Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.

Waiting for the next fish...

Pouncing on the fish...

Yummmm!!!

Ed: So Jack, hungry are we?

Jack: CHOMP!

Ed: I'll take that as a yes!

-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

Ed,
..Except for some Watersnakes I have never raised a snake entirely on a fish diet. This is a ling to pages from Dr Rossi's book. I found them interesting.
books.google.com/books?id=wukkw-5cTHoC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=snake+fish+diet+deficiency&source=web&ots=e9iJLu6Xg5&sig=1z_kAJILNPvYVQN_U4dBBnrHADs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA81,M1

>>Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.
>>
>>Waiting for the next fish...
>>
>>
>>Pouncing on the fish...
>>
>>
>>Yummmm!!!
>>

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the link, but fish are just a treat, not the sole food item. I have Jack on a diet of about 80% anoles (large Puerto Rican crested anoles) and maybe 20% fish. (I give him fish every 4th or 5th feeding.) I also gave him one of Mendoza's hopper mice a few months ago. I'm a firm believer that snakes are the main food prey of wild Indigos (especially as adults), but since I can't feasibly get feeder snakes, lizards are the next best thing. And I have no problem adding in some variety like fish and an occasional rodent.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>..Except for some Watersnakes I have never raised a snake entirely on a fish diet. This is a ling to pages from Dr Rossi's book. I found them interesting.
>>books.google.com/books?id=wukkw-5cTHoC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=snake fish diet deficiency&source=web&ots=e9iJLu6Xg5&sig=1z_kAJILNPvYVQN_U4dBBnrHADs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA81,M1
>>
>>>>Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.
>>>>
>>>>Waiting for the next fish...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Pouncing on the fish...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yummmm!!!
>>>>
>>
>>

Hi Jeff,

I don't have the book, but does the Dr. commment on possible dietary deficiencies that arise from a 100% rodent diet for certain species? For Indigos, I would bet my house that Indigos that are fed only farm raised rodents are highly deficient in calcium and protein, and get *way* too much fat in comparison to wild specimens. (I can go into details, but that would probably bore the hell out of everyone.)

Rodents are great and probably make up a large part of many species' diets in the wild. And everyone has the right to decide for themselves what to feed their captive snakes, since there are economic and practicality factors besides species-specific dietary needs. But the economic and practicality factors are what's best for we *humans*, not necessarily what's best for the snake's digestive system. This subject is admittedly a little touchy for me, since I've been criticized for feeding my Indigo lizards and fish. So far all the criticism has been backed up with no evidence, however. All the evidence I've seen supports the diet I feed Jack... that's why I feed him that diet! It costs a lot and is not practical, yes, but for me it's important to mimic his wild diet as closely as possible.

Sorry for the rant...

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>..Except for some Watersnakes I have never raised a snake entirely on a fish diet. This is a ling to pages from Dr Rossi's book. I found them interesting.
>>books.google.com/books?id=wukkw-5cTHoC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=snake fish diet deficiency&source=web&ots=e9iJLu6Xg5&sig=1z_kAJILNPvYVQN_U4dBBnrHADs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA81,M1
>>
>>>>Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.
>>>>
>>>>Waiting for the next fish...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Pouncing on the fish...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yummmm!!!
>>>>
>>
>>

I wonder that myself. Everyone says to feed mice only, but there are no species in the wild that eat only one species of food. I realize most people also say that anoles are bad to feed because they are wild caught and may have parasites and such, but I always wonder what's best. You have to consider that snakes usually don't live as long in the wild, so is that due to their eating many prey items that are prone to have parasites and pathogens? And do they do better in captivity because we can minimize that? But if we could get captive bred anoles and other food items with minimized parasites and pathogens, would snakes do even better in captivity from the variety? Has anyone researched this?

I always wonder about these things... being a scientist and all.

And I have to say, some people may be bored by you going into detail, but I wouldn't be
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos

Thanks. It's nice to hear that others think about this stuff. Just the simple fact that we have to "trick" baby snakes of a lot of species into eating mice.. well, that in itself raises questions in my mind. These animals have evolved over hundreds of millions of years to eat certain types of diets, and it's common knowledge that in the wild most snakes don't eat only rats, and many species eat very few, if any, rodents. For example, I believe wild King Cobras primarily eat other snakes. I believe the same is true for Indigos, maybe to a slightly lesser extent. So feeding them only rats/mice is similar to you or me going to McDonalds every meal. I used a nutritional breakdown of prey items that I found on the web to analyze the fat, protein and calcium contents of rats, mice, lizards, frogs, etc. A rat/mouse only diet will result in way more fat and way less protein and calcium than a reptile/amphibian/fish diet. I've also observed the pooping of Jack on mice vs. his current diet - huge difference. Also, the physiology of Indigos (ie, jaws that don't unhinge nearly as much as boids) points to prey that is longer and/or narrower than rodents.

I do believe there is merit to the parasite thing, that is why I freeze the anoles. (I'm also now considering freezing the feeder fish.) I actually believe it's sort of the opposite of the possibility you mentioned - wild snakes might actually be *better* at dealing with parasites, since they are not in an artificial environment (ie, a small box with limited temp gradient.) A wild, natural environment allows them to exercise as much as they need to and to thermoregulate properly. I would imagine if wild snakes do indeed have shorter life spans it's
for other reasons, but I guess that's another whole discussion in itself.

Not sure about any research, but I'm not sure there's a huge demand for any research. Again, no moral judgement here, but it's a whole lot easier for owners to keep snakes that feed on mice/rats vs. other prey, and so it's a whole lot easier for breeders/dealers to sell/maintain snakes that feed on mice/rats vs. other prey. Is that bad or good? I don't think either, it's just the way it is. Maybe an Indigo that's fed solely rodents won't live as long and might have constant indigestion, but it might get more enjoyment out of life with a "Big Mac and a Coke" for every meal.

Thanks!
Ed

>>I wonder that myself. Everyone says to feed mice only, but there are no species in the wild that eat only one species of food. I realize most people also say that anoles are bad to feed because they are wild caught and may have parasites and such, but I always wonder what's best. You have to consider that snakes usually don't live as long in the wild, so is that due to their eating many prey items that are prone to have parasites and pathogens? And do they do better in captivity because we can minimize that? But if we could get captive bred anoles and other food items with minimized parasites and pathogens, would snakes do even better in captivity from the variety? Has anyone researched this?
>>
>>I always wonder about these things... being a scientist and all.
>>
>>And I have to say, some people may be bored by you going into detail, but I wouldn't be
>>-----
>>5.19 BRB
>>10.20 BCI
>>0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
>>0.1 Albino Corn Snake
>>2.8 Leopard Geckos

the physiology of Indigos (ie, jaws that don't unhinge nearly as much as boids) points to prey that is longer and/or narrower than rodents.

that a good point you have Ed kinda like questioning evolution. just because its easy and convenient to feed them only mice dosent mean its right, even if it does work... like you said how many baby snakes need to be tricked into eating mice...

i also think this is an interesting topic, i went into the corn snake forum asking about feeding chicken eggs to a corn. everyone agreed that it was not a good idea or wouldnt work, but then they all start arguing and yelling at me when i tried questioning it.

one guy said eggs dont provide the nutrients a corn snake needs! i was like okay thats fine but what nutrients dose a mouse have that an egg doesnt? his reply was "well i dont know but it doesnt matter" it was almost as if they where saying "it is what it is, cant tell you why just accept it" lol it was great they got so mad at me

anyways im gonna look into that!! Ed you said you cant get any feeder snakes huh is there no such thing? maybe there should be and im gonna start it lol how that Ed want me to start breeding "feeder" snakes for ya?? i wonder if that would work
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

Free thinking is a sign of intelligence and the vast majority of every population will always fight what's new and strange. I'm not saying go get some bird eggs from the back yard and feed it to your corn or anything, but to question our present practices is just plain smart. If we didn't we would never have a breakthrough!!

If you think about it, people feed quails to their snakes, and that's accepted, right? Well that baby quail gets all the nutrients it needs from the egg it hatches from, so what's so different about feeding a bird or an egg? The shell, and that's really it.
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos

well my wifey is in school for nutrition so needless to say i also and learning about nutrition, with that in mind i view my question as 100% legitimate. i just found it odd that in reply all i got was that, that was besides the point, this is how it is end of story.

my biggest argument to that was well if you don't know WHAT nutrients a mouse has that an egg doesn't, how do you know THAT a mouse has nutrients that an egg doesn't???? lol right?

anyways i haven't tried yet i don't know if my snake will know that an egg is food, but i know for a fact that corn snake are good tree climbers. they climb trees to get to birds nests for food, there is no doubt in my mind that corn snakes naturally eat eggs...
it might not be good for an egg only diet but who knows maybe it would end up being a healthier to mix it up 80% 20% like Ed does
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

>>well my wifey is in school for nutrition so needless to say i also and learning about nutrition, with that in mind i view my question as 100% legitimate. i just found it odd that in reply all i got was that, that was besides the point, this is how it is end of story.
>>
>>my biggest argument to that was well if you don't know WHAT nutrients a mouse has that an egg doesn't, how do you know THAT a mouse has nutrients that an egg doesn't???? lol right?
>>
>>anyways i haven't tried yet i don't know if my snake will know that an egg is food, but i know for a fact that corn snake are good tree climbers. they climb trees to get to birds nests for food, there is no doubt in my mind that corn snakes naturally eat eggs...
>>it might not be good for an egg only diet but who knows maybe it would end up being a healthier to mix it up 80% 20% like Ed does
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>-Step-
>>-Steve Lightning-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
>>1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
>>0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)
>>
>>hopeful for not to distant future:
>>--Brazilian rainbow boas
>> 2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
>>-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

This happened to me years ago and I wrote the story up for my local herp society newsletter.....

It all started with a skid overhead and a plop two feet behind me. I was in Texas on May 1st 2004 to attend my cousins outdoor wedding and reception in a Japanese tea garden. Not knowing my way around, I had followed other family members who were going early to help set up. The weather had been rainy and cold with thunderstorms but was just starting to clear. I found a lovely outdoor setting with Koi ponds and a large deck area with several pavilions with steep "A" frame type roofs where the reception was to be held.

Not wanting to just stand around I offered to help with the decorations. In keeping with the Japanese tea garden theme we were hanging up light strings with paper lantern covers. I was hanging up the lights near the corner of one of the pavilions when I heard a skid sound from above followed by a plop two feet behind me. I turned around to see what looked like a rubber snake on it's back. My first reaction was "who's the wise guy that tossed the rubber snake"! I had been telling stories of my snakes at home and I thought one of my uncles "known for their sense of humor" was playing a prank. As I looked at the "rubber" snake I realized it was not moving like a rubber snake going back to it's molded shape but more like a real snake moving really slow since it was really cold.

I quickly switched mental gears from prank snake to real snake, I looked first at the tail and saw no rattles. Then looked at the head and verified it was not that of a viper, slender not wide. Remember, the snake was mostly upside down. I then pulled a small travel umbrella out of my pocket. I used the umbrella to first flip the snake over then to gently pin the head as I grasped it gently but firmly behind the head with one hand. I then picked up the snake and checked it out. I quickly identified it as a adult corn snake. Not like the ones I'm used to seeing with all the various color morphs available but a normal colored corn snake. The poor thing was quite cold and not moving much but appeared none the worse for it's apparent slide down the roof and fall to the deck. There were large trees overhead and I don't know if it fell out of a tree onto the roof or slipped from the roof itself.

Realizing a wedding is not the place for a wild snake I started off to the gardens to release it back into the wild. As I was walking away I thought "we should get some pictures" I went back and my daughter snapped a Polaroid and my wife used our 35 mm. I turned to go back to the gardens and a park person offered to take it from me. He probably didn't know I was familiar with snakes and had no intention of harming it, only taking it to be released away from the wedding reception.

Well, the story spread, soon it was quite the wedding story about the snake that fell from the sky right next to the one person who was not afraid of it. Several people wanted to hear the story and see the picture, Bride and Groom included. I was quite the hero, being the snake wrangler that nonchalantly just reached over and captured the wild animal. As usual in any group (except herp groups) there were several that were relieved it didn't drop near them. I even heard that the minister had said something about it being a good thing it didn't fall near him or there would not have been a wedding. I was just happy to be there to take care of the situation and ensure the snake was not harmed.

The moral of this story is that snakes can't really fly. They can however drop in when you least expect it.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I wish the sky would rain a few snakes near me!
-----
Renee
1.0 BRB (Loki)
2.0 amel & anery corns (Foxfire & Daguerre)
0.1 blood python (Duchess, arriving later this month)
1.1 Cats (Nightshade & Cuzzy)

As far as I know one the best candidate for CB feeder snakes is Garter Snakes.

You have to deal with the downsides of a fairly aquatic snake but they are easy to care for, breed, and there are lots of food options for them(fish, rodents, amphibians, or fresh/frozen man made food). Most of them breed two to four times a year from what I remember and they are live bearers with decent sized clutches. I believe they have a decent growth rate although they do normally cap out in the 3-4 foot range I believe.

Still a fairly expensive option compared to rodents but possibly cheaper then the other alternatives. Besides you can do morphs projects with your feeders lol. If you are interested in the homemade garter snake food recipes then let me know and I'll send you the info or link.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

no thats what my first thought was would be a garter snake, when i was little i had a WC give birth to a litter of 11, coolest thing i ever saw... i used to feed my eastern garters worms and at that worm farm are crazy easy to set up... im thinking this could work if they have 2 or more clutches a year that would be great i am gonna look into this further for sure
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

If you decide to go forward with this, I'll be your first customer.

I agree garter snakes would be ideal, but it's not feasible for
me to get even one more snake right now, much less start a breeding project.

Thanks,
Ed

>>no thats what my first thought was would be a garter snake, when i was little i had a WC give birth to a litter of 11, coolest thing i ever saw... i used to feed my eastern garters worms and at that worm farm are crazy easy to set up... im thinking this could work if they have 2 or more clutches a year that would be great i am gonna look into this further for sure
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>-Step-
>>-Steve Lightning-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
>>1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
>>0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)
>>
>>hopeful for not to distant future:
>>--Brazilian rainbow boas
>> 2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
>>-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

>>
>>i also think this is an interesting topic, i went into the corn snake forum asking about feeding chicken eggs to a corn. everyone agreed that it was not a good idea or wouldnt work, but then they all start arguing and yelling at me when i tried questioning it.
>>

YES, I run into the same thing, it frustrates the hell out of me!
I don't know why people get so defensive and opinionated on this.

>>
>>one guy said eggs dont provide the nutrients a corn snake needs! i was like okay thats fine but what nutrients dose a mouse have that an egg doesnt? his reply was "well i dont know but it doesnt matter" it was almost as if they where saying "it is what it is, cant tell you why just accept it" lol it was great they got so mad at me
>>

YES!!!! Thank you for saying this, this is exactly what I run up against as well. It's amazes me how many experts there are on snake nutrition, considering we don't really know very well how it all works... in humans, the most studied animal on the planet.

I've gotten the same type of responses - "lizards don't have enough meat on them" or "they don't provide enough nutrition." I fully recognize I am taking a risk by doing things a little differently and Jack could drop dead tomorrow, but according to a lot of self-proclaimed experts he should already be dead, or at least severely emaciated, by now.

Thanks,
Ed

ohh man us "rainbow boa" guys and gals need to just stick together... i am getting NO love over on the garter snake forum either!!!
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

LOL I wouldn't suggest telling them why you are asking about garter husbandry

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Yeeahhh... I should have considered that before I posted... I learned the hard way. LOL OOPS!
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

Heya Stephen check your email. I just sent you a link to pretty much everything you were asking about.

Cheers!

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Sean/Stephen,

I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.

I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.

Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.

Thanks,
Ed

Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.

>>Sean/Stephen,
>>
>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>
>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>
>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed

Agreed, but personally I'm not out to "win" an argument, and I sincerely hope that's not the way I present myself. That's what frustrates me. I just want to a) learn from others who actually have more than hot air upon which they base their strong opinions, and b) share my experience and ideas. If someone actually has evidence that what I'm doing might present a real risk to my snake, I will change things. I should mention that there are Dry. owners who have discussed the diet issue rationally, and some have actually thanked me for doing things differently.

It's not about arguing, or at least shouldn't be.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.
>>
>>
>>>>Sean/Stephen,
>>>>
>>>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>>>
>>>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed

Ed,
...I am not going to argue with you about this. LOL. I fed my Indigos lots of everything except rodents. I had plenty of reptiles and amphibians to feed them and the rodents cost real money and were reserved for the boids. I fed fish to Watersnakes but never tried them on the Indigos. Who knew back then that they liked fish?
Jeff

>>Agreed, but personally I'm not out to "win" an argument, and I sincerely hope that's not the way I present myself. That's what frustrates me. I just want to a) learn from others who actually have more than hot air upon which they base their strong opinions, and b) share my experience and ideas. If someone actually has evidence that what I'm doing might present a real risk to my snake, I will change things. I should mention that there are Dry. owners who have discussed the diet issue rationally, and some have actually thanked me for doing things differently.
>>
>>It's not about arguing, or at least shouldn't be.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>>>Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Sean/Stephen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>>>>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Ed

Hi Jeff,

This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Did you notice
any problems then or in hindsight (ie, stunted growth, an abnormal amount of sudden deaths, sickness, visual signs of malnutrition, parasites, etc.) with your Indigos? So far Jack appears happy and healthy, and he seems to be in the range for normal growth (he's close to 4 feet long at 14 months old.) I will be getting a fecal check/exam soon as well. If you have any other suggestions for monitoring his health, I would greatly appreciate the input.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>...I am not going to argue with you about this. LOL. I fed my Indigos lots of everything except rodents. I had plenty of reptiles and amphibians to feed them and the rodents cost real money and were reserved for the boids. I fed fish to Watersnakes but never tried them on the Indigos. Who knew back then that they liked fish?
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>Agreed, but personally I'm not out to "win" an argument, and I sincerely hope that's not the way I present myself. That's what frustrates me. I just want to a) learn from others who actually have more than hot air upon which they base their strong opinions, and b) share my experience and ideas. If someone actually has evidence that what I'm doing might present a real risk to my snake, I will change things. I should mention that there are Dry. owners who have discussed the diet issue rationally, and some have actually thanked me for doing things differently.
>>>>
>>>>It's not about arguing, or at least shouldn't be.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>>>Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sean/Stephen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>>>>>>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>Ed

Ed,
...We only kept a few Indigos for any length of time. There was a demend for them and we sold or traded most of them that we got. All the Indigos we kept were messy snakes. They probably all did have parasite problems of one sort or another. Though people keeping Indigos today and feeding them rodents do report that they are messy snakes. A few that we kept were fed toads and they would sometimes pass masses of worms. Must be something about Indigo Snakes today because my brother forwarded these PICs of a Texas Indigo Eating a DB Rattlesnake. The story with the PICs mentions this being a wild Texas Indigo though it looks to me like it may have instead been staged PICs of the feeding of a captive Drymarchon. We once had a medium large Eastern Indigo eat a large injured Yellow Ratsnake that was a couple inches longer than the Indigo.

>>Hi Jeff,
>>
>>This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Did you notice
>>any problems then or in hindsight (ie, stunted growth, an abnormal amount of sudden deaths, sickness, visual signs of malnutrition, parasites, etc.) with your Indigos? So far Jack appears happy and healthy, and he seems to be in the range for normal growth (he's close to 4 feet long at 14 months old.) I will be getting a fecal check/exam soon as well. If you have any other suggestions for monitoring his health, I would greatly appreciate the input.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>>>Ed,
>>>>...I am not going to argue with you about this. LOL. I fed my Indigos lots of everything except rodents. I had plenty of reptiles and amphibians to feed them and the rodents cost real money and were reserved for the boids. I fed fish to Watersnakes but never tried them on the Indigos. Who knew back then that they liked fish?
>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>>>Agreed, but personally I'm not out to "win" an argument, and I sincerely hope that's not the way I present myself. That's what frustrates me. I just want to a) learn from others who actually have more than hot air upon which they base their strong opinions, and b) share my experience and ideas. If someone actually has evidence that what I'm doing might present a real risk to my snake, I will change things. I should mention that there are Dry. owners who have discussed the diet issue rationally, and some have actually thanked me for doing things differently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's not about arguing, or at least shouldn't be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Sean/Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>>>>>>>>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>Ed

Sorry about the small PICs. I was just over looking at the Indigo forum and see that they were posted there and larger size a couple months ago.
Jeff

>>Ed,
>>...We only kept a few Indigos for any length of time. There was a demend for them and we sold or traded most of them that we got. All the Indigos we kept were messy snakes. They probably all did have parasite problems of one sort or another. Though people keeping Indigos today and feeding them rodents do report that they are messy snakes. A few that we kept were fed toads and they would sometimes pass masses of worms. Must be something about Indigo Snakes today because my brother forwarded these PICs of a Texas Indigo Eating a DB Rattlesnake. The story with the PICs mentions this being a wild Texas Indigo though it looks to me like it may have instead been staged PICs of the feeding of a captive Drymarchon. We once had a medium large Eastern Indigo eat a large injured Yellow Ratsnake that was a couple inches longer than the Indigo.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>
>>>>This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Did you notice
>>>>any problems then or in hindsight (ie, stunted growth, an abnormal amount of sudden deaths, sickness, visual signs of malnutrition, parasites, etc.) with your Indigos? So far Jack appears happy and healthy, and he seems to be in the range for normal growth (he's close to 4 feet long at 14 months old.) I will be getting a fecal check/exam soon as well. If you have any other suggestions for monitoring his health, I would greatly appreciate the input.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>>>Ed,
>>>>>>...I am not going to argue with you about this. LOL. I fed my Indigos lots of everything except rodents. I had plenty of reptiles and amphibians to feed them and the rodents cost real money and were reserved for the boids. I fed fish to Watersnakes but never tried them on the Indigos. Who knew back then that they liked fish?
>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Agreed, but personally I'm not out to "win" an argument, and I sincerely hope that's not the way I present myself. That's what frustrates me. I just want to a) learn from others who actually have more than hot air upon which they base their strong opinions, and b) share my experience and ideas. If someone actually has evidence that what I'm doing might present a real risk to my snake, I will change things. I should mention that there are Dry. owners who have discussed the diet issue rationally, and some have actually thanked me for doing things differently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's not about arguing, or at least shouldn't be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sean/Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>>>>>>>>>>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Ed

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the info and pics. I've also consulted vets and long-time Indigo owners, the consensus is that freezing wild
caught prey will kill off any parasites. Regarding the fish,
there is no doubt in my mind that indigos eat fish in the wild. Jack goes nuts over fish, and after one fish feeding he (instinctively?) started "fishing" in the water bowl! (I've seen
garter snakes "fish" in the wild, so I'm pretty sure that's what he was doing.) I've also heard other indigo owners comment on how much their snakes love fish. As far as store bought-goldfish being harmful, I couldn't find anything concrete. Best I could find is that some snake owners seem to worry about copper sulfate. Copper sulfate is used in aquariums to treat fish parasites and/or diseases. From what I read, in certain doses copper sulfate is toxic to certain types of fish, as well as plants and invertebrates. However, other vertebrates are unaffected by it. Obviously I don't have a study proving whether or not Jack will be negatively, neutrally, or positively affected by copper sulfate (or any other chemical) he might get by a few goldfish every couple months, but next time anyone reading this is in the grocery store, check out the ingredients in baby formula.

Thanks again,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>...We only kept a few Indigos for any length of time. There was a demend for them and we sold or traded most of them that we got. All the Indigos we kept were messy snakes. They probably all did have parasite problems of one sort or another. Though people keeping Indigos today and feeding them rodents do report that they are messy snakes. A few that we kept were fed toads and they would sometimes pass masses of worms. Must be something about Indigo Snakes today because my brother forwarded these PICs of a Texas Indigo Eating a DB Rattlesnake. The story with the PICs mentions this being a wild Texas Indigo though it looks to me like it may have instead been staged PICs of the feeding of a captive Drymarchon. We once had a medium large Eastern Indigo eat a large injured Yellow Ratsnake that was a couple inches longer than the Indigo.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>
>>>>This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Did you notice
>>>>any problems then or in hindsight (ie, stunted growth, an abnormal amount of sudden deaths, sickness, visual signs of malnutrition, parasites, etc.) with your Indigos? So far Jack appears happy and healthy, and he seems to be in the range for normal growth (he's close to 4 feet long at 14 months old.) I will be getting a fecal check/exam soon as well. If you have any other suggestions for monitoring his health, I would greatly appreciate the input.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>>>Ed,
>>>>>>...I am not going to argue with you about this. LOL. I fed my Indigos lots of everything except rodents. I had plenty of reptiles and amphibians to feed them and the rodents cost real money and were reserved for the boids. I fed fish to Watersnakes but never tried them on the Indigos. Who knew back then that they liked fish?
>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Agreed, but personally I'm not out to "win" an argument, and I sincerely hope that's not the way I present myself. That's what frustrates me. I just want to a) learn from others who actually have more than hot air upon which they base their strong opinions, and b) share my experience and ideas. If someone actually has evidence that what I'm doing might present a real risk to my snake, I will change things. I should mention that there are Dry. owners who have discussed the diet issue rationally, and some have actually thanked me for doing things differently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's not about arguing, or at least shouldn't be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sean/Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>>>>>>>>>>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Ed

but next time anyone reading this is in the grocery store, check out the ingredients in baby formula.

thats great Ed lol

okay so thing over in the other forum didnt go so smooth lol, but ohh well i kinda given up over there... i still think it could potentially work
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

Yeah, but on the bright side it is more evidence that the Rainbow Boa forum is a much better place for learning and open exchanges of ideas without people getting their panties bunched up for no reason.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Thanks,
Ed

>>but next time anyone reading this is in the grocery store, check out the ingredients in baby formula.
>>
>>
>>thats great Ed lol
>>
>>okay so thing over in the other forum didnt go so smooth lol, but ohh well i kinda given up over there... i still think it could potentially work
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>-Step-
>>-Steve Lightning-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
>>1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
>>0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)
>>
>>hopeful for not to distant future:
>>--Brazilian rainbow boas
>> 2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
>>-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

ya know what the best part about that... was how quickly people make assumptions and run with then, then there are other thing like how dose questions about breeding garter snake turn into a discussion about the proper indigo diet
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

I'm still unclear why it's perfectly fine to raise other animals as food items, yet it's morally reprehensible to use a garter snake as a feeder. ???

>>ya know what the best part about that... was how quickly people make assumptions and run with then, then there are other thing like how dose questions about breeding garter snake turn into a discussion about the proper indigo diet
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>-Step-
>>-Steve Lightning-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
>>1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
>>0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)
>>
>>hopeful for not to distant future:
>>--Brazilian rainbow boas
>> 2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
>>-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

It's only fine when the garter snake is held in higher personal regard then the mice LOL.

It's the difference between a pet mentality, a farm/nature mentality, and an (extreme)animal rights mentality. With the first it is only a sin if it is the type of animal you like. With the second your an equal oportunity killer(me). And with the third killing any animal is a sin.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Mother's milk is so much better than baby formula. It is always warm and ready, it is nutritious and hygenic and it comes in attractive containers.
Jeff

>>Hi Jeff,
>>
>>Thanks for the info and pics. I've also consulted vets and long-time Indigo owners, the consensus is that freezing wild
>>caught prey will kill off any parasites. Regarding the fish,
>>there is no doubt in my mind that indigos eat fish in the wild. Jack goes nuts over fish, and after one fish feeding he (instinctively?) started "fishing" in the water bowl! (I've seen
>>garter snakes "fish" in the wild, so I'm pretty sure that's what he was doing.) I've also heard other indigo owners comment on how much their snakes love fish. As far as store bought-goldfish being harmful, I couldn't find anything concrete. Best I could find is that some snake owners seem to worry about copper sulfate. Copper sulfate is used in aquariums to treat fish parasites and/or diseases. From what I read, in certain doses copper sulfate is toxic to certain types of fish, as well as plants and invertebrates. However, other vertebrates are unaffected by it. Obviously I don't have a study proving whether or not Jack will be negatively, neutrally, or positively affected by copper sulfate (or any other chemical) he might get by a few goldfish every couple months, but next time anyone reading this is in the grocery store, check out the ingredients in baby formula.
>>
>>Thanks again,
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Ed,
>>>>...We only kept a few Indigos for any length of time. There was a demend for them and we sold or traded most of them that we got. All the Indigos we kept were messy snakes. They probably all did have parasite problems of one sort or another. Though people keeping Indigos today and feeding them rodents do report that they are messy snakes. A few that we kept were fed toads and they would sometimes pass masses of worms. Must be something about Indigo Snakes today because my brother forwarded these PICs of a Texas Indigo Eating a DB Rattlesnake. The story with the PICs mentions this being a wild Texas Indigo though it looks to me like it may have instead been staged PICs of the feeding of a captive Drymarchon. We once had a medium large Eastern Indigo eat a large injured Yellow Ratsnake that was a couple inches longer than the Indigo.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Did you notice
>>>>>>any problems then or in hindsight (ie, stunted growth, an abnormal amount of sudden deaths, sickness, visual signs of malnutrition, parasites, etc.) with your Indigos? So far Jack appears happy and healthy, and he seems to be in the range for normal growth (he's close to 4 feet long at 14 months old.) I will be getting a fecal check/exam soon as well. If you have any other suggestions for monitoring his health, I would greatly appreciate the input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ed,
>>>>>>>>...I am not going to argue with you about this. LOL. I fed my Indigos lots of everything except rodents. I had plenty of reptiles and amphibians to feed them and the rodents cost real money and were reserved for the boids. I fed fish to Watersnakes but never tried them on the Indigos. Who knew back then that they liked fish?
>>>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Agreed, but personally I'm not out to "win" an argument, and I sincerely hope that's not the way I present myself. That's what frustrates me. I just want to a) learn from others who actually have more than hot air upon which they base their strong opinions, and b) share my experience and ideas. If someone actually has evidence that what I'm doing might present a real risk to my snake, I will change things. I should mention that there are Dry. owners who have discussed the diet issue rationally, and some have actually thanked me for doing things differently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It's not about arguing, or at least shouldn't be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Nobody WINS an internet arguement. They are pointless. Participating in them is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sean/Stephen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I just checked out that discussion on the garter snake forum. It's really sad that people can't answer a few simple information-gathering questions without all the peripheral stupidity, much less respect other people's opinions. Somehow all these know-it-alls know everything there is to know about snake nutrition, yet I wonder if many/most of them have even looked at a nutritional breakdown of prey items. How can anyone with an ounce of brains at least not consider the idea that an all rodent diet for a herp eating species may not be ideal for the snake's digestive system?? Especially when the snakes on all rodent diets are crapping constant diarhea cannons?? Or if they they actually have proof that there is even a negligible risk of parasites surviving in anoles that have been frozen and then harming the snake. Hell, any food item can be contaminated - even rodents! It really saddens me, especially for a threatened species like D. couperi, since being so closed minded does nothing to help improve husbandry methods of captives. I think this is yet another example of Jeff's "snakes are great, people suck" philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would jump in to the garter snake forum discussion, because I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>see some of the same stupidity and unsubstantiated opinions I've already come across and tried to discuss rationally. But I officially give up, I'd rather go talk to the wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anyway, I commend you guys for your open mindedness.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ed

Okay the "attractive containers" is pretty funny, but I agree heavily with the first part---which is why I breast fed both my kids. Now they've discovered that kids who drank mom's milk have higher IQ's and less illness than formula fed kids too. The point of course, is that natural is better than chemical. (Mother Nature knows best.)

>>Mother's milk is so much better than baby formula. It is always warm and ready, it is nutritious and hygenic and it comes in attractive containers.
>>Jeff
>>
>>
-----
Renee
1.0 BRB (Loki)
2.0 amel & anery corns (Foxfire & Daguerre)
0.1 blood python (Duchess, arriving later this month)
1.1 Cats (Nightshade & Cuzzy)

Hard to keep serious after Jeff's titillating post, but to bring this full circle, the reason I am doing what I'm doing is because
"Mother Nature knows best!" And maybe Jack will have an IQ that is 20 points higher than that of the the average, rodent-fed indigo.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Okay the "attractive containers" is pretty funny, but I agree heavily with the first part---which is why I breast fed both my kids. Now they've discovered that kids who drank mom's milk have higher IQ's and less illness than formula fed kids too. The point of course, is that natural is better than chemical. (Mother Nature knows best.)
>>
>>>>Mother's milk is so much better than baby formula. It is always warm and ready, it is nutritious and hygenic and it comes in attractive containers.
>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>-----
>>Renee
>>1.0 BRB (Loki)
>>2.0 amel & anery corns (Foxfire & Daguerre)
>>0.1 blood python (Duchess, arriving later this month)
>>1.1 Cats (Nightshade & Cuzzy)

21? lol, couldn't resist!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Touche. If you keep this up, I'm gonna have to bring Jack out there to meet Fluffy in about a year or so. Sort of like a frosted treat for him...

Seriously, congrats on the litter, that's awesome!

Thanks,
Ed

>>21? lol, couldn't resist!!
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Now that'd be one expensive meal!!!!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Jack's IQ may rival that of those humans who don't use their brains to evaluate any snake food options other than rodents. (Okay, that's a convoluted sentence, but I bet Jack can follow it!)

>>Hard to keep serious after Jeff's titillating post, but to bring this full circle, the reason I am doing what I'm doing is because
>>"Mother Nature knows best!" And maybe Jack will have an IQ that is 20 points higher than that of the the average, rodent-fed indigo.
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>>>Okay the "attractive containers" is pretty funny, but I agree heavily with the first part---which is why I breast fed both my kids. Now they've discovered that kids who drank mom's milk have higher IQ's and less illness than formula fed kids too. The point of course, is that natural is better than chemical. (Mother Nature knows best.)
>>>>
>>>>>>Mother's milk is so much better than baby formula. It is always warm and ready, it is nutritious and hygenic and it comes in attractive containers.
>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>-----
>>>>Renee
>>>>1.0 BRB (Loki)
>>>>2.0 amel & anery corns (Foxfire & Daguerre)
>>>>0.1 blood python (Duchess, arriving later this month)
>>>>1.1 Cats (Nightshade & Cuzzy)
-----
Renee
1.0 BRB (Loki)
2.0 amel & anery corns (Foxfire & Daguerre)
0.1 blood python (Duchess, arriving later this month)
1.1 Cats (Nightshade & Cuzzy)

OF WORK!!!

This stuff is what I like to think about!!!

I've always been a proponant of a somewhat varied diet. My snake go back and forth between mice and rats with the occasional rabbit for the larger boas. Yeah I'm sure other items like birds would also be good for them.

Another point I'd like to touch on is Variable timing or skipping meals. I have no problem letting my snakes "go hungry" for a week or two on occasion. IMO it's good for them to have a periodic cleanse. It also seems to stimulate appetites.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

One of these days... when I have a PhD to justify it, I'd like to do an actual experiment and take a few same sex siblings and keep them in the same conditions with the same thermostat and everything and feed one an all rodent diet, and one a varied diet and see which type lives longer. Hopefully I could publish it too

But first I want to "perfect" my snake care for a few more years.

I'm such a science geek!!
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos

You may want to look into the sample size required for a research project like this. Take a research class and a stats class to get a feel for just how large the sample would need to be and then consider how much work it would be maintianing all those snakes and keeping data on them.

>>One of these days... when I have a PhD to justify it, I'd like to do an actual experiment and take a few same sex siblings and keep them in the same conditions with the same thermostat and everything and feed one an all rodent diet, and one a varied diet and see which type lives longer. Hopefully I could publish it too
>>
>>But first I want to "perfect" my snake care for a few more years.
>>
>>I'm such a science geek!!
>>-----
>>5.19 BRB
>>10.20 BCI
>>0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
>>0.1 Albino Corn Snake
>>2.8 Leopard Geckos

Agreed. In order to have a statistically significant sample size, you'd probably need several hundred snakes. Unless someone is funding the study for you, that's not going to be cheap, so if you really want to clean up that much poop, I'd say look for a research grant of some sort, cause it's going to be a full time job.
-----
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

Research ranges from large to small, we just call the small ones "case studies" and realize that they are statistically irrelevant. I'd love to do a study with several hundred snakes, and maybe someday I'll apply for a grant and try to... but for the time being a study with 20 snakes is better than nothing. Besides seeing which live the longest could be a lengthy study, and those tend not to be very big, due to funding issues.
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos

the shortest life span? Not that I want to own a snake that will die quickly, but for a research project on the effect of food on lifespan, to do it on snakes with a 40 year life span would take forever to "yield results." As cold as that may sound.
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos

I have a biology b.s. and a chem m.s. Research is what I do. I've worked on a ton of research projects including some on cnidarians (tiny jellyfish like creatures) and nebulizers for my bio and chem capstones, respectively. Nothing on snakes... yet! I've always felt that being well established with widely accepted information was a must before changing any variables

I also wonder what varying the diet of the rodents themselves would do. What if you fed the rodents some high nutrient veggies and such? I know the chow is "scientifically formulated" but still...
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos

This is a great point. I mentioned above that I don't think much
research has been done because there simply is no demand, but in addition, as Jeff points out, it's basically impossible for one or two people to do it. If it's even possible, it will take cooperation and communication between large groups of snake owners. That's really what I am trying to do by sharing my story about Jack's diet, especially because Indigos are a threatened species, which imo makes research a little more important.

Thanks,
Ed

>>You may want to look into the sample size required for a research project like this. Take a research class and a stats class to get a feel for just how large the sample would need to be and then consider how much work it would be maintianing all those snakes and keeping data on them.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>One of these days... when I have a PhD to justify it, I'd like to do an actual experiment and take a few same sex siblings and keep them in the same conditions with the same thermostat and everything and feed one an all rodent diet, and one a varied diet and see which type lives longer. Hopefully I could publish it too
>>>>
>>>>But first I want to "perfect" my snake care for a few more years.
>>>>
>>>>I'm such a science geek!!
>>>>-----
>>>>5.19 BRB
>>>>10.20 BCI
>>>>0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
>>>>0.1 Albino Corn Snake
>>>>2.8 Leopard Geckos

Yeah, work gets in the way of all the fun...

I agree with you about letting snakes "go hungry" sometimes. I prefer to err on the side of "underfeeding", it that's what some people want to call it. I also agree on the variable timing, although even if I didn't I'd probably do it anyway cause I'm too lazy to keep track...

>>OF WORK!!!
>>
>>This stuff is what I like to think about!!!
>>
>>I've always been a proponant of a somewhat varied diet. My snake go back and forth between mice and rats with the occasional rabbit for the larger boas. Yeah I'm sure other items like birds would also be good for them.
>>
>>Another point I'd like to touch on is Variable timing or skipping meals. I have no problem letting my snakes "go hungry" for a week or two on occasion. IMO it's good for them to have a periodic cleanse. It also seems to stimulate appetites.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Ed,
....I do not have the book with me here in Florida. I do think there is quite a bit of literature that says diets consisting solely of rodents are good for many boids. My Rainbow Boas get mostly rodents with some small chickens for the big ones and hatchling quail for the little ones. When I had Indigos I fed them a highly varied diet. They got lots of road injured Ratsnakes and seemd to like them better than anything else. Some of them would eat toads and they all seemed to eat Leopard Frogs. They only rarely got rodents.
Jeff

>>Hi Jeff,
>>
>>I don't have the book, but does the Dr. commment on possible dietary deficiencies that arise from a 100% rodent diet for certain species? For Indigos, I would bet my house that Indigos that are fed only farm raised rodents are highly deficient in calcium and protein, and get *way* too much fat in comparison to wild specimens. (I can go into details, but that would probably bore the hell out of everyone.)
>>
>>Rodents are great and probably make up a large part of many species' diets in the wild. And everyone has the right to decide for themselves what to feed their captive snakes, since there are economic and practicality factors besides species-specific dietary needs. But the economic and practicality factors are what's best for we *humans*, not necessarily what's best for the snake's digestive system. This subject is admittedly a little touchy for me, since I've been criticized for feeding my Indigo lizards and fish. So far all the criticism has been backed up with no evidence, however. All the evidence I've seen supports the diet I feed Jack... that's why I feed him that diet! It costs a lot and is not practical, yes, but for me it's important to mimic his wild diet as closely as possible.
>>
>>Sorry for the rant...
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Ed,
>>>>..Except for some Watersnakes I have never raised a snake entirely on a fish diet. This is a ling to pages from Dr Rossi's book. I found them interesting.
>>>>books.google.com/books?id=wukkw-5cTHoC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=snake fish diet deficiency&source=web&ots=e9iJLu6Xg5&sig=1z_kAJILNPvYVQN_U4dBBnrHADs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA81,M1
>>>>
>>>>>>Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Waiting for the next fish...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Pouncing on the fish...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yummmm!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

Do you know what that literature is? I'd love to read it!
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos

Many dozens of the books on boids and other books on general snake keeping. Just do a google search. There is even some real research on the subject of reptile nutrition.

>>Do you know what that literature is? I'd love to read it!
>>-----
>>5.19 BRB
>>10.20 BCI
>>0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
>>0.1 Albino Corn Snake
>>2.8 Leopard Geckos

Hi Jeff,

Thanks. I have no problem feeding my ARB a 100% rodent diet,
although I would imagine young ones in the wild would probably
eat lizards also. According to the nutritional analysis I used, birds and rodents are very similar in fat, protein and calcium content. Still, I think it's great you throw in the occasional fowl meal, there are probably other pros of varying their diet.

I'm not saying no species of snake should get a 100% rodent diet.
In a nutshell, I question whether some species SHOULD eat a 100% rodent diet, even if they can be trained to eat them. So my point about the book is that I think it would be incomplete, if not biased, to have a blurb about the deficiencies of a 100% fish diet, but nothing about a 100% diet of any other single prey item.

Thanks for sharing about your Indigos liking snakes. I'm sure Jack would love one, but so far I haven't found on that would be appropriate, and I can't seem to find a supplier of feeder snakes. He also loves fish. You wouldn't believe how fast he can hone in and pounce on a flopping fish. And I never had to scent the fish with rat smell.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>....I do not have the book with me here in Florida. I do think there is quite a bit of literature that says diets consisting solely of rodents are good for many boids. My Rainbow Boas get mostly rodents with some small chickens for the big ones and hatchling quail for the little ones. When I had Indigos I fed them a highly varied diet. They got lots of road injured Ratsnakes and seemd to like them better than anything else. Some of them would eat toads and they all seemed to eat Leopard Frogs. They only rarely got rodents.
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>
>>>>I don't have the book, but does the Dr. commment on possible dietary deficiencies that arise from a 100% rodent diet for certain species? For Indigos, I would bet my house that Indigos that are fed only farm raised rodents are highly deficient in calcium and protein, and get *way* too much fat in comparison to wild specimens. (I can go into details, but that would probably bore the hell out of everyone.)
>>>>
>>>>Rodents are great and probably make up a large part of many species' diets in the wild. And everyone has the right to decide for themselves what to feed their captive snakes, since there are economic and practicality factors besides species-specific dietary needs. But the economic and practicality factors are what's best for we *humans*, not necessarily what's best for the snake's digestive system. This subject is admittedly a little touchy for me, since I've been criticized for feeding my Indigo lizards and fish. So far all the criticism has been backed up with no evidence, however. All the evidence I've seen supports the diet I feed Jack... that's why I feed him that diet! It costs a lot and is not practical, yes, but for me it's important to mimic his wild diet as closely as possible.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry for the rant...
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Ed,
>>>>>>..Except for some Watersnakes I have never raised a snake entirely on a fish diet. This is a ling to pages from Dr Rossi's book. I found them interesting.
>>>>>>books.google.com/books?id=wukkw-5cTHoC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=snake fish diet deficiency&source=web&ots=e9iJLu6Xg5&sig=1z_kAJILNPvYVQN_U4dBBnrHADs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA81,M1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Waiting for the next fish...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Pouncing on the fish...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yummmm!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

I like how you use photos to illustrate your snake stories! You must always have that camera ready (good for you)! I've often wished I had a camera on me when my snakes did something funny or cute. You never drop the ball.

I like how Jack's head barely stands out from the black enclosure in the first shot (just a little shine), and I love the closeup with its contrast between his dark head and the orange fish. He's clearly enjoying himself!

>>Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.
>>
>>Waiting for the next fish...
>>
>>
>>Pouncing on the fish...
>>
>>
>>Yummmm!!!
>>
-----
Renee
1.0 BRB (Loki)
2.0 amel & anery corns (Foxfire & Daguerre)
0.1 blood python (Duchess, arriving later this month)
1.1 Cats (Nightshade & Cuzzy)

Thanks Renee. I usually have my camera handy when interacting with the snakes, but I ALWAYS have it nearby at feeding time for
Jack. His antics and crazy feeding response always present a good opportunity for photos.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I like how you use photos to illustrate your snake stories! You must always have that camera ready (good for you)! I've often wished I had a camera on me when my snakes did something funny or cute. You never drop the ball.
>>
>>I like how Jack's head barely stands out from the black enclosure in the first shot (just a little shine), and I love the closeup with its contrast between his dark head and the orange fish. He's clearly enjoying himself!
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Never a dull moment with Jack, feeding time is *always* fun. I fed him the first fish, then got distracted by one of my sons. I came back a few minutes later and he was resting his head on the lip of the cage, ready for more. I fumbled the next fish out of the tongs and it fell on the floor. Before I could even react, Jack flew out of the cage onto the floor and pounced on the fish. Had to pick him up and gently put him back in the cage while he was chomping the fish.
>>>>
>>>>Waiting for the next fish...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Pouncing on the fish...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yummmm!!!
>>>>
>>-----
>>Renee
>>1.0 BRB (Loki)
>>2.0 amel & anery corns (Foxfire & Daguerre)
>>0.1 blood python (Duchess, arriving later this month)
>>1.1 Cats (Nightshade & Cuzzy)

A couple of mine do that on feeding day too, but Jack seems to take the cake as Mr. Personality on this site!!
-----
5.19 BRB
10.20 BCI
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
0.1 Albino Corn Snake
2.8 Leopard Geckos