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I'm really considering getting a pair of Stillwaters (probably hypo or maybe one hypo and one het) at Daytona. what's the average size on these guys? i know some bulls get huge. And then others are more moderately sized. Also, any recommendations on really nice ones at the show? i seem to remember seeing quite a few in years past. Thanks.

It is great to see the interest in these guys even after so many years!

keep in mind that if you get a het for Stillwater hypo it won't be pure for the original "Stillwater Hypo" group. To get a het some one would have out crossed to something else to produce hets because hets for the original group were never offered.

Anyway, you should act on your desire and treat yourself to a nice pair of these gems!

Thanks for the reply. so, let me get this straight: a Stillwater hypo is just a bullsnake from the Stillwater, OK area that is hypo. And there are other hypo bulls that are not Stillwater (just "generic", for lack of a better term). So no one has bred the hpyos to just a normal from the Stillwater area to get a het? Do the Stillwaters vary a lot? I really like the ones I've seen with the high contrast. Thanks a lot.
Mike

Ok you are partially correct...........The Stillwater hypo group is descendent from a couple of animals "rescued from a rattlesnake roundup in Stillwater OK. Actual locality of founders can not be traced to anywhere more specific than that. I believe that the "stillwater" hypo line has been bred to a whole bunch of other localities and non-locality morphs including animals reported to have come from the general Stillwater OK area. So you have "stillwaters" and "stillwater outcrosses". It is my humble opinion that only true from the original blood line animals should be called Stillwaters and everything else should be called and considered a Stillwater outcrosses.....this is probably not very realistic or practical at this point and has taken up lots of time and discussion on the Pit forum off and on over the past few years. I have some nice F2's from the original blood line and it is fairly important for me personally to know that my "stillwaters" are "stillwaters" and not outcrosses but that is a totally personal thing and may not be so important to others. It is a neat trait, there is a lot of potential for the trait when mixed with others, genetic diversity is probably not such a bad idea, and I think that it is a mute point at this time. Billy is probably busy on his way to Daytona or else he would be in here defending the pure line and lamenting the sloppy use of the classification "Stillwater Hypo"

Thanks for the info. Very interesting stuff. Will you have any available this year?

Like John just said I also have a special place in my heart for the true stillwater bulls.I treat them as a bloodline actually and have always thought they should have been called Ginter hypos.That would have made much more since because like john said and I have said many times,the name "stillwater" comes into play ONLY because that is where the Rattlesnake round-up was held and thats where they were rescued from.They could have been collected together or apart and from just a few miles apart or many miles apart and from just a few miles from Stillwater or many.
When I hear it now days I just know what hypo line is at work.The locale thing is totally lost unless you buy them from John,myself or a small handfull of others and even then the "locale" is kinda made up or whatever you want to call it.

L8r Shannon

>>>>>They could have been collected together or apart and from just a few miles apart or many miles apart and from just a few miles from Stillwater or many.

>>>The locale thing is totally lost unless you buy them from John, myself or a small handfull of others and even then the "locale" is kinda made up or whatever you want to call it.

In other words, Stillwaters are not locality animals. But what they are, is a very unique bloodline, so don't let the lack of locality data scare you away from them.
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I see an ad in the classifieds now stating they are Stillwater Hypos. The male is from John Ginter and the female from Homegrown Herps who got his stock from John, so they are pure Stillwater Hypos. And very nice looking animals I might add!

I hope that is true because I just bought a few from this add you speak of. How difficult is it to find these because I rarely see them being offered.

It's about as hard as getting in touch with John Ginter or any of the handful of people that are known to produce them and I'm sure John knows a few kind souls that could sell you a few more.

As for hoping I'm right, well, I did a little checking around and probably didn't probe as far as I could have if I was truly paranoid but felt considering the circumstances that I really didn't have to. And I figure John would have blasted the ad if it was obviously false. We've done that in the past a while back on some ad I can't remember exact details of...

But really, if your really worried about what your buying, best to stick with the original source. But frankly, the source might only have just so many available and so...

congratulations on your new bulls! We look forward to pictures as they grow!

actually I rarely look at the ads on kingsanake and I can not recall ever blasting one in the past. I have recieved e-mails from Billy indicating outcrossed stillwater ads but I rarely get involved as it is non of my business.

Billy usually raises a stink and I tell him, "I can't control what others do, pure stillwaters are important to me and I know mine are pure so I am satisfied with that"

I do not really know who has pure representatives of my pure stillwater line anymore as my stuff generally goes to a whole sale guy (John at Suncoast herp). I lost the founder female this year and she has not produced for a couple of years but I am raising up one of her granddaughters, so known pure stillwaters should be available from me just around the corner. I am sure that there are many other folks working with pure stillwaters but I am sure that there are plenty of folks who have out crossed animals who do not even know that their animals are out crossed.........

keep us posted regarding your search

yeah, the ad blasting was by other people and not sure that I was actually involved in that, but anyhow, now I see I've got more work to do...*sigh*

Please excuse my little knowledge of the subject for I am still learning. Can someone please explain to me the passion some people have on the wrong doings of outcrossing this snake? Does it make the genetic make up better or worse? I was told that outcrossing would just make the genetic makeup a little better. Is this true? I kind of see it like kissing cousins in humans. something that might cause a higher risk of birth defects. Are reptiles different? Could you physically tell if this stillwater snake is outcrossed?
Thanks for the input

Yeah, we are talking about animals that are not isolated to a small area here. But why the argument is brought up, is that you've got as I understand it, two snakes that are the original animals of this hypo gene. So to keep the line going you'd have to be breeding siblings if you want to keep it only within the boundaries of the original pair and nothing more. So yes, you'd then have to inbreed something awful. But as far as I know of, there are no current problems genetically with this bloodline. Your going to have arguments up and down the spectrum on this one!

Some will say, because it was a rattlesnake roundup, that we have no idea of the exact locale of the animals rescued. So we don't know locality, thus trying to breed ANY other bullsnake into the line will produce outcrossed stock and no longer truly locality pure any more since they are not pure to that individual pair. But was locality ever an issue in the first place? Cause true locality is unknown!

So why is there any argument at all about purity when shouldn't it be treated like any other recessive gene? Well, yes and no! Yes, you still have the Hypo gene cropping up when you outcross but because when you outcross your still having a new set of genes that may affect how the hypo gene is expressed.

Case point, when you breed Hypo into an Okeetee Corn snake versus a plain jane generic looking corn snake, you can in the second generation have two very different looking Hypo corns show up. In fact Hypo A has shown up in Okeetee lines of John Meltzer that look different and cleaner than the regular Hypo A that most of us know.

I'm hoping I didn't lose anyone in that! So yes, they hypo gene can still go on, but your going to have the purists who want to say, Stillwater blood only! And then on the other side your going to have people who say, we need to outcross this gene, it's still hypo, and it's from the Stillwaters...so we call them stillwater hypo.

So thus hackles get raised cause...the stillwater blood only could get unhappy that their Stillwater name is being used to make sales. But really, is that fair? It's still the Stillwater Hypo gene expressing itself! So that is why those who sell the outcrossed stock say Stillwater. Yet I do have to side with the purists on this one. I would like purity if at all possible. But I myself don't know how people who WANT to be honest are going to word it. They want to get the highest dollar for great looking animals. They don't want to sit there and say, oh by the way these are outcrossed and so not pure to the line Stillwaters...

But frankly maybe they should? I mean, are we unhappy with how these animals that were from outcrossed hets are turning out? From what I'm seeing in pictures, I'm not unhappy! But after doing a bit more digging, I found out something...

*quote Ben Rogers*
I got the female from a guy named Brendan who got her from Home grown herps. He traded some leopard geckos at a show for a trio of Jim's Stillwater hypos. I e-mailed Jim at the time and he confirmed the female came from him. I meant to ask Jim a little more about my female before I had these babies but as I recall Brendan did say she was the result of breeding a stillwater hypo to a stillwater local bull in order to keep the line as pure as possible while still allowing some genetic diversity.

So now you have the absolute purists SCREAMING foul cause...the ad does read Stillwater Hypo Bulls. But I say, not totally fair, cause they ARE Stillwater Hypos! Didn't say Stillwater Hypo locality! Though I hate tossing locality in there, cause, well, we really don't know exact locality where the original pair were swiped up for the rattlesnake roundup from where they were rescued.

In the ad, the father to the babies is pure Stillwater blood. The mother is from an outcross to a Stillwater locality normal bull. So there are going to be some that are going to say, what's the problem? It's still a gorgeous Hypo bullsnake from that same general area!

I can see the point some can and will make that oh, we need to keep the line pure. But I do see the point very well of those who say, we need to cross this out a bit but to animals from that general area.

So anyhow, each person has to make their own decision on what they want of this hypo gene. Do you want only descendents that are pure blood relatives of the original pair. Or descendents of outcrossed animals that still carried and expressed the hypo gene? The more animals you include into a line the more variation in look your going to have when the hypo gene is expressed.

These babies produced in this particular ad are still very much bright Hypo with black showing. Totally different from the other hypo gene out there in bullsnakes. If I recall correctly, John Meltzer has yet a third gene of hypo in bullsnakes. So they have the gene, and are three fourths pure to the Stillwater line IF the mother was from het to het breeding. If Jim were around, which, at the moment I'm sure he's at Daytona, he could step in and say a word or two.

I say, to each their own, but there does need to be a total honesty about advertising, which sadly, often never is totally honest or up front with ALL the information! Was Ben lying? No he wasn't! It really depends on the buyer to do the digging to find out exactly what is meant and what they know!

I have called on a couple ads for New Jersey Northern Pines, and when you ask on it, you often find that, oops, they can't actually verify they are New Jersey locality stock Northern Pines...but they look like it... Huh?

Or you have those that say, well, the guy I got them from said they were, so I'm saying they are and I believe it! I know, a whole new can of worms to play with! But seriously! It depends on what is important to each buyer I guess! I have Northern Pines I have kept and am calling John Meltzer pure stock. John can't give me the name of the guy he got his from. The poor guy doesn't need the mud slinging that too often goes on with locality people! I don't blame him one bit! But he had wild caught stuff back in the seventies that John got babies at that time. And that's perfectly good enough for me.

So that's what it will boil down to, what are YOU as a buyer happy with?

Sadly someday none of this is going to matter anymore. We are going to just hope to get a pure bullsnake, or pure pinesnake, or pure cornsnake...oh wait, what am I saying? sadly enough you don't know if your captive bred cornsnake is pure cornsnake anymore! That's yet another can of worms I won't get into on a PITUOPHIS forum... he he he Unless you buy it from someone who can say they got it from wild caught adults or a bloodline and kept it pure to the bloodline.

So you have to ask yourself what's more important, the look or the purity of blood you don't see anyway? I see both sides. And would myself like to have purity of blood AND the look! When I pick out a baby herp of any group, I want the nicest looking one. Who cares if a plain looking snake is pure Okeetee Hunt Club? Well now, to some purist out there, that IS a big deal. But for me, it better look like an Okeetee for me to call it an Okeetee! And all the better if Okeetee Hunt Club locality can be verified.

I've babbled on WAY more than I should have. Sorry folks! Just had a lot of thoughts come to me as I hit up on this topic!

I have said al that 100 times or better.It really comes down to what is important to the buyer.
For the record there will never ever ever be any true outcrossed stillwater buls.I don't care if you found the snake crawling across main and first street in down town Stillwater Ok. We al know that there is no way to ever know where the 2 animals John got came from.Heck, they may be from northern Texas or whatever.
The fact is that they were rescued from a Rattlesnake roundup in Stillwater Ok.Thats all we know for sure and it should end there.

Jim was able to get his hands on some animals collected in stillwater and so he has in his mind outcrossed the stillwater bulls to strengthen the line. I am not sure the line needed strengthening but to each his own.I have some f4 animals that have nothing but the blodd that Johns 2 snakes had in them and they are big and robust and breed fine and I will be selling f5 babies next year.

I also for several years now took one of my male stillwater hypos and bred it to all kinds of other bull morphs to use the hypo gene that it carries.In my eye the stillwater hypo gene is better looking than the Trumbower (generic) line and when mixed with amel,axanthic,whitesided,patternless etc... it makes better looking ghosts,snows,bluizzards etc....

So, bottom line is I offer "pure" stilwater hypos with no other genetics or anything and then I offer a wide aray of "morphs" that I have used the same stillwater gene in.
You can buy what you want and be happy but never be tricked into buying a outcrossed stillwater hypo bul cause there is no such thing.There is no such think as a het for stillwater bull unless they indicate that its just a generic bull that is carriening the stillwater hypo gene.

Its water under the bridge and the past can't be changed but, ever since the very first time I heard the real story and then knew they really had no true locale data I wished that John would have hung his name on them instead of a locale name for the morph.It would just make things much esier but it is what it is.

L8r Shannon

Thanks for the compliment. Another point I'd like to throw in is, some of the corn snake morphs we have now are from animals people have found in pet stores! And Ambers still look the same when they come out of het breedings in later generations. And from what I'm seeing, the stillwater hypo gene still looks pretty much the same in successive generations. So really it is to each their own. But the babies I see in an above post are no different than the batch Ben Rogers is now selling. So for me it's like the amber gene in corn snakes, it's a genetic color morph. So for me personally, keeping the line pure is nice but...not something I'm going to stand firm on with no distinct locality for Stillwaters that they are isolated from other populations of bullsnakes. Such as say New Jersey Northern Pines are isolated from Alabama Pines. There is no cross over. Seperate populations thus are to me more important to get all excited about rather than oh, a morph popped up and we don't know the exact locality.

But yes, please understand me, I do understand the desire of some to keep the line pure to the original adults. More power to you folks and I can indeed appreciate this effort. And I look forward to adding a pair of pure to line Stillwater Bulls to my collection in the future!

AWESOME post Russell. That really explains things nicely. Hopefully others will take the hint and TRULY represent what they have in their ads. Looking forward to seeing you at Tinley.

Take care
Jeff Port

thank you for the elaborate responses. great info for a newbie. I understand it as being all this boils down to is all I have are snakes that have been genetically altered from the two original pure locality snakes where nobody knows exactly where this locality is. Or maybe some true purist knows but dosen't believe in taking any snake out of the wild so they are just not telling. ha ha Then comes a big bulldozer crushing all the bullsnakes which gives us the ultimate bullcrap. j/k Thanks for the info everybody. Now I am part of the confusion this hobby presents. Now I am out to find the purist of all pituophis whether it be albino, snow, whitesided, kingsville x OK stillwater golden hypo,etc..... wish me luck my fellow snake lovers............

buddy, just cleaned cages again today and baby pines have shed again, man I wonder...I think both you and Brian are going to be going, ooh, I change my mind, I like that one and that one better now...LOL! But, you never know... But frankly, the ugly duckling is turning into a swan!

Russell,
I am sure I will be EXTREMELY please with which ever pair I ende up with. Can't wait.

Take care,
Jeff

though I doubt it will happen.

People who outcross a line but continue to breed for the look of the line should indicate outcrossed.

IE - Hypo Stillwater (Outcrossed) - $99 a pair

People who want to avoid outcrossed snakes can then do so, people who want the added genetic diversity of outcrossed snakes can easily identify who to buy from.

I've seen a few do it (not for stillwater but I don't check pit adds that often) but most don't.

An example of the importance of this - there are currently ROs on the market labeled as "Amel Abbott's" - I think Joe Pierce was the first to produce them.

The Amel gene though does not exist in Lee Abbott stock, those were created by an outcross.

So someone buys an Amel Abbott and a normal Abbott and breeds them, they will label the offspring as norm Abbott.

But real Abbott Okeetee's as far as I know are Jasper County locality founding stock, the Amel Abbott are not.

Further, if something like stargaze were make it one of the Abbott outcrosses, it could cause a scare that stargaze is floating around in Lee's stock when it may not be (sunkissed is floating around in his stock though, but I don't believe stargaze is).

Anyway - it would be nice if people noted outcross when they offer an outcross. A lot of of would still buy the animal if we like the look.
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