Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is in regards to the post about the Pastel Butter Kingpins thread.

I don't see what the big deal was calling it a Pastel Butter Kingpin in the first place. I don’t think any disrespect was shown to RD - if anything it’s a compliment by using the name, although the Emperor pin has a nice ring to it.

For example, look at Pewters! You see Pewters created using similar but different morphs; Cinnamons & Black Pastels. These two morphs when crossed into a Pastel create the Pewter and you see everyone calling them both Pewters.

I think when you have similar morphs like these that create very similar morphs when crossed, then the original name should be used. Trying to create different names for almost identical morphs only adds more confusion to this industry. With so many morphs already existing, and new ones still popping up, people looking to get into balls and newbies that have just taken the plunge are left scratching their heads and getting discouraged and bewildered because of this name game.
My suggestion is this: (for those who can't tell by looking)

When you have a Pewter created by a Black Pastel, label it a "Black Pewter". That way others recognize that a Black Pastel and not a Cinnamon was used to create that pewter.
When you cross a Butter with a Pin then label it a "Butter Kingpin" so others see a Butter and not a Lesser was used to create it.

Just my 2 cents on alleviating confusion in this industry caused by the name game.

Eric Baker
Baker Reptiles

I see where you are coming from. I agree, there wasn't any disrespect to Ralph. I think the Pewter differs a bit because it is geared towards the pastel (black or cinny). Therefore, I agree it is a good idea to say black pewter or cinny pewter, rather than just pewter. If you look up pewters you find both versions. The only issue I see is that the king part of kingpin refers to the lesser form. So saying butter kingpin, to someone new, sounds like butter lesser pinstripe--especially if you are looking up names online. I'd be more inclined to call it a queenpin rather than kingpin if the butter gene is involved (don't like that name). I like the name Emperor just because it leaves no doubt that it refers to the butter version, not the lesser. Regardless, excellent animals! Imagine crossing a cinny butter to a black pastel lesser....it would be a sweet animal but naming it would be interesting

good post

The Kingpin, first produced by Ralph Davis is a cross of a Pinstripe and a Lesser Platinum. That cross is known by that name so to call it a Pastel Butter Kingin implies that it's a pastel butter lesser pinstripe, which it's not. There is no Lesser in it. That's the reason for the issue.
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

I know that Ralph Davis was the first to create the Kingpin from his original Lesser Platty bloodline, but that line carries the Platty gene where others do not. (that has been proven anyway)

So why do others that have crossed a Lesser(not from RDR's original Platty line) to Pinstripes, still call them Kingpins if there's no way of them producing Platty Daddy versions?
If thats the case then the other Lesser lines should technically be a different name then RD's Kingpins. And that just adds to the Name Game Chaos I'm taking about.

not all of the offspring from the original Platty Dad carry the special gene, or that the gene that makes the Platty Dad show up is too hard to identify therefore all of them could be carriers. According to the website it took breeding the lessers back to a normal sister to get the Platty Dad.
There has been another Platty dad produced and it was posted here, but I can't remember who the person was.
I have a question about the whole Butter/Lesser same thing issue. Has anyone produced a Platty Dad from a butter to normal sib breeding? I think they are different but I myself have never seen them in real life side by side. To me it just seems that the butters are just that buttery looking, whereas the lesser is just that a lighter shade of platinum. They are both beautiful none the less
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

you bring up a good point and the answer to the question is YES Ralph himself has bred his line of butter to a platty sib (normal looking) and produced the "Daddy" version. It has been proven that to produce a "Daddy" with either lesser or butter bloodlines you have to have the normal sibling or Daddy animal that carries the gene.

Also since the lessers from Ralph have been around for quite some time now, where are the platty's? I think it's been long enough now that a lesser is a lesser no matter who it comes from. Now i will admit, Ralph does produce some of the best looking lessers which he should since he is the founder of the morph and has been selectively breeding them longer than anyone else and he's a great guy as well. If you haven't been serviced by RDR you don't know what you're missing. (wait that don't sound right, lol).
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

He does seem to get around...LOL
He was the first person i bought from when I started buying BP's online. Thank you Mr. Hutto!
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

NP
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

beginning...I concur

the butter and lesser is the exact same morph just originating from 2 different breeders. This is not a pastel butter kingpin, it's a pastel kingpin (butter lineage). Everyone wants to get caught up with the semantics (sp) of the name game and this is ultimately causing soooo much confusion. People changing names of existing combo's and morphs constantly just because it's from a different lineage but still the same morph. People naming morphs before they are proved out when alot of these "new" morphs will actually prove out to be something already established in the hobby. I have no problem with naming a NEW morph but put in the extra 1-3 years and no what you are naming and marketing. The market has come to the point that unless the animal is stunning from the start, it's not going to be worth thousands and thousands of dollars anymore. Waiting until you have a super proved (which may be stunning) is logical and the responsible thing to do. I love ball pythons, they are awesome. I've been keeping them since the early 90's and breeding since the late 90's and I'm starting to get confused over what morphs are actually out there (how many lines and names for sables or granites can we really have?)

Back to my original statement. Take 10 average butters and 10 average lessers and put in one 32qt tub. I will bet nobody will be able to seperate them all correctly.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Exactly, I still laugh when I see people paying more for butters than lessers.
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John Vandegrift

I think people name things too fast. The butter name is probably the confusing name (no disrespect). Instead of saying it is a lesser--xyz lineage vs lesser--RDR lineage. It is similar to pastels. If I imported a pastel and called it a yellow blusher, it would complicate things. Instead, breed it to known lineages and say pastel--xyz line or pastel-graz line or pastel-ruppel line

good responses, take care all