Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just telling Jeff B. about finding a male plains garter breeding with a female wandering at a park here in Great Falls in May of this year, & I've been wondering what thier babies would look like. I went to that park yesterday & didnt find a baby one, but did find what I'm pretty sure is an adult plains garter X wandering garter. What do you guys think?

Dan Eby

Dan,
Interesting,I'm certainly no expert with wanderings, I've never even seen one in person, but there is definately more gray and less black on the head and sides than any plains that I have ever caught or any of the plains that I have purchased, and they are usually more solid light colored on the belly, and that one has a lot of dark to the belly is that a typical trait of the wanderings. Neat find, and neat observation of the mating of these two species this spring, evidence of possible natually occuring hybrid/intergrade. It would be nice to do DNA testing to prove or disprove, and I think it would be neat if someday hobbiest could send a DNA sample of their snakes to a commercial lab, for a nominal fee, hey! maybe I should quit my job and start a new business. It is a bit concerning to me that gartersnake genetics don't get "muddy" like the corn snakes have, depending how much of a purist you are about the subject of hybridization. I myself think that ideally as a responsible breeder things should be kept as clean as possible but that is just my oppinion, and oppinions vary on the subject, but hey you can't stop nature from doing what it will, and you are certainly showing some possible evidence of that. Interesting stuff Dan
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

I'm no expert either Jeff, but there isnt a single place in MT (That I have found yet anyway) where the wanderings have such a wide orange stripe, or where the plains have black on thier bellies, & one thing for sure is that this snake has the face of a plains garter.

Dan

I don't think it's a hybrid...have seen wanderings like that here in Utah and there's no plains garters here. Nice looking one tho!!!

here's a similar one....

Actually, I see tons of them that look like the one in your pic (nice one BTW). Look closer at the one I posted, look at the face then look at the face on yours. Also notice how orange the stripe is towards the snakes neck, & the pic really dosnt show how orange it is.

Thanks,
Dan

I had one that passed away this summer that a more orange stripe than that one... the one in my photo doesn't have the markings on the face like yours, but I have others with the markings like that.

this one has some of the face markings like yours.....

I don't know? I'm not convinced. The photo Dan posted looks more T.radix to me, but again ideally we could run a DNA sample and compare to reference sequences of the different species and then we would be talking about the significance of the amount of variablity with in the two species and how that relates to the snake in question, rather than opinions based on visual evidence from a photo.
I also can't wait untill we can genetically engineer morphs and morph combos. Someday maybe soon that option will be a reality....I like to dream
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus