Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was asked in an IRC chat, why I don't breed one of my corns (or other colubrids) to my lone Trans Pecos female. Although hybrids are intriguing to me, I highly doubt I can ever do hybrids with snakes. I'm just waiting to go back to Texas to catch a nice male Trans Pecos, or have one of my friends catch me a nice one.

But this lead to an interesting conversation that the Trans Pecos genetic count was different than a corn by 2 genes. So, have they done that much genetic research on colubrids? And is it true on the trans Pecos gene count? If this is all true, I was wondering why they can't DNA sex difficult herps like Heloderma.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

They can. It's just not a matter of importance or priority to the institutions that have the equipment needed considering how much it must cost and the specially trained tech's/scientists needed to run it.

ultrasound is cheaper and faster for heloderma sexing I guess?

corns and rats cross...but the trans pecos are odd...they breed later and hatch later in the year than almost all other rats USUALLY....they grow slower and should not be rushed or overbred or overfed .....

just not cool......

corn everglades......there you go.......

....buy a silver pecos for the one you got.......
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>>ultrasound is cheaper and faster for heloderma sexing I guess?

Interesting. I'll have to ask Applegate if he does it that way. If not pass the info along. ty

>>corns and rats cross...but the trans pecos are odd...they breed later and hatch later in the year than almost all other rats USUALLY....they grow slower and should not be rushed or overbred or overfed .....
>>
>>just not cool......

Thanks, very very good info. My feamle is 3 feet now and I'm not in a rush, and shes not over fed. In fact she took her first mouse not to long ago as she was really hungry. She only ate rat fuzzies. Another thing about her is, she does not like any food that moves to much. Shes rather timid. And often passes on F/T.

>>corn everglades......there you go.......

?????

>>....buy a silver pecos for the one you got.......

I have not looked up all the morphs much as shes not ready. But the axanthic silver blonde is cool. I'm not sure my top pick. But I have to look at the genetics and see what morph begotz what. Shes petty light, and I can not remember what locale she is. My huge black gap one was a bit squirrely. So I had a kid release her where I caught her.

Very odd, I knew nothing about trans pecos until I caught one. I think they are a real nice snake as a pet, and I see lots of morphs already.

Thanks much for all the input
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

That all makes perfect sense. I guess I'm just trying to find someone that can support it was done. Personally, I don't see it.

Thanks
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

It probably could be done, animals of different gene and chromosome counts have been hybridized before.

I think getting a male trans pecos would preferable though.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

Like I said it is mentally fun for me. Would a bloodred add red to a light collor trans pecos?

I was lectured many days about hybrids. Giving lots of time to think about the issue in snakes. I won't do it.

Many thanks
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

Subocs have 2 more chromosomes than most any other colubrid. You have a better chance breeding a hog and a corn.
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South Texas Herps

So you have heard that too.

Again, I AM NOT interested. I just wanted to check that info. And maybe who did it.,

They are a very cool snake on their own. I hope to add a few.

Thanks.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

A Horse has 64 chromosomes.
A Donkey has 62 chromosomes.

A Mule or Hinny is a hybrid of the two, and has 63 chromosomes.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

Ok, my conclusion is a definite maybe!

I was more interested if some university was doing a lot of dna mapping on herps.

During this thread I started to think of the 1 guy from Jurassic Park, with his chaos theory.

Funny thing is I was about to trade all my herps for some small parrots. I doubt I will. I kept my bloodred corns, as I like red red red corns. And when I caught this little creamier trans pecos with HUGE eyes (suboc) I got a bit hooked on them. I like the buttery colors myself on those. I guess called blondes. Very cool snakes.

My bird were mostly rescues and were bonded to wrong species. Birds are not herps, and I do not want to great the bond. And they've never bred, I just like watching them play.

As for herps, I want the brightest bloodred, and if I get into trans pecos, I'll work to learn the morphs.

Thanks much.

Birds are on my site
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

my understanding is that sales of lizards, particular bearded dragons, frilled dragons, and water dragons, skyrocketed after the first movie.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

in Lemony Snicket. Petunia was her name. I bet sales of those went up after that movie was released. Pretty funny when Jim Carrey was asked to "milk" it.

.
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South Texas Herps

No - more like 99.99% infertile.
I believe there are something like 60 documented cases of fertile mules/hinneys in the last hundred years.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

molyworld.net/aa/ferthyb.htm
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

good luck, let me know how it works out.
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South Texas Herps

That is the worst source you could have found.Check out this link (http://molyworld.net/aa/cross15a.htm). It is the domesticated/wild pig cross. Look at the image of the "wild pig" it is not Sus scrofa , is it Tayassu tajacu (a Javalina), which is not in any way related to the genus Sus. Granted I agree 1 in 1000 mules may be fertile (good luck producing viable offspring with them), but seriously, just because someone has a website does not mean that they are credible.
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South Texas Herps

did the hybrid pigs produce great chops and bacon?

OK, just kidding but it is funny how a thread can really run on related topics to something totally different, but still interesting.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I just looked for the website that had the info and was the most to the point.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

>>That is the worst source you could have found.Check out this link (http://molyworld.net/aa/cross15a.htm). It is the domesticated/wild pig cross. Look at the image of the "wild pig" it is not Sus scrofa , is it Tayassu tajacu (a Javalina), which is not in any way related to the genus Sus. Granted I agree 1 in 1000 mules may be fertile (good luck producing viable offspring with them), but seriously, just because someone has a website does not mean that they are credible.
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>> South Texas Herps

I hate to play devil's advocate here but the question wasn't whether they could produce viable young the question was can they breed.
It is proven that animals with a chromosome count differential of 2 can breed.
So, that answers that part of the question.
It probably isn't likely to happen but it has been proven possible in other animals which means there is a potential of success with snakes. Especially with the "ease" at which different species of snakes are crossed. From corn/kings to burmese/balls..etc..etc..etc
Viable young isn't/wasn't the question.
Should it be done wasn't the question either.
Every single person on this forum could have a different view/opinion/belief on that question.

And I thought I would add this little bit of food-for-thought:
Just because WE post on a forum it doesn't make US any more credible then anyone else. Website, forum or whatever.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

...Snakes do. Not just two, as someone had mentioned. Subocs have 40 and Corns have 36. Heck, even the only congeneric to TPRSs, Bogertophis rosaliae, has a different karyotype than its closest relative (B. rosaliae has 38 chromosomes). To my knowledge, there has never been a hybrid Suboc.

One of the reasons you can't use ex-situ conservation techniques to breed intrageneric (Castor) Canadian and European beavers, for example, is because they have a different chromosome count. And I'm sure, at this point, there have been a few people who have tried to breed subocs with other snakes and tried in vain.

I've been asked to breed TPRSs with Bajas (not sure that I ever will or even want to)...I think, if Subocs have ANY chance to hybridize, it'd only be with Bajas. Bajas are the only other colubrid with lorilabial or subocular scales.

DR
Suboc.com

I did not mean this to be such a heated debate, but I guess that goes with the talk of hybrids.

I guess I should have been more clear, by breed I meant viable babies, even if they are not able to reproduce. As for as breeding, On tv I saw a moose mount a statue of a moose. Some things with try to breed with anything. Especially late Saturday nights!

I was more interested in, if they really have done that much research to know a chromosome count. I'll take the answer as yes.

As for viable off spring, it was state that someone must have tried by now. And I would think vigorously, for a pay off. That is just logical. And I'm not giving any opinion on it, just that if it sounds great to make money, there will be people lined up.

As for me, I think you've answered my questions, and I thank you. My lone suboc will remain by herself until I figure out her time to breed. Then I get a nice normal, or maybe a morph.

I just happen to like the suboc now after I caught a few. The eyes are just so great looking on that head.

Thanks
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I wasn't saying whether it should or shouldn't be done - just mentioning that a difference in chromosome count does not necessarily mean they can't.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

>>...Snakes do. Not just two, as someone had mentioned. Subocs have 40 and Corns have 36. Heck, even the only congeneric to TPRSs, Bogertophis rosaliae, has a different karyotype than its closest relative (B. rosaliae has 38 chromosomes). To my knowledge, there has never been a hybrid Suboc.
>>
>>One of the reasons you can't use ex-situ conservation techniques to breed intrageneric (Castor) Canadian and European beavers, for example, is because they have a different chromosome count. And I'm sure, at this point, there have been a few people who have tried to breed subocs with other snakes and tried in vain.
>>
>>I've been asked to breed TPRSs with Bajas (not sure that I ever will or even want to)...I think, if Subocs have ANY chance to hybridize, it'd only be with Bajas. Bajas are the only other colubrid with lorilabial or subocular scales.
>>
>>DR
>>Suboc.com

now I'm a fan of some "hybrids" (I use the term hybrid loosely for my corn/emoryis) but I just don't think anything mixed with a suboc would look right. Some snakes just should not be mixed.
Thanks for the information.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

sss
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com