Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is the delema.....I had a one of my girls drop some eggs (12) but then she stopped and 5 got impacted....I managed to manipulate one out but the other 4 were just no coming out..so i waited another month and a half to see what she was doing...after saoking her several times and rising temps and giving a good lay box NOTHING....SO i looked up on the herp vet connection and found a local vet on the list...So i took her in to get looked at...And like i have read in this forum it was surgery or he can contiune to manipulate...so after about an hour of manipulating another came out (this is where it gets interesting) Along with that egg, about 4 what looked like small eggs came out all attached together with a membrane of some kind...so he preceeded to get the rest of the eggs out....the membrane was attached to the inside of her and he told me that they could be underdeveloped eggs or her ovaries...anyway...they werent going back in so he ended up removing them and sutering the area.....i left very distraught (sp?) feeling like he had no idea what he was doing...

Well the good news is that was in June of this year and she surived that ordeal....the bad news is she has not eaten a meal on her own since...We have been forcing rat pinks, which I hate because i dont belive in forcing...but it is either that or she dies and i am not going to let that happen....She is in my herp room where the temps range from 80 to 89...with the humidity of 55-65....I have taken water away from her for a week to try to get a response....brained....live....put her in a small container...left overnight (frozen not live)....sigh...my ideas are running out....she is more afriad of food than wanting to eat...She was never a picky eater..always destroyed anyhting that came close to her (besides me of course )....I would put a picture but she is sooo skinny just skin and bones I am keeping her alive with the forcing but i am afraid i am doing more damage than good here...can anyone give me another option or your opinion of what the next step might be.

Thanks
Scott

the vet pulled her oviducts out and cut them.....it's a wonder she wasn't dead in like 12 hours....

if you are lucky the tubes helaed themselves over....she will never be able to lay again....probably....she can get gravid and one tube can release eggs and one tube will eaither be closed off or ????,....eggs may get stuck?....like going into a sock with a closed end...

all my opinion.......

......good luck......
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I figured that is what he did....I amnot worried about breeding her again....wasnt planning on breeding her again this year....I am conserned about getting her eating again....sigh

Yes, this guy screwed things ALL up in there. After very extensive palpating(forcing around) things in the female for hours, he then removed the oviduct and who knows WHAT else. It is a wonder the snake is alive at all. BUT!,.....the question is are you prolonging the suffering of the snake by letting it just hang on to life at this point?

If she is nothing but skin and bones now as you mentioned, as bad as it may sound,...the best thing just might be to go to a different vet to have it humanely euthanized.

I have a bad feeling this incompetent "quack" did her no good at all.

I hate hearing about these things too, as I don't like the idea of ANY animal suffering needlessly either, especially for a prolonged period.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I am happy that she is alive and really she seems pretty normal...she is just not eating....her urates have a very strong smell....but other than that she seems fairly normal....I will work on a pic tomorrow to post...so you can see if she is skinny or wasting away

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Here is my sick girl...and her with another one of my girls

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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

First of all, very nicely colored corn!........Okay,....yes, she is thin, but not as bad as I was expecting,...so there might be some hope. I would suggest you might give it(or vet give it) a good dose of flagyl(Metronidazole). This is an antibiotic for stomach/intestinal pathogens(flagellates), and is also known to stimulate appetite as well. Some speculation would be that it eradicates the cause pathogen(s), thus the appetite would return with great vigor,...especially with an animal that is emaciated and hasn't eaten in some time.

The dosage for this is 25-50 mg/per kg. of body weight, repeat in 10-14 days. I would go to the heavier side of this(50 mg.) as it is very well tolerated. Approx. 1/16th of a 250 mg. pill for a 300 gram animal. Flagyl comes in paste form as well for horses, and you might get some of this from a local feed store in your area.

Crush the 1/16th portion of pill VERY well into powder form, and mix with approx. 1 cc of water in a small shot glass. This powder does not totally dissolve, so mix it thoroughly and again just before drawing it up in a syringe with tubing or something similar attached to the tip so all the sesidual powder at the bottom will be drawn in.

Do NOT! attempt to feed the snake AT ALL during this time, as this medication kills the GOOD stomach flora(bacteria) as well the bad, so it will not be able to digest meals properly while being medicated until it has a chance to rejuvinate the acids/enzymes, and electrolytes again after it's last of two dose regimen(approx. one week or so after last dose).

Hold the snake's head and entire body upright(with a second person to hold the body), and carefully pry it open and gently glide the smooth tip down the snakes throat a good way(approx 6 inches or so if possible, being careful to avoid the glottis(wind-pipe)at the base of the lower jaw. Press the plunger slowly, or the contents can easily run back up and out of the mouth. Hold the snake in this position for fifteen or so seconds to let gravity help the medication go as far down as possible were it is needed, then return the snake to it's cage.

I would strongly suggest that it gets a dose of Panacur(Fenbendazole) at 50-100 mg. per kg of body weight, repeat at same 10-14 day interval as well to treat any possible Nematodes(worms), as these things can stress a snake to not voluntarily feed.

Remember, the snake SHOULD NOT be fed during this period, OR up until a week or so AFTER treatment so the stomach can be allowed to get back to normall before attempting to feed, otherwise you risk regurgitation in a big way!. It is EXTREMELY important that you do not let it regugitate ANY meals, because at this point with it not doing well anyway, it could easily cause a "domino effect) of regugitation that it could not recover from.

If any of this seems too much for you yourself to undertake, I would strongly suggest you get it to aqualified vet to administer these medications at these doses, and follow these instructions to the letter, this way there could be a chance of a good outcome.

If all this does nothing for the snake, I really don't know what else to suggest.

Good luck with this, and I hope the snake pulls through!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks not really sure about if they are morphs or just locality norms

I actually have Flagyl....I have ben injecting it into the rat pinks that we have been forcing guess that was WRONG!!!....I will defiantly just give her the flagyl the way you described...Hopefully that will spark her appetite....I dont have the medicine you metioned i am guess a vet would prescribe that..

Thanks for the help...i knew posting in here would be helpful
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

Apparently the rat pups are just small enough that regurgitation hasn't occurred. Larger meals certainly would.

Yes, Panacur, which is the wormer, can easily be obtained from the vet.

I hope between those two medications the snake develops an appetite again!, ....but only time will tell.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I guess....she has been keeping her down we have only been doing it everyother week so

I will look into it thanks

I hope something works...i am not going to lose her
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

problem is that even with or without cooling her ever again she may ovulate and try to lay eggs again.....

good luck
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Sigh....Just when i started to feel better about the situation...haha

You think she will ovulate again if she got everything removed?.....she is definately off limits to breeding and quite frinly i am now scared to try breeding again with any of my snakes
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

breed all you want....stuff happens ,,,but not always.....

she did not have everything removed, just probably a section of oviduct?..did the vet take any of the tube out? or was he/she smart enough to take eggs out of duct /s and put the duct back into snake?......

......aspiration ......learn what it is and how to use it.......do not shove,push or pull eggs from any snake......vets cannot manipulate eggs out any better than you or I can.......if they are stuck they are stuck for a reason......pushing them out won't help......the tube comes with it....

it has been said and told to actually take the egg and shove it a LITTLE bit upward into the snake ...a little...not towards the end...and let the female do the rest....

it all involves nest box, temps, age, size, number of eggs, where they are stuck.....

aspiration of the first egg helps alot......sometimes aspiration of all the eggs is needed......

sometimes nothing helps......

good luck......
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He removed 4 small round egg looking "things"....everythign whent back in on its own...I dont know what is left...she is definatly not going to breed any longer (if she lasts that long)

I have heard of asperating....do you needle the egg through the vent or through the snake?

Yeah I was not prepared for her to breed. i was building my herp room and cages to house al ofmy snakes individually...during that time I had her with my two other adults...i didnt do anyhting with temps or anyhting but i gues nature just did it on her own....I had no idea she was gravid untill i saw eggs in the cage...sigh...she might have been too young...and did not have a nesting box until i saw the first couple of eggs...trying not to blame myself...but it is becomeing difficult....sigh

thanks all for you help btw
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

when I aspirate the first egg or a few eggs I just stick the needle into the egg through the side of the snake.....then pull plunger of syringe to extract yolk from it till the syringe is either full or the plunger is fully extended......it requires 3 hands......which I don't have.....(think about it....I do it alone)......

......if eggs are AT the vent they can be taken out but not just shoved out all the time..

soooo..you are saying the vet did not take out any oviduct material????>......if not..she may actually breed and lay again someday.....

.......I know guys that used to refridgerate the female....slows her downnnn......cut her side open..take eggs from oviduct (yes cut oviduct).....eggs out....oviduct placed back inside...and sew up the female......and yes bred her again year later......I never tried this......

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Well i can hadle the aspirating through the side...but i am definatly not qaulified for the whole cutting them open thing.

He took out 4 what looked like small jelly bean sized eggs that were attached by a thin membrane...i have no idea what that is
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein

if he took out membrane.....it's oviduct .....and stupid to do so............

......yep
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no he just removed the egg looking spheres...he left the membrane
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Scott
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -Einstein