Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hear that boas can live 30 years in captivity, but I have not seen anyone post pictures of one anywhere near that old. Is that because of IBD? I heard that 1/2 of the imported boas have IBD, so is that why it is rare to see one older than 10, or am I really wrong and many of you out there have older boas but you just don't post pictures of them? Thanks

I highly doubt that half of all imported boas have IBD. Truthfully, there is very little that is known as a 100% fact about "IBD". In fact, look up "inclusion bodies" and do some quick reading. You'll find that inclusion bodies show up for a lot of various reasons. Essentially, they are folded proteins that (and this is contested too) that are the result of a bacteria or virus. The following is my opinion: Bacteria and viruses can cause inflammation and inflammation produces a lot of things, including proteins. So basically, inclusion bodies are the result of a bodies inflammatory responses.

So, IMO, to state that something died of INCLUSION BODY disease is to basically state that the animal died from some sort of infection or bacteria, but nothing more specific.

Now, to say that half of all imported boas could show inclusion bodies in a biopsy or necropsy may very well be true because we all know that imported animals have various parasites and bacteria internally and externally. Does that mean they have IBD? No.

IBD as we know it in herpetoculture is classically diagnosed with symptoms such as refusal to eat, neurological problems, and rapid weight loss, etc.. There are MANY things that could cause that. Heck, I say try an experiment. Refuse to eat for a week and see if you lose weight and become a little disoriented. My guess is that you would. But, according to those three main "symptoms", you could have IBD. So that means we have to throw you in a freezer!! lol Totally kidding by the way.

As for your question about older boas. I have a couple of theories. One is that older boas are generally darker and "uglier" and hence, don't get shown off much. 2)Those that are willing to show off their animals are GENERALLY the "newbies" or have only been around a few years and they are really excited about their animals and constantly post them. These animals were generally purchased as babies, hence the lack of age. The older more experienced keepers (again, IN GENERAL - there are definitely exceptions) aren't like a little girl at her senior prom over boas anymore, although they do enjoy them. Of course there are other theories that I have and I'm sure you could come up with you own too.

One thing to think about... THOUSANDS, literally, THOUSANDS of boas are produced in the US each year with THOUSANDS more imported. There are LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of hobbyists who never post on forums, for various reasons. There are boas everywhere in the US, and in large numbers. We only see (and this is my guess) less than 1% of what's out there.

hmm... I think that's about it for this rant. Back to waiting in the courthouse... jury duty sucks!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

My oldest boa is Rose. She's 7 years old. I purchased her a few months after getting into this hobby back in '01.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

thanks, i was also wondering if maybe the 30life span way incorrect. i know that there is lots of bad info out there and maybe this is some of it. have fun in court btw.

Frank Slavens, the former reptile curator of the Woodland Park Zoo, runs a website that shows that one facility reported a BC that was still alive at 31 years and others documented to live to 40.

My guess is that if kept for longevity, not mass breeding, a lot of our reptiles could easily top 30. I'm in my early 40's and have come to realize that some of the reptiles I get will be the last of their type that I'll work with.

Doug T

www.DougTaylorReptiles.com

It's not just any proteins, it's the by product of viri breaking down. It's not the result of inflammation, viral infections are not always associated with inflammation. So your first paragraph is bunk.

It's not "some sort of bacteria or virus" it's a very specific retrovirus pathogen! It's diagnosed with a necropsy, not by symptoms, those do not give a definitive diagnosis. They find the IBD retrovirus in the post mortum exam. They confirm it with the microscope. Talk to any good herp vet.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

They find inclusions, yes, with a microscope, which are evidence of some sort of viral activity. This they have named "IBD", which they beleive is a retrovirus because a very reputable Reptile Vet has hypothesis such, and has been saying and writing for twenty years. He used to say it was air born too, but that changed.

Take any dead Boa to any Reptile vet, any day of the week, and they WILL find inclusions. Let me say that again, take any dead Boa, to any Reptile vet, anywhere, any day of the week, and they WILL find inclusions.
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

Thanks for clearing that up, Jeff. I find your explanation the most credible at this point.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You're right, we all have inclusion bodies, that proves nothing.

Anapsid says they determined with the electron microscope that it is a retrovirus.
"Electron microscopy has found that the organism falls into the retrovirus category." It's at the end of paragraph 5 here:
http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
Read at the bottom of the article too where it says "Q: Can the disease be diagnosed in live snakes?" We are getting closer to a blood test for boas. Right now it looks like it's only a indicator however.

You might be interested in this article from Veterinary Pathology Journal form UCDavis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11055868?dopt=Abstract
Basically they are showing the relationship of the retrovirus to the inclusion bodies. By reading it you can see that we no longer just look for something we all have: inclusion bodies. We look for the ones associated with IBD. They are antigenically distinct IBDV-associated proteins, they are not just any old inclusion bodies. In the study they also make use of liver biopsies on live boa constrictors too. Something to think about. It would be great if we could know with certainty if an animal has IBD before taking it's life.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Here's an abstract from Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida Here they explain how they started to determine that the IBD pathogen is a retrovirus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11212031?dopt=Abstract
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Yes. Inclusions in themselves may or may not indicate that IBD, a retrovirus, is present. Further diagnostic measures are necessary to confirm that diagnosis.
I once sold a Brazilian Rainbow Boa to a fellow at a show. He had effectively killed it within 15 minutes after the sale by placing the deli cup, with snake inside, in his car. When he returned 20 minutes later and told me his snake "needed a drink". After seeing the pretzel in the deli cup, I told him - "You have just killed your snake". I sprayed it with water and steam arose. He explained to me his snake would be fine. A couple days later the guy calls me up and tells me his snake died of IBD and he wanted another. That in itself makes no sense. Why would he want another of my IBD infected Brazilian Rainbow Boas? He had taken the dead animal to the vet and the vet had pronounced it had died from IBD on examination. While the dead animal was severely contorted and obviously neuromuscularly afflicted, it had died of heat stroke, not IBD. That snake and it's sibling were both stretched out on my arm straight as arrows when the guy was deciding which one to buy/kill.
My point being -- sometimes a little more investigation is required.
As always, a true story. I've got a million of them. If I told them all, Gods would be falling from Heaven.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I have one that is estimated to be in its early to mid 40's. I took in this boa after its last owner could no longer keep it. Before that, it had been owned by the president, or one time president of the NC herp society who I have been told got it in the 60's. She is a female, eats great, sheds great.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613

that is awesome. i guess it is because people just don't show their older boas. i would think that would be a huge selling point personally, to know that the breeder have boa that live long healthy lives. i guessi find it weird that many don't post their older animals. anyhow, thanks for your response.

That's a testament to great herpetoculture! Mid 40s is likely the world's record for captive specimens! Right on Warren! How long have you had her? : )
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Hi Guys,
I have had her just over two years. She is a stunning captive and quite strange to look at. I will get some photographs at the weekend. Its kind of funny in a way. You see old dogs get that grey tint around the mouth/face. Well, this girl has a yellow/orange hue around her mouth and face.

I feed her once every 2 to 3 weeks. Give her periods were I will not feed her for a month or two. She does great. She is healthy, lean, sheds great and active. Man, if she would reproduce can you imagine the genes she would be bringing back to the hobby. I'll keep pairing her each year. You never know, one year I might just get lucky. She has never reproduced in captivity so there may be little hope.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613

I have heard of older boas having babies. Don't give up on her, Warren. : )
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

np
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1.1 96, 04 Het Albino - "Suzie" & "Lumpy"
0.1 03 Poss. Het Albino - "Ami"
0.1 05 Super Salmon - "CreamSicle"
0.1 04 Anery Het Snow- "Squelchy"
1.0 04 DH-Sunglow - "Dwayne"
1.0 06 TH-Moonglow - "Gargamel"
1.2 01 BRBs- "Gobball", "Larva" & "Tofu"

Since shes currently in a trunk because we're cleaning her cage I thought I'd snap a pic. I don't know why everyone doesn't post pics of their older boas, but I know why I don't.

My exhusband/roommate isn't a big fan of snakes, so only helps me out when necessary (like cage cleaning). I can't handle her by myself, She is our largest snake at 9ft+ and is our strongest snake. I can't take her out on my own for pictures, and if i took her outside i'm sure our neighbors wouldn't be happy.

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1.1 96, 04 Het Albino - "Suzie" & "Lumpy"
0.1 03 Poss. Het Albino - "Ami"
0.1 05 Super Salmon - "CreamSicle"
0.1 04 Anery Het Snow- "Squelchy"
1.0 04 DH-Sunglow - "Dwayne"
1.0 06 TH-Moonglow - "Gargamel"
1.2 01 BRBs- "Gobball", "Larva" & "Tofu"

.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

She was our first boa ( I had a few corn snakes when I was young), and I'm still quite fond of her. We've had her for about 4 years, she was my learning about boas snake, and gave me my first real snakebite
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1.1 96, 04 Het Albino - "Suzie" & "Lumpy"
0.1 03 Poss. Het Albino - "Ami"
0.1 05 Super Salmon - "CreamSicle"
0.1 04 Anery Het Snow- "Squelchy"
1.0 04 DH-Sunglow - "Dwayne"
1.0 06 TH-Moonglow - "Gargamel"
1.2 01 BRBs- "Gobball", "Larva" & "Tofu"

I have a chondro who is atleast 20 , possibly older.

The reason there isn't many older boas is poor herpetoculture. It was always so, 35 years ago it was so, decades before IBD. Here's something we all know, that it takes a lot of hard work, time, and brains to keep a boa healthy for it's entire lifetime. On Gus' site he salutes the people who really do give great care. I have to agree. This is really why there aren't more 20 year old boas. That's a black eye to us too.

If half of the WC boas had it then most every collection with WCs in it, would also have it too, and we would surely know about it first hand. You'd be hearing about it in every forum. All the folks with WC boas would be freaking out, and we are not. In fact every instance of IBD I know about has been in CBB boas.

Anapsid says they determined that is is a retrovirus by electron microscopy. At least now we know. It's not a bunch of inclusion bodies all over, it's a pathogen, a retrovirus.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

I didn't know this:

Anapsid says they determined that is is a retrovirus by electron microscopy.

Thanks for the info, I'm going to have to read up!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

5th paragraph down here:
http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

I know of several people who have Rainbow Boas that are over 30 years old. My oldest ones were imported as adults in 1991 and 1992 and are probably around 25 years old. They are still doing great and reproducing today. If you get the husbandry right snakes can live a long time. I think we are just now exploring the limits because for the first time in history there are many snakes in captivity that are over 30 years old and some even older. 20 years from now some of these snakes may still be alive and we may be saying that snakes live 50 years. BTW, my oldest Boa Constrictor, a Surinam is 10 years old. I got rid of my Boa Constrictors in 1993. Some of them were 15 or more years old. So my collection of Surinams is relatively young.
Jeff

>>I hear that boas can live 30 years in captivity, but I have not seen anyone post pictures of one anywhere near that old. Is that because of IBD? I heard that 1/2 of the imported boas have IBD, so is that why it is rare to see one older than 10, or am I really wrong and many of you out there have older boas but you just don't post pictures of them? Thanks

At least three things come to mind that shorten a captive boas life:
1) A sedentary life. That combined with over feeding and a very rich diet. Most boas are confined in a very small space relatively speaking.
2) Many boa breeders raise their boas quickly in order to produce babies as soon as possible and recoup their investment. Just about everyone agrees this is detrimental to longevity.
3) Husbandry and keeper errors due to lack of knowledge or neglect. Most people haven't a clue. Others may loose interest or just don't care.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

My oldest boa is going to be 20 years old this coming year, I adopted her in 1998, my first boa. She was 5.5' in 98 and is over 7' now. I don't post pics of Autumn much, but here's some I posted on another forum that are cute. She escaped out of her locked boaphile a few weeks ago (yup, locked! I had put a large tub in there and best I can figure, she used it as leverage to bow out the door and squeeze out). Looking around the snake/storage room, I finally spotted this:


Had to move all the tanks off the bakers rack to expose her hiding place.

She's a smart girl and still acts like she did when she was 9 yrs old. Hopefully she'll stick around at least another 10 years. She was only bred once in 2003 and gave me 34 babies.

I also have a 10 year old albino and het that were originally from PK. I got them in 2002. They are both still going strong. Only bred the albino once in 2003, plan to do it again either this season or next. She was powerfed by her original owner, it took a long time to get her to lose all the fat.
"Lemondrop" my big yellow girl, not a great pic but ah well


"Snodgrass" het albino

Zahara is also 10 years old this year! How could I forget about her? She is one of my favorites. She gave me 18 babies in her first litter 2006, hopefully she'll do the same this coming season.

A lot of my other boas are 2001 editions. I grow them up slow and haven't bred any of them, probably not until next year, I'm hoping that this will help extend their life and let them reach their full potential. We'll see!
Take care,
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I have a Bolivian female I acquired in 1991 or 1992. She was about 6' at that time and had been in captivity for only a few months. The fellow I bought her from heard that an FBI agent on assignment in Bolivia, was able to bring her back legally at that time. I guess he didn't know anything about snake, but knew his friend who liked snakes, would think it was cool to bring one back for him. So after finding her in a tree, he caught her, stuffed her into a pillow case, and brought her back.

Boas don't get all that huge down there so I think this 6' specimen had to be at least ten years old at the time. Could have been twenty years old for all I know. All I know for sure is I have had her for 16 or 17 years and she has produced babies from me three times. She is 8' now and doesn't not show any signs of old age at all. The only thing is she does not have the same huge appetite that most youngsters have. That plus she does have a big head.

I recently lost my oldest captive bred Boa and another Bolivian Boa that I also acquired in 1991 or 1992. He was from Joe Terry's first litter and original bloodline of Bolivians born in 1985. First captive born Bolivians known actually. He was just under 22 years old at death.
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

An ex-girlfriend bought me my first boa in 1997, it was a yearling. I bought my second one, a juvie at the time, in 1998 from a friend who wanted money to go to New Orleans. They are both 12 with the second one possibly being 13. I bred the second one last year for the first time, and plan to breed either her or my first boa this coming year.

They are both in perfect health, but have had problems on occasion. They had mites once, and my first boa had her first respiratory infection early this year while being cycled for breeding.

We probably don't see as many older boas for a few reasons. A lot of boas are overfed to get them to breeding size leading to shorter lives. Older boas (mostly normals) get tossed around as peoples "projects" change and eventually find an owner that either doesn't care or doesn't know how to keep them correctly. People that use internet boards on a regular basis tend to be "newer" herpers.... That is they started keeping later than 1995. It's hard to have a 15 year old boa if your first baby was bought in 2005.

I had an older Red-eared slider that I got as a baby in 1984 when I was 7. Ohio changed it's laws regarding keeping native wildlife, and decieded to include the introduced Red-ear. I found him a "good" home out of state, where he died (got eaten by a dog) a year and a half later at just over 22 years old. He'd still be here if I'd have just kept him.

Last year on my way to the San Antonio Expo I stopped by the Snake Farm in New Braunfels. Hadn't been to the Snake Farm in 10 years, at least. Saw this Colombian Rainbow Boa in one of the cages and commented to the guy(1), the snake looked just like the female I'd left there back in Oct. 1972, the day before I went into the Navy. So the guy says to me -- "That's one of her offspring. She just died a couple of years back. She lived longer than any snake we've ever owned". This was in 2007. I had had that snake for at least 6 years. Here is a 1968 photo of it from my Photobucket page.

Bought it from Manny King(2), All Pets Pet Center, Bellaire Texas around 1965 or 1966. It was an adult when I bought it.
That kid running The Snake Farm has been there for all 3 owners. I guess he should know. When I asked him if the snake in question had a certain identifying feature, he said it did. Anyway, if this is all true, that puts that snake's lifespan in captivity of at least 30 years. Total age at death, probably 35 years, or more.

That other boa is one Joe Laszlo gave me. Think it might be a True Colombian BCC?

(1) Name withheld for privacy.

(2) Manny King -- Son of '"The Snake King" in Brownsville',pg 151, 204,...; Handbook of Snakes, Wright and Wright, Cornell University Press, 1957.
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

1965 to 2005 would be 40 years lifespan in captivity.
And a total overall age at the time of death would be 45 years.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

that is really neat!
Especially being able to see one of her offspring too!
Thanks for sharing the story and photo
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow