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I have been told that it is not possible to successfully breed Kahl and Sharp boas together. But, I have a Khal Albino and a Sharp salmon that produced some beautiful and healthy babies. Has it been done before and just not talked about, or did I get the wrong info about their incompatibility?

>>I have been told that it is not possible to successfully breed Kahl and Sharp boas together. But, I have a Khal Albino and a Sharp salmon that produced some beautiful and healthy babies. Has it been done before and just not talked about, or did I get the wrong info about their incompatibility?

What is a Sharp Salmon? Sharp Sunglow...

Any Albino morph's in the litter?

Are you positive they are Kahl and Sharp strain respectfully?
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile
Boa Morph's since 2007

1.0 Snow "Khal"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Khal"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow
1.0 Ghost
0.1 Possible Super Hypo
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Khal" Albino
1.0 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Suriname/Columbian cross
0.1 Anerthrystic

all boa constrictors (imperator, constrictor, occidentalis, amarali, etc..) are PHYSICALLY compatible meaning you can breed any boa from the BC family to any other boa from the boa constrictor family and you can produce live, healthy babies.

However, it SEEMS like what you're saying is that you have 2 boas, one that is either a Kahl albino or het for albino, and one Sharp albino or het for Sharp albino. If that is the case, the two lines are NOT genetically compatible on the "albino level" meaning when you breed a Kahl line albino to a Sharp line albino, you will not produce any albino animals. You will produce "normal" appearing animals that are het for both types of albino.

One caveat, the original Sharp animal was bred to a Kahl het to check for compatibility of the genes and the babies were NOT destroyed. They were sold off as 100% hets for Sharp albino. Meaning, MANY of the Sharp albinos (and hets) in existence today could be het for Kahl albino. The only way to know whether your Sharp is or isn't het for Kahl albino is to breed to a known Kahl albino or het... and further muddy the waters

Clear as mud?
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

Copy/paste from an email from Brian Sharp...

"I bred a het Kahl strain male to my albino female, produced 17 babies all normal looking. Because I didn’t want to create a genetic nightmare, I made sure those animals were never used for breeding and sold them as normal, scattered to the four winds in the pet trade."

So according to the man who bred them, they were not sold as het Sharps!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Why would this be a genetic nightmare? There are so many new and exciting things happening in the boa morph world. Why this any worse than any other breeding? I understand that the genetics are like a ladder and some rungs don't match...but something good happened here. They need more respect than that.

We are very careful about any snake that we have brought into our family. Sources were checked directly. We just want to be honest and make sure we get this right.

"Why would this be a genetic nightmare"

Let me tell you why. If you cross these making double hets and someone breeds them your gonna get Sharp and Kahl albinos. You can't always tell the difference of the two so, if you have a customer wanting a Sharp and they grow it up and breed it to a DH Sharp and get no whites in the litter,Not only are they gonna be very unhappy with you and the outcome now they have a whole litter of animals that are possibly het for both that they're now gonna sell to someone that is gonna breed them and then its gonna happen all over again and sooner or later these double hets will find their way back to eachother in another breeding making both Strains of albino and the person who thought they had all Sharps is selling Kahls to someone thats gonna breed that animal to their Sharp animal and not get any whites and so on and so on and so on. This is why this breeding has been left alone by everyone in the boa world the respects the two strains for what they are, Differant and incompatible.

Last line got a little messed up. Should read,

This is why this breeding has been left alone by everyone in the boa world that respects the two strains for what they are, Different and incompatible.

I keep jumping around and I'm sorry. You seem to know about this so if you don't mind let me ask some more.

With no disrespect - this does seem a touchy subject.

So why don't they carry both genes and become het for both strains of albino?

Snake health; the most important to me. I know that out of this clutch there were no slugs or other unfortunate losses. Could this be good to bring in new variation to the snake? or bad?

Is there more "mixing" than people are willing to admit? I know there are questions of what my snakes really are. I'm not sure if its proper to say where they were bought from on the forum due to the subject, but I have no doubt of their honesty.

: Kahl albino female with hypo het sharp albino male.

Once again, I have great respect for both Kahl and Sharp.

We also have all intentions of disclosing this info to the adoptive parents.

It's not that you can't do it, they will breed and you will eventually come out with albinos. The REAL problems is when you do get an albino, Unless you have a magic 8-ball, you CAN'T say for certain whether it's Kahl or Sharp and each of those babies would require a minimum of two breeding trials to see what genes were actually in them. Unless for example your first guess was Kahl and you bred the albino to a known Kahl and got no albinos, then you'd know it was a Sharp (not het for Kahl). Each of these breeding trials would produce more babies that most likely will also have unclear genetics. All that needs to happen to really throw a monkey wrench in someones breeding plans is for two animals known to have genes from the same strain, to both also be het for the other (unknown or ignored). Than any albino's out of that pairing "could" be the other strain. Any animal sold as the wrong strain would mess up the breeding plans of whoever ended up with it.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks - hate to run the subject down.
With so many questions still in my mind, there is now way I would let anyone take home a baby with out letting them know what has happened.

P.S. did not intend to piss anyone off: It wasn't planned!
This did happen because we had a big winter storm and no electricity for days. We kept our snakes alive by pairing them up with alternative warmth. We are just glad everyone is healthy. Gene mess or not, these guys are great pets.

np, this subject rears it's ugly head from time to time.

Yeah, I think bottom line as they would be better off in the pet market than the breeder market.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Where did the parents come from? Or atleast the "Salmon Sharp" male? You need to get to the root of this problem and we need to see more good pix as Larry mentioned below. Bottom line,if thats truely a Salmon het Sharp, there would be no albino's! Period. It's not some crazy new duel strain albino or whatever your thinking it may be and I say that with all respect and not to be a d--k or mean and i'm not upset at all. I'm trying to help you figure this out and thats not going to happen until we know where the male in question came from. I'm off for the eavning but will be back later. Hopefully we'll have some more info and pix. Also can you post pix of the one's you feel are Aneries?

Again,just to clear this up cause sometimes things are read and takin the wrong way,i'm in no way trying to be mean or upset towards you. It's just that it is a touchy subject on both sides for people that breed Kahls and Sharps cause the best thing to do is to keep these Strains as far apart as possible so things don't get too messed up in the future.

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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

You think those are Aneries just by the dorsal saddles?

Its rather obvious which ones could be mistaken for Anery. I just want to see the tails so a real determination could be made.
I actually think I see a little peach type color shining through on the top Anery type Boa- middle of picture,second arrow in diagram,LOL.
Caden I like the diagram,LOL .
. . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

>>You think those are Aneries just by the dorsal saddles?

I know they are the anerys, but I didn't just go by the saddles, Ruben. I look at their whole coloration or their lack of coloration too. Sometimes it's hard to tell when babies are born because they all look grey. But if you're careful observing, you can pick out all the hypos, all the normals, and all the anerys, etc. Also I pointed out the hypos and normals, so use the process of elimination, what else could they be?

I have a buncg of anerys, hypos, and normals, maybe I'm just used to looking at them, I don't know. They are obvious to me. Also I helped Christian sex his ghost litter last year as well, I am familiar with the look of newborns of these mutations.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

I'm still not convinced cause like Larry said, you can see peach in the one you labled anery. If one was an Anery I do agree it would be that one again with all those hypos there should be Ghosts also. I'm not saying your wrong casue we don't have any better pix to go off of but the fact that I can see peach on the one your thinking is an anery and there's no mention of ghosts with all those hypo's doesn't add up. I've seen plenty of litters myself and i've definitely seen litters where the new born colors appear Anery but once they shed they're clearly not. Thats all i'm saying. I'm not mentioning the Snow or Moonglows cause that could just be an odds thing. Everyones entitled to their own opinion and mine is that thats not an Anery untill we see some more pix of the tails and the whole snake but at this point this whole thing is looking like a Hoax for attention so I don't even know if i'd trust a litter pic at this point. You know what I mean?

Dudes, this is a TH litter pic, or a pic of a litter with two dads. It can't possibly be what the guy claims. Those anerys, hypos, normals and albino are obvious to me. I can't help it if you can't see it. It's plain for all to see what's in there.

There could be ghosts, there could be sunglows and there could be snows, there could even be moonglows or snowglows for all you can tell from a partial picture, the genetic potential is there in the pics except the identification of the type of albino. There certainly are anerys, hypos, and albinos of some sort, and normals. I see no peach in the top anery so circle it and post what you think is peach. Show it. No reason there has to be ghosts, snows, sunglows, snowglows or moonglows either, that is the luck of the draw. Each morph produced is the luck of the draw, including ghosts. If you're eye is trained it's plain. Your eye gets trained by working with the babies. You can easily see the difference between the normals and anerys after working with them for a while. You can start to see the red in the saddles of the normals compared to the lack of it in anerys. You'll note that they are not as red as the hypos. You don't need to see a tail to spot an anery after a while.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

They don't "become" double hets because you used a het! You can only make possible hets. That makes the babies salmons het for Kahl possible het for Sharp, and het for Kahl possible het for Sharp. Respectfully, sir, wouldn't it have been better to know these things before making living breathing creatures. They are not even double hets, they are possible hets! It was not necessary to reinvent the wheel and make babies so genetically freaky, that none of us who understand what they are, will buy them. It's better to get your understanding before it's a matter of life and death. Even if you attempt to give them away as pets, they will eventually make their way into the trade somewhere down the line. Boas live a long time, and many get rehomed a few times in their lives. If you're at all concerned about engendering bad karma or the future of the captive boa constrictor biz, don't make anymore, consider them all culls. I cannot believe you are going to send them into the marketplace. It's important to convince you not to.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Well spoken Caden! Also,your right they'd be poss het Sharp and the normals and hypo would be poss het Sharp and 100% het Kahl. I meant to say that but in my first early morning rant I got caught up and was thinking visual to visual. Thanks for clearing that up as that might of just confuzed the poor fellow even more.

WOW! I did NOT know that. Obviously.. lol

Thanks for sharing that!!!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

Thanks for the straight answer, you cleared things up. I couldn't find much info on the subject. Here is a photo of the clutch - 4 albino, 4 hypo and many anery out of 24.

Those could be something very special, indeed.
You're not perpetrating some sort of hoax, are you? LOL
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

First off as already stated, the two line are NOT compatible so those can't be both Sharp and Kahls at the same time.

Now, i've seen this numerous times,where someone bought a Kahl(original line of albino)albino,het or DH etc from Brian Sharp(cause he does breed and sell Kahls more then his strain) and when they sell them they'll post them as a Brian Sharp produced albino. Or they'll just say "forsale is a Brian Sharp albino" leaving out the word produced or produced by. This leads most people to believe they're getting a Sharp Strain albino when they're really getting a Kahl Strain produced by Brian Sharp. Now I don't know if these people are deliberately misleading people or they could've been mislead them selves when buying the parents but i've seen this happen a lot and more so as of the past year or so as the Sharp market is getting a lot bigger.

I'm pretty sure this is what happened here as again, you wouldn't get any whites in the litter had the "Salmon Sharp" in question be an actual Salmon het Sharp STRAIN albino. This was kinda the short and sweet version cause I have breakfast staring at me but I wanted to give my opinion. Nice litter by the way!

Sorry Rueben, but i just wanted to clarify this one statement you made:

"First off as already stated, the two line are NOT compatible so those can't be both Sharp and Kahls at the same time."

This is not quite entirely true because what if by a wee bit chance that Calder's Khal Albino could be 100% Het for Sharp strain albino, and his Sharp Salmon (i'm assuming sharp sunglow)also being 100% het Khal strain albino. In this case, and only this case, will SOME of the babies exhibit both albino genotypes. Actually if you plug in the genetics on the punnet square for a typical dihybrid cross, you will actually get 4 out 16 babies exhibiting both genotypes or roughly 1 out 4 babies. Hope that wasn't too confusing!!

Nick

LOOK AT YOU COMIN OUT OF THE WOODWORKS! If you read my post you'd see I said I gave the short version cause I was about to get my breakfast on and I had a bunch of crap to do today. Where have you been and wheres my babies?LoL

Anyways,ofcourse thats a possility but if he got that animal from a responsable breeder they should've told him that and they should've never let those babies go in the first place. This breeding has already been don with the results out there yet,people still want to do it creating these messes. I'm in no place to tell anyone what to breed or when to breed but if your gonna do it for your own research, keep the babies for yourself and the project and be a RESPONSEABLE BREEDER! Thats all I ask. I think both Strains are fine where thier at.

Nick, call me when you get a chance.

Hey Reuben,

Yup I agree with ya wholeheartedly!! Keep the strains separated to minimize the headache for breeders in the future.

Just wanted to point out, that there is a possibility, for those who genetics is not their forte =)

I'll give you a call tomorrow!

Nick

From what you said your pairing was, you couldn't possibly have produced this litter with visual albinos, all you could produce is hets and possible hets! And there would be no anerys either. This is a triple het litter.

>>First off as already stated, the two line are NOT compatible so those can't be both Sharp and Kahls at the same time.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Welllll........since you ask....

.>

But in all seriousness, Honesty is our middle name (or something else really cheesy like that ;D)

I'm not trying to say your being dishonest. Just that,the seller of your "Salmon Sharp" could've been or misleading or could've been lislead himself or didn't understand what he was getting. Like I said,i've seen it A LOT of times where people sell Brian Sharp produced albinos thinking they were his strain when really they were Kahl strain.

there aren't any Aneries in the litter by the way. Well from what I see in the pic. Those would be normals het Kahl albino. Had there been Aneries,both parents would need to be het Anery and you'd have Ghosts in the litter also. Just trying to help.

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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

If there was Aneries there would be Ghosts with all those hypos.

I can't say that based on the provided picture that those babies are definite anery, based on what is shown they almost look normal. The thread starter did not state anything about neither parent being het for anery and there is clearly no ghost boas in the litter. Aneries look their best as babies and look really silver from the get-go. While there is a chance of producing Sharps and Kahls in the same litter, I believe the odds are VERY small, you may want to play the lottery if you hit those odds. My humble opinion is that the pairing is between a Salmon het. Kahl Albino (produced by Brian Sharp, maybe) and a Kahl Albino. It would be nice to see, find out what the exact ration is and to see pics. that are more detailed. It is okay if you are not sure what you produced, people are always willing to help. What would not be okay would be for someone to sell an animal without fully understanding/knowing the genetics behind it.

I do agree that producing visual albinos in which someone would not be able to identify their genetics is a big no no.

I keep both Sharps and Kahls and mixing the 2 is NOT even a consideration.

That's the luck of the draw. And we didn't see the whole picture either.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

I'd like to see an image of all the babies and some good Macro type pics of representatives of each type of morph produced in this litter. I'm leaning towards the explanation that these are Kahl Albino Boas. If Both parents were also het Anery I suppose there is a possibility of bad odds producing only anery babies but most unlikely. Just seeing this little snip pic isn't really very helpful for identifying anything.
Congratulations on a nice healthy litter. Hopefully you'll figure out exactly what you really do have. The breeders as well as babies.
. . . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

and that's it, no ghosts, no sunglows, no snows, no snowglows. no moonglows?

>>Thanks for the straight answer, you cleared things up. I couldn't find much info on the subject. Here is a photo of the clutch - 4 albino, 4 hypo and many anery out of 24.
>>
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

>>I have been told that it is not possible to successfully breed Kahl and Sharp boas together. But, I have a Khal Albino and a Sharp salmon that produced some beautiful and healthy babies. Has it been done before and just not talked about, or did I get the wrong info about their incompatibility?

The genes are just not compatible genetically, but all boa constrictors are compatible physically! Ha ha ha I see what you thought. lol They can copulate, he can fertilize, and she can ovulate gestate and deliver baby boas, they just can't make albinos with each other. They can make double hets with each other. If you throw the salmon gene in you can call half of them triple hets (het salmon het Sharp het Kahl [yes that's the correct term for salmon, a het has two different alleles at the same locus]).

What you did was just make normal looking babies and salmon looking babies, right? That's all that's possible from your pairing! What you made are triple hets for Kahl sunglow and Sharp sunglow in the same individuals, and double hets for Sharp and Kahl albinos (provided by "Sharp salmon" you mean Sharp sunglow). What you absolutely must now do, is disclose this to everyone who buys a baby.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

I'm not real sure why the Boawoman Caramel Albino/Paradigm/Sharp Albino complex, possibly including the VPI T-positive genetics wouldn't be analogous? I honestly don't understand the genetic relationships with these other albinos.
Help me out on this.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer