Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just a few quick questions if anyone can help out, thank you in advance.

1) Does the appetite of cali kings seem to calm down as winter comes in?

2) For some reason my cali king will eat mice backwars. Is this common and is it something I need to worry about? It seems that the snake just takes down the mouse pending how the snake grabs the mouse. Head first or rear fist seems to make no difference.

I have a WC Cal King which is probably an '07 and is now about 30 inches. She was feeding really well on F/T last summer then started refusing meals on and off, and finally all togther. Sometime in November she got out but luckily I found her again in late March. The house was cold enough in certain areas for her to brumate and she hadn't lost much weight over the 3 or 4 months. She began feeding well again immediately but has become picky again in the last few weeks. She just shed and I'll try her again today but looks like she'll have to go down again in the coming winter.

Hope that offers perspective.

Brad

I have noticed, and this applies to most forms of kingsnakes and milk snakes, that by August or September the larger snakes will start refusing to eat. At that time they will still accept lizards, but seem to lack interest in mice. This does not apply to juveniles, they will eat all year, and also does not apply to some adults. I have no idea why some of them will shut down, while others continue to feed until October or November (My 5-ft Florida King eats every month of the year). My advice would be to offer fence lizards if you live in an area where they are available. Otherwise, turn off the heat and let the snake brumate till January. It will be hungry by then. Hope that helps.

Brian Hubbs

One of my WC male Cal King does that - he stops feeding in September whether or not he is cool, and then in spring, will only take fuzzies and only sparingly.

My adult MBK slows down in september but does not go completely off feed until I brumate him, and then does not eat again until after eggs are laid - he eats absolutely nothing coming out of brumation. First brumation I had him (acquired as adult) - I tried live to see if he would take those, he would kill them but not eat them.

Both eat readily from May through August.
-----
Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

Why do people refuse to accept the new name of Western Black kingsnake (as used in Stebbins)? It's WBK, not MBK. lol I'm just curious. Is it force of habit? Or rebellion?

MBK is the established trade name for them. I don't see a reason to change it.

I believe Stebbins also referred to Rosy Boas with their historic name, 3 Lined Boa, but no one calls them that either.
-----
Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

I'm with you on this one Funky. It will always be a Mexican black king to me. This king is also called a desert black king in Markels 1995 kingsnake book. What's the reason for wanting to take "Mexican" out of the name in the first place? I can see changing scientific names, but not well established common names.

I think it depends on the individual disposition of the CalKing in question as to whether they slow down for winter or not. My friend's got a captive bred Cal King that eats all winter. I have 3 wild caught Cals. 2 of them I've been through at least one winter with. My Santa Monica Mtn female will stop eating around Sept or Oct and resume in Feb. My male Chatsworth Cal will stop in November, and resume around the same time, but he is also younger (I'm guestimating an '06--- found him quite small last spring). My 3rd Cal ('07? found this spring --- a very small desert phase female) ate ravenously up until a few weeks ago, but has slowed down, and strikes & hisses @ her food before consuming several hours later.

reako45

So far all here are baseing their opinions on the assumption that your conditions are normal AND EQUAL to eachothers. In both cases that is wrong.

The reality is, snakes feed under conditions that support them to feed.

If your individuals stop feeding, its simply because your conditions do not allow it to feed.

In nature, these snakes move to place to place as needed to allow feeding for as long as needed. And as long as they can. They are not stuck in a small cage and only exposed to that set of conditions. So YES, if your individuals stop feeding in the fall, that tells you your cage conditions are marginal at best. If they feed well into winter, then that tells you they have conditions that allow that(better??).

And YES, snakes are just like us, they are individuals. We all know they come in different colors and patterns, and we all know that they have different personalities. But theres more, they also are individual in behavior and ability to cope. ITS important to understand, they are attempting to cope with our unnatural conditions.

This concept is very easy to understand. We are taught that only a small percentage of neonates survive yearly. Depending on species and condition, normally a small percentage. Say 10% or less of every new generation survives. What most do not understand is, these offspring are not only physically different(color pattern etc) But also behaviorally different. That insures that there are some that survive under varying conditions. They have a range of abilities to survive natural selection(to produce a phenotype)

Consider, each and every year in nature is DIFFERENT, it is wet, dry, drought, floods, none of the above(normal) High prey loads, different prey loads, high predator loads, different predator loads, varying ground cover. And such things as habitat destruction, either natural or mademade.

If their behaviors were EXACTLY alike, that would open up a strong possibility of complete reproductive(recruitment) FAILURE. Their individualism is to not allow a complete failure.

So yes, they are different in captivity, even under the same basic conditions.

But in nature, they HAVE the ability to move and find warmer places, more humid places, drier places, places with food, places with safety from the weather extremes, ETC. In captivity, most seem to lock them down in one set of conditions then say, yes my bonedong snake DOES THIS. Well your right, it does that, but only because it cannot do anything else.

The vast majority of southwestern snakes(cal kings) foraging season is aug thru Dec. Then they move into reproductive season which is, Dec. thru aug. Of course this is with sexually mature adults. Others may behave differently.

If during that time its to cold, they go down and cease some activity, if its too hot and dry in the summer, they will also do that same. Those are considered bad conditions. Inbetween those, they pick and choose and learn to find the most suitable conditions they can find. Except in your cages where they have no ability to fix what is wrong. (which means, figure out what their needs are, then let them pick them)

Any questions, Cheers

I agree with what you said for the most part, however, stomach content analysis of adult museum specimen kingsnakes show a lack of rodents from October to February. Instead, lizards made up the bulk of the contents. What do you do with that info?

I'd say you have a great handle on what kings do in captivity and the reasons they do it, but you really need to talk to the academics and read some papers to get the full story sometimes...

I made an error (how unusual). The study I was referring to found mammals in the stomachs of kingsnakes every month but December and January. So, I guess in December they forage for lizards, right?

in south Brewster county they probably do
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

They(the studies) are normally about one population over a SHORT period of time. Then WE(and you) apply the word "THEY" which means all. In this case all cal kings or all getula kings, or all kings period. Over their entire range.

When considering "They" there is a range of habitats and elevations and temperature influences, so exactly what "they" do varies within these conditions.

With that in mind, what "they" do also varies, year to year on one location.

Then God, you placed your own words(rodents) in this equation, you were concerned with rodents. They normally cycle prey types due to availability. Normally rodents are a mid summer prey item, and lizards and snakes are included at other times of the year. or visa versa or versa visa. Different locals work differently to achieve the same results, so they do not care if rodents or lizards or snakes are the bulk of their diet. Or at what time of the year they get them. "THEY" simply need to get them. They need to achieve the support to exsist and hopefully recruit.

So God, I do not see what rodents has to do with this. Cheers

Actually, the study was on Cal Kings in jars in museums (lots of museums). The reason you didn't understand my words about rodents was because you are only an Apostle (a very wise Apostle, but still only an Apostle). The words of God are difficult to understand for most people, even Apostles. Peace. BTW, I need 100 large mice. Please save them for me. I will purchase at end of next week. will gold work for payment? We have lots of it here in cloud-land.

Are those the coins you have to jump to get, while avoiding rolling barrels?
-----
Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

That information is out of context for this conversation. As there is no actual supporting information to go by. As we discussed in one of our god spanking the apostle meetings, you can only learn so much from dead snakes in jars. In this case, the information has no meaningful context. That is, were the winters wet, cold, hot, dry, etc? where the individuals, adults, in reproductive condition, juvis, etc? Where they from areas where there is an abundance of a particular prey type, rodents, lizards, snakes, insects, etc? You see god, without this information and more, the actual contains of their stomachs is only a basic piece of information. And that is, kingsnakes seem to feed or rodents or lizards(from gods own words) 12 months of the year. By association, every year over their entire range, hmmmmmmmm I am sure that is not right(a guess from a lowly apostle) I am positive(as a apostle can be) that on super cold winters and inland at higher elevations, there are dormate periods where those local populations do not feed every month of the year. As least on some years. See what I mean God.

God(not you, another god) do I love discussing this with you, thank you oh benevelent one(yea U).

Oh by the way, I was just told we are going to hades, with all this god talk, then I mentioned, we are on a snake forum, you know, adam and eve and the apple. The snake was the devil. So Hubbs, what are YOU????(the devil I am guessing)Cheers

I see no religious context here, we're talkin' bout' snakes. We are certainly not going to get into a discussion of fables or make believe places where some people supposedly go, invented by people who thought the world was flat...What about my mice?