Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I thought up of some more questions that I wanted to ask:

1) If Leo's originated from the Middle-East....then wouldn't sand substrate be okay?

2) How many of you fellow members actually tried sand and had your leo die due to impaction? I'm just curious on the toll/numbers of it actually happening.

3)Does the moist hide box stay on the cooler side of the tank or the hotter side?

Exactly, part of their natural range consists of sandy dunes in India and Pakistan.I love using sand, but I know that there are risks when using it with hatchling-juveniles...It is best to eliminate as many threats as possible, but I have only heard of perhaps one or two instances that an adult leopard gecko died from sand impaction....and this was not even 100% verified(could have been made up). This goes with the deeply heated debate of live plants in enclosures with reptiles. Many people say absolutly never, while others' pleasure comes from making an enclosure resemble the natural foliage and habitat as much as possible to stimulate behavior.

Personally I use sand, and love it compared to turf, paper, coconut, and "jungle blend".

The moist box should be placed on the warm side of the tank, this will perpetuate the effectivness and longevity of refills in the moist box. More heat would allow the water to saturate the air and create humidity. - personally, I have been keeping/breeding leopards for a decade and have never used moist boxes. If the humidity in the room is near 35-50% it should be fine without one. Anything below 20% def needs a moist box

The key words are "Rocky Desert" here.

As for the consequences, I have seen clearly defined purple intestines thanks to "safe" sand of the same color personally. (Why is it always purple?)

If you have a strong stomach and a hardened heart, a simple internet search of "gecko sand impaction necropsy" will provide many dissections.

As a rule, babies and juvis never on sand. The debate rages on about adults. There is always some risk, simple put because we cannot possibly recreate the exact environment they live in. Do you keep a supply of scorpions on hand, for instance?

IMHO, why even bother with the risk, not matter how small? If you can eliminate it, why not? Papertowels, unglazed tile, reptile carpet or turf, all these other options are widely available. I believe one person here even did a roughened plaster and painted it to look like sand!

The key words are "Rocky Desert" here.

As for the consequences, I have seen clearly defined purple intestines thanks to "safe" sand of the same color personally. (Why is it always purple?) ------------the right sand should always be researched....playground sand is actaully one of the safest believ it or not.

If you have a strong stomach and a hardened heart, a simple internet search of "gecko sand impaction necropsy" will provide many dissections. ------------true, but most are juvies and I do agree that it should never be a substate for young geckos

As a rule, babies and juvis never on sand. The debate rages on about adults. There is always some risk, simple put because we cannot possibly recreate the exact environment they live in. Do you keep a supply of scorpions on hand, for instance? ----------I'm certainlt not stating that it's safer than paper towles
and carpet, but vivariums are my passion. They bring behavior out of animals that would not be expressed in otherwise drab and "fake" setups.

IMHO, why even bother with the risk, not matter how small? -------------Do you handle your gecko? I'm sure most people do. Why not eliminate the risk of dropping it/dropping its tail. I don't want to get into a heated debate, and your reasoning is very logical, but I think sand has been made more infamous than it really is. The leopard gecko I work with at the Univedrsity of Tennesse was hatched in 1983 and has been housed on playground sand its entire life....that thing may well be a record (I'm not sure what the record is).....and on sand. Don't believe me? I'd be more than willing to oblige and send verification through the Knoxville Zoo/University(where it was hatched, and later donated.

If you can eliminate it, why not? Papertowels, unglazed tile, reptile carpet or turf, all these other options are widely available---------and they look drab and don't stimulate natural behavior.

I believe one person here even did a roughened plaster and painted it to look like sand!-------------I saw that. It was reall good, I've also seen some really nice cement painted like sand.

>>playground sand is actaully one of the safest believ it or not.

I find most people are not willing to run it through the oven or sift it properly. This is a general husbandry forum, we strive for the balance between "best" and "what someone is actually willing to do."

I respect your position and your experience, but I reject your implication that natural behaviors cannot be seen from "drab" or "fake" setups just because of the bottom of the tank. The substrate is just one small part of an enclosure, and besides bad heat management, probably the closest to "dangerous" you can get. All of my geckos live on papertowels, but I would hardly call their environments any more "fake" than anything we can create since we are not in the middle east or the rest of their "home towns."

Again, I have to ask, if you are so interested in natural behavior, where are the scorpions? Are you at least a part of the cricket/moving prey thumping crowd as I am? Perhaps instead of worrying about what the gecko is sitting on as far as bringing out natural behaviors and perfect enclosures, you should be posting on every thread that feeds mealworms in a bowl? That, IMHO, is more psychologically damaging than papertowels. To make a hunter eat from a bowl. I've left here for a while because of getting burnt out about repeating that and "take it to the vet" over and over again.

I do have to stop respecting you at the comment about comparing this issue to handling and dropping tails. That's not even a comparison on the same level and completely irrelevant. Stay on topic, in this case enclosures, with your jabs and you will earn a better reputation.

I find most people are not willing to run it through the oven or sift it properly. This is a general husbandry forum, we strive for the balance between "best" and "what someone is actually willing to do."

I respect your position and your experience, but I reject your implication that natural behaviors cannot be seen from "drab" or "fake" setups just because of the bottom of the tank.------------------I didn't say they couldn't be seen, I just stated that there are certain behaviors that occur in a more authentic vivarium through the stimulation of senses such as smell and taste that (plants and substrate are excellent examples).One of my leos loves to burrow, and if I'm not careful with where and how I set up rocks she could burrow to a place in her tank so that it's very hard to get her out. How can a leo burrow in paper towels?

The substrate is just one small part of an enclosure, and besides bad heat management, probably the closest to "dangerous" you can get. All of my geckos live on papertowels, but I would hardly call their environments any more "fake" than anything we can create since we are not in the middle east or the rest of their "home towns." -------------------how can you say it's not anymore fake? You're using a bio/synthetic product that was produced in a factory (by definition that makes it more "fake" than anything found to occur naturally.) With plain logic a 4 year old could figure out that dirt, bark, sand, leaf-litter, ect. is more "real" in a natural sense than a paper towell.

Again, I have to ask, if you are so interested in natural behavior, where are the scorpions? Are you at least a part of the cricket/moving prey thumping crowd as I am? -------------------Putting in scorpions is not a valid retaliation for the argument due to action resulting in a high chance of death. Not only that, but the only behavior you would see is running and dying. Honestly I'm not real big on mealworms/superworms. I have never used a bowl of any kind and take great enjoyment from watching their eyes get big and their tails twitch. I have never really criticized anyone for using mealies (everyone has their methods,) but I deeply agree with you on how psychologically damaging it is for a hunter to eat from a bowl.

Perhaps instead of worrying about what the gecko is sitting on as far as bringing out natural behaviors and perfect enclosures, you should be posting on every thread that feeds mealworms in a bowl?-------------------I would if there ever was a topic concerning that (haven't seen one in a while).

That, IMHO, is more psychologically damaging than papertowels. To make a hunter eat from a bowl. I've left here for a while because of getting burnt out about repeating that and "take it to the vet" over and over again. ----------------I strongly agree with you and I sympathize with you in your frustration.

I do have to stop respecting you at the comment about comparing this issue to handling and dropping tails. That's not even a comparison on the same level and completely irrelevant. Stay on topic, in this case enclosures, with your jabs and you will earn a better reputation.---------------------I just brought that up to say that it is a potential danger, as is sand. That was the topic. The statement was just as relevent/irrelevent as talking about scorpions (we were taliking about substrate and I ws connecting certain behaviors with substrate. Scorpions had no place in here at all and completely irrelevent)

I am not trying to bash anyone, I am just expressing what's worked for me and sharing my experience. You bring interesting points to the table (such as the feeding) and you don't have to worry about respect from me. I can tell that you are well-versed in proper husbandry and take pride in your ability. For that you are in my good grace....Everyone has their methods and I love vivariums in the "realest/naturalist" way possible.

>>Putting in scorpions is not a valid retaliation for the argument due to action >>resulting in a high chance of death. Not only that, but the only behavior you would >>see is running and dying.

Scorpions are actually a part of their natural diet, and they're immune to the venom (see the diet section of the linked page), so the scorpions are the only ones who'd be running and dying. The real reason no one feeds scorpions to their leos is that scorpions are not mass produced as feeders. Well, that and not wanting to get stung themselves, I imagine.
Los Angeles Zoo Leopard Gecko information.

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0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear

I could have sworn I saw a youtube vid of a young leo being killed by a scorpion...and where there is one species of scorpion in very arid regions there are usually more (not claiming to be an expert on this matter and could very easily be wrong...anybody know the scorpion species in Pakistan/India?).

You're right in your assessment though, mass production of feeder scorpions isn't very economical/popular at the moment and prices would probably be excessive.

I know that the yellow variety of scorpion has very deadly venom (is fatal to even humans) and it is quite small.
I believe that the black ones don't usually carry strong venom, more of an irritant.
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1.1.5 Mali Uromastyx (Ra, Isis) Sobek, Atum, Tut, Nefertum, Braveheart
0.1 Super Hypo Tangerine Leopard Gecko (Lucy)
0.1 Sunglow Leopard Gecko (Nyu)
1.1 Satanic Leaf-tail Gecko (R.I.P. Diablo and Samael)
2.0 Tabby cats (Cloud, Magus)

Is the problem with impaction due to people feeding crickets/meal worms directly in the tank itself?

What if my tank is sand, and I take out the leo to be fed elsewhere in a box or something? Would that alleviate the problem?

Leo's wouldn't just intentionally eat the sand they walk on would they?

Three "accepted" ways the geckos can ingest sand:

Striking at prey - yes some people have been known to box feed, as is more common with snakes and such, only cautionary is how much to you want to handle and do you want to associate handling with feeding? (Had to break a leo's habit of that once.)

It is believed eating it directly to replenish minerals in their diet (this is why Ca dishes are pushed so hard) I have not seen this behavior personally, so YMMV, but this is often presented and pushed.

Shed skin - If the gecko doesn't use a shed box/moist hide or various things to rub against. it can roll around in the sand and pick up a lot of sand with the ingested skin. This I have seen... in fact, some will just roll everywhere: I have a girl now that I've seen shedding by rolling in her Ca dish. She got her dose of Ca for sure!

Hope that helps, just regurgitating general leo info, nothing new.