Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey how is everyone, i have a few questions for the garter experts having to do with breeding.

i guess what i am looking for is info on what (if any) type breed more than once a year, what size clutch can be expected, also how big they can get...

when it comes to garters i know there are many sub species and the one i am most familiar with is the eastern garter, those are the only ones that lived where i grew up in MASS. ive had a W/C give birth to 11 babies when i was young, do all garters give birth live or just the eastern?

the reason i am asking is i have a friend who has an eastern indigo snake, and he feeds them anoles and glodfish. i was looking into the possibbility of breeding garters to offer as feeders to his indigo. thats why i was wondering what type gets the biggest and also if any type has more than one clutch per year.

i am great full for any and all input anyone can provide. thanks
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-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

Welcome.

Ah, gosh. I don't know what to say. Speaking for myself, I love my garters and cannot imagine using them as feeders. It's a thought I don't like and don't condone. Good luck in getting the info you seek.

mk

Uh... I don't like the idea...

I know everything has to eat... But when there are other options I don't like it. And CB baby garters seem to me to be expensive for feeders. There are lots of people who pay money for garters believe it or not.

Oh and baby garters are very small... A whole little may not serve as a single meal for an adult indigo.

I am sorry. Litter, not little.

i thought of that too, the size of babies and how long it will take to raise them to an decent size. and cost also might prove to be to expensive to be practical. i am currently in the gathering info stage, and if all of the "potential problems" prove to be problems then i will forget the whole thing. however as of right now i can only see how this could potentially work, that is assuming things such, how many snakes can be produced, and how quickly they grow... this is the kind of info i am looking for at the moment, and if i learn the answers to be close to what i am hoping for i might try it on a small scale.

thank you for your post and any further comments you might have!
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

yeah i understand your point in not wanting to see that done, however im sure there are there are people who feel the same way about rats and mice. there is a good chance that my idea wont work i am (at the moment) just gathering information.

but thank you very much for showing respet and wishing my luck, i already see posts on this thread that that are rather insulting. so even if you disagree thank you for for being respectful!!
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

That is the most retarded post I have ever read.having owned eastern indigos myself.I have never heard of any of the breeders feeding thier indigo snakes as part of thier everyday diet.I know some vary thier diet but never snakes.It cracks me up that you have to pay $100 for a permit and they will give it to anybody.No consideration for the welfare of the snake.They just want to get thier $100.

That is the most retarded post I have ever read.

im a little at a loss here how you come up with a statement like that? i feel my post was 100% legitimate. but if you feel that strong about why the need to insult me? there are plenty of way to express the fact that you disagree, or simply enplane how your experience showed differently. that also will prevent you from sounding like a cocky arrogant "know it all"..... now granted yes, i did come here looking for information, from those who know, that will help me decide weather my idea will work or not. if you dont want to help me then i just assume you dont, and keep you insults to yourself. i cam here with good intention not wanting to anger or upset anyone, and i ask you treat me with the same respect
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

I do know a breeder who fed his indigo's a varied diet including regularly rat snakes and leopard frog. From his experience the snakes were the prey item his specimens preffered.

I am not saying that this original post was tactfully done but it was a intellectual inquiry based on valid data. On the same note most indigo breeders that I have known did not feed their specimens a diet of primarily rodents. Normally they fed them a extremely varied diet.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Who is this "breeder" .I know just about all of them.At least the ones that know what they are doing.I equate this with the people who release burms into the wild in florida.Do some research before you start asking silly questions.Have you ever even saw a baby indigo.A newborn could eat 30 baby garters in one sitting.I mean really.You kidding me?

Please read your posts before posting them.

I would never presume to know every Gila Monster breeder who "knows what they are doing" just because I know and do business with one of the five or so permit holders in CA.

I won't dignify the Burm comment with response.

I have done research on all the sub/species I keep as well as close to 30 years of reading herp literature and keeping/breeding most types of animals including many herps.

I have seen both babie indigo's and the parents that produced them. You are being childish assuming the original question was about using baby garters instead of partially grown garters. You also seem to be assuming that the goal of the question was to make garters a sole diet when in reality they were merely being explored as a possible source for adding snakes to the diet.

If the question pisses you off then just say so and let everyone know you think it is wrong. Don't sit there trying to mischaracterize the question as non-academic or purposeless.

Personally I will not subject the breeder I know to a floodgate of abuse because someones nose got bent out of shape. If people wanted to find out who they were I do not expect they would have any trouble. Currently the breeders primary focus is in other sub/species and I'll have to double check whether he is still even working with indigo's.

Sincerely,

Sean
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Well that told me absolutely nothing.Use your head and think before you post.Because if you really really think about the original question.You would understand why it makes no sense.Non feeding corn snakes makes sense.commom sense

Only if you are talking about using only baby snakes as feeders.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Because if you really really think about the original question.You would understand why it makes no sense.

i was wondering what you meant by this? i have reread both this post and my original post many time now and i cant figure out why my post makes no sense. could you please be more specific about what in my post makes no sense, that i might have a chance to better explain.

also Non feeding corn snakes makes sense.commom sense what does this mean?

now to respond to what i can... Sean is right i think, i kinda have the feeling you are missing what i am trying to get at and i also feel like you are making many assumptions.... however that might be partly my fault i am not very good at explaining things the way i want to. i am not a writer by any means, and perhaps its just my english grammer that is confusing. either way maybe you should ask a few question yourself, to get a better understanding of what the topic is about before making your assumptions, and ridiculing others... i still dont know what doesnt make sense in my post.
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

you boast quite a bold statement there, i do not doubt that you know many reputable breeder, but to claim you know ALL of the breeders who "know what they are doing" is equivalent to claiming to be superman... sorry i had to throw in a ridiculous analogy after the burm comment.
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

No disrespect, But posting a question like this here, would be the equivalent of posting a similar question about feeding pythons on a gerbil forum.

I would not anticipate too many friendly replies.

Regards,
Wayne
Dances With Reptiles

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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
0.1.0 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment (seven egg clutch!)
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Hets
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Red Phase Eastern Garter red and white stripes
0.0.1 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake
0.0.6 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbons
0.0.16 Thamnophis sirtalis - newborn Eastern Garter babies 7/11/08
0.0.17 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic Scott Felzer stock.
1.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis CB "Flame" & Melanistic Scott Felzer (R.I.P Magma You are missed little one)
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis California Red Sided
1.2.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue) 2 females recently aquired.
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
1.1.3. Green Anole "Crystal" & "Chris" WC dropping eggs fast!
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

your right, thats a good point that i did not fully consider... i apologize if i have upset or offended anyone.

i guess i was more looking at the fact that there are many type of animals that are kept both as pets and also offered to other animals as prey, so why would this be different. i knew there was a chance of getting responses like this, i just didnt expect to get ONLY responses like this, and again i apologize for offending anyone
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

I apologize for the rude responses that you have received. There is no need for that. Maybe you'll have better luck posting your question in the Feeder Food Discussion forum under general topics.

Hey Stephen,
I dont raise garter snakes, but have seen thousands of fresh babies in the field, & can tell you that they are some of the smallest babies out there. They only have one litter a year & the litters arent that big compared to other types. It would cost you a fortune to keep enough adults to produce enough babies for feeding, then growing the babies to the size needed I just dont see it being worth it. One thing you might consider is buying wholesale baby corn snakes, there are plenty of dealers who are only in it for the money & could care less about what one dones with the snakes they buy from them.
Sorry you didnt get more helpful replies to your post on this forum. While I could never feed snakes to snakes, I dont think ones post should be called "retarded" because they ask questions about it, just like I dont call anyones post retarded when they talk about or show thier garter snakes eating frogs or toads when its not needed. They are herps too, so why is one ok & not the other?

Dan

You could post a wanted ad for baby snakes that refuse to eat, you would get a better deal on them.

Dan

Saagbay or Steve,
I am certainly not going to call you or your post retarded, not because I have a problem with that "language" or not because I'm condemning Tom for using it, I'm definately not that politically correct, lol, at least Tom is being honest about expressing his oppinion, and it is still a free country, and a semi-free forum, but I think if you really do some homework, you will see that your post really in fact isn't very legitimate my friend. I can't imagine it is going to be even remotely cost effective either way. You would probably get more grams/dollar using corn snakes as feeders, and even so why in the world would you feel the need to throw money away when you can feed rodents, quail, chicks, or even anoles, and fish for pennies on that dollar still? Further more I don't understand why anyone would not want to get their snakes (including Idigos) to feed on F/T rodents and/or birds, and if they do, which with a little effort and scenting there is no reason this can't be achieved, why on earth you would feel the need to vary the diet when it is complete nutrition, especially if supplimented with calcium/vitamin?
Go to indigosnakes.com would be a good start, I think you just accidentally stumbled into the wrong forum.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

Rodents are complete nutrition only for species whose natural prey is of a very similar nutritional makeup to rodents.

Just like feeding nothing but certain fish can cause detrimental health conditions in some sub/species(including some garters) you can similarly run into health effects by feeding too much of other type of prey. Just ask the Boa/Python forums about what happens when you switch from a diet of Rats to a diet of Rabbits or Guinea Pigs. Each sub/species out there has specific dietary needs. It is one thing to supply enough nutrition for survival and breeding but it is something else to supply what is optimal for the health of the snake. While scenting is great for getting snakes to eat what is convenient for us it is actively working against what their biology is telling them they need.

I wholeheartedly think that other forums are where he should inquire about the snake prey issue but it is incorrect to say that the reasons for the inquiry were anything but in the interest of his snakes best health.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

biochemically speaking, what specifically are you going to get nutritionally from a garter snake that you would not get from rodents?
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

Not garter snake singly but snakes in general and more specifically snakes of a type similar to those in the indigo's natural environ's.

Too answer your question vastly different ratio's of nutrients. In the macro sense ratio's of fat's, proteins, calcium.

I'm not saying it is the ideal as an ingredient of diet being examined but I am recognizing the logical basis of the question and the information that leads to it.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

n/p

seriously if you have a comment that is relevant then make it.

I have no problem with someone disliking an idea or being pissed at me over something but at least use some intellectual honesty with the argument/debate.

There are countless examples of dietary changes having significant effects on animals health. I don't feel like doing a laudry list but a few are rice vs corn in mamals, grass vs weeds vs starthistle in equines, grass/straw vs grain in goats/sheep, fish vs rodent in reptiles(particularly aquatic species), oil content for mamals, rabbit vs rat vs guneapig in large snakes, etc....

All of these are reasons why we should closely examine what we feed our animals instead of just doing what is most convenient for us as keepers.

The friend that stephen was talking about with the indigo honestly is not concerned about the price but is concerned with what will keep his snake as healthy and happy as possible.

Hope this clears up what I was saying.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Alright, I am sorry about the retarded comment. Caught me in a bad mood today.And to think I am actually on vacation!Anyway, There is no scientific evidence to back up your clain what so ever.Varied diets have never been proven to be useful.It's just a opinion.Some say fatty liver disease this and that.But it has NEVER been proven.I fed my indigos rodents only.They never were obese or unheathly.
Indigos and garters are very similar in thier eating habits.They eat a lot and poop a lot.Both will eat any chance they get in the wild.Thier prey does not contain much fat.With mice you cannot feed them as often.My conclusion is that it is a lot of hassle for very little if any benefit.

I noticed you never posted any of this on the indigo forum.Why not?There are some extremely helpful people on that forum.

Thanks for the explanation.

The reason it was not posted in the indigo forum is that neither myself or Stephen own indigo's. The topic came up in a different forum where Stephen's friend with the indigo was talking about nutritional concerns and native feeding habit hypotheses. It was in this discussion that snake versus lizard prey came up and the topic of feeder snakes was first introduced.

It was in response to that discussion(feeder snakes) that Stephen came to the garter forum to ask about the relevant traits in garters(breeding frequency, litter size, etc...). So to make a long story short he was only following up on a specific portion of a off topic discussion in another forum.

I myself just ended up in the discussion because I was in the other forum and I used to keep garters myself.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

thank you for that sean...

i would also like to add that yes this whole idea started with indigo snakes, however there are many other snake species that will prey on other snake, for example king snake and bull snake... now i never heard of anyone offering "feeder snakes" before, that led my to ask my self the question "why not?". i saw a problem and am searching a solution. now if in my research i come to find that its its not worth doing, either due to cost, or just proves to be difficult. i simply wont do it... however if everything work out the way i think i can, i dont see why i wouldnt

i didnt mention before because i though it was irrelevant for what i was looking for, but i have a co-working that has a large bull snake i know for sure he would be interested in getting all the feeder mice, rats, squirrels, rabbits, chit monks, lizards, toads, frogs, and yes even snakes....

with 2 customers right off the bat that leads me to believe there is enough market. now before anyone else jumps down my throat i fully understand that there is a possibility that the cost per snake i would have to charge could be too expensive for "feeders" that is all part of answers i am looking for.

also, as i have stated before no one else provides "feeder snakes" and some of you might argue there is a very good reason for that. I, in my research, am hoping to either fully understand why there are no feeder snake, or find a solution as to why it doesnt work and make it work....

ohh and one last thing i know that baby garter have been mentioned many time here, but as in all prey items, they come in many sizes!!! that was the reason for questions such as "how fast do they grow" and "what type of garters get the biggest"....

im sorry that this turned out to be so sour, i have chose to look into garters snake for this because i have kept garter snake when i was young. from my experience they are easy to keep, because they dont have much heat requirements, and they have themselves have diets of a variety of prey items...
-----
-Stephen-
-Step-
-Steve Lightning-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
1.0 col redtail boa (Switch, formally known as Dixie)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Saphira)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--Brazilian rainbow boas
2 or 3 more? maybe a breeding trio or two pair
-- something for the wifey... my list got to big...

Your friend is feeding goldfish and anoles to an indigo? Those are perhaps the two WORST food items to be offering. Anoles are almost all wild caught and carry parasites which could be tranferred to the indigo. Feeder goldfish are treated with chemicals which are harmful to snakes. It doesn't take much "research" to find these things out. The lack of intelligence in your selection of food items for a $1K snake is astonishing. Plenty of people feed their indigos nothing but rodents, which are nutritionally complete.

Tim

Third Eye

Well in the inerest of accuracy I should mention that the lizards (I don't remember if anoles or not) that he feeds are kept frozen for a period to kill off any potential parasites. Similarly I don't think it was feeder goldfish he was using but rather the normal pet versions(but I may be wrong there). It doesn't mean they were not dosed with chemicals but it does make it less likely(or lower doses). I am also not sure if he keeps them himself for a period beforehand to flush their systems.

You raised some very valid points one of which I know was adressed but one which I do not know. Do you know of any parasites transferable through digestion that survives a period of freezing? If so then I'm sure he would like to know what it is so he can change his current practices.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

My old male.got rid of him because I needed money.Still regret it.

That's a gorgeous specimen!
I'd regret having gotten rid of him also but life does unfortunately intervene at times. Thanks for posting your pic of him.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Wow, very nice looker!!!
-----
Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

Sean,
Do Indigos eat snakes exclusively in the wild? no, they eat anything they can catch, same as a garter, so why would they "need" to eat snakes in captivity. What would they be missing in a rodent and/or bird diet that a snake meal would supplement? I think the intentions of trying to duplicate natural diet and enviroment are good, but differentiate between what you percieve as ideal, and what the snakes basic "needs" are to thrive in captivity. A rodent/bird diet with or without supplimental cal/vit, is nutritionally superior to the varied diet that one would try to duplicate, albiet good intentioned.
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

I agree with most of your points and I hope I did not give the impression of advocating a all snake diet. My only concern with your points is the assumption that all rodent/bird is optimal. Even just within rodents as food you get different results depending on which rodent you are feeding the snake. Case in point is rabbits and guineapigs where one will fatten up underweight snakes but tends to cause obesity(and it's effects) while the other tends to promote more muscular lean specimens.

I do not know the exact nutritional requirements of indigo's, and am not sure if that research has even really been adequately done, but I would be cautious of eliminating a natural prey item from the menu without good cause. Especially when they show a strong interest in the food type.

I'm not saying that garters should be used for food but I have not seen any research that would preclude the question.

Thank you sincerely for providing a courteous and thoughtful response.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Sean,
I'm here only to make friends, not enemies. It's good conversation, but IMHO anything other than rodents or birds with rodents being first choice, doesn't make any sense to me.
I have all my baby garters on day old pinkies within 2-4weeks and then they never see a fish the rest of their life, period. Heck I even feed rodents that my snakes refuse to my turtles as a treat, they love them, they are like my garbage disposals. Occationally I feed chicks to male corn and balls, just because I'm cheap and they aren't picky or making eggs anyway. Moderate, occational use of supplements doesn't hurt either, key word moderate.
Obesity is more quantity related, Jared lost weight eating subs, but if he ate 5 foot longs a day he would be wearing his old pants again.
Seriously this natual prey, varied diet stuff just doesn't hold up as "nessesary", and that has been proven over and over again, by many, many people for a long, long time now, so why even waste time "thinking" about it.
Personally, it's also a bit insulting to suggest garters as feeders, they aren't junk snakes or just beginner snakes, they are some of the best, most intelligent, just as indigos are. Yes some would say the same about feeder rodents but they aren't on this forum,lol
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Jeff Benfer

1.0 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.1 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.2 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 Okeetee Pantherophis guttatus

LOL I hear the forum comment.

I don't view garters as trash or beginner snakes. I've even been considering getting back into them in the next few years, limit one new project per year, epecially with some of the morphs that were not available when I kept garters last. That being said much of my life I grew up on/arround farms and I do not have a problem with any species being made use of as food. Even with my favorite species, rainbow boa's, I'd be fine with being used as feeders. Heck it might be usefull for selective breeding programs. I don't personally see it that different from shipping off bunches of babies wholesale as I do not hold any illusions about how many survive to the pet stores and further how many actually survive the pet store itself.

That's just me however and I do appreciate that people are different and the idea may be, and obviously was, offensive to some people.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

After reading this thread almost in its entirety I have to agree with most of what has already been said concerning baby garters. I am now dealing with the dilema of finding food items to feed baby Black Neck Garters that were born 2 weeks ago. The only food items they seem to be interested in are baby frogs and toads. They won't even look at feeder fish. My suggestion is if you are looking for low maintenance feeder snakes, consider corn snakes. Easy to breed, easy to get them large enough, way less headaches and good luck!!!
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1:1 Heterodon nasicus (western hognose)
1:1 Lampropeltis getula splendida (desert kingsnake)
1:0 Lampropeltis triangulum celaenops (new mexico milksnake)
0:1 Lichanura trivirgata (desert rosy boa)
1:0 Hypsiglena torquata deserticola (nightsnake)
2:0 Pain in the ass cats
1:0 Golden lab
2:1 kids

Some people use pretty pricey feeders for their Indigos.

These are not my pictures just thought it seemed fitting to show.

Yep thats a green tree python.