's showing obsoletus well into the big bend area of Florida. I've never heard that before--black rats ranging that far south.

Mike,

I recoganize that map, its in Bartlett's litte paperback Ratsnake book ( Barron's).

Matthew

An abnormal Gulf Hammock ( Intergrade yellowXGray ratsnake) is my guess. Until he gave the locality data I was leaning toward a very dark "Deckart's" rat.. Florida snakes have so many pattern & color variations they deserve a book of their own!

Matthew

Try a slightly hyper-melanistic Gray Rat. I have two Gray Rats that are sisters. One looks normal and the other is dark like that one. I see nothing strange about there being dark colored Gray Rats, just as I see nothing unexpected when people find very light colored Gray Rats. Gray Rats don't all look alike, nor do Black, Texas, or Yellow Rats.

There have been many posts on this one, but if you ask me, it is much to do about nothing. Mother nature doesn't read field guides, and match their coloring.

Pair or Gray Rats from same clutch. Note that one is much darker than the other. This is normal.

...or that we overempathize differences in sub-species, which are still ONE species afterall.

Matthew

You know, I saw a Texas rat this morning almost as pale as those. Unfortunately, being an idiot, I forgot to purge the full memory of my camera. as I fought with that, my subject decided I was standing a bit TOO close and left for other places. Drat! Nicely colored one, too. Looked like a "White Oak" Grey rat but with a creamy yellow ground color. Plus slight stripes on the first part of the body. Must be typical of the ratsnakes in this area..

Matthew