Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My eggs are on day 56. I cut them yesterday. I dont see any movement though! Should I be seeing movement? I really dont even see a heart beat! Should I be worrying? One of the eggs is getting mold on it!

You'll see movement in the eggs if they're disturbed. Poke 'em to see if they move.
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Michael

No movement! They are fully developed! Can see the pattern perfect. Whole body color. Large veins still on them. I poked and no movement! Worries me alot!

There is no movement! I noticed when i see other peoples clutches cut all the fluid seems perfectly clear. Mine isnt that clear. It has a whitish tint to it! I can take some pics and post if it will help!

Here is a pic of the Bee egg. There is absolutely no movement! Really worried. Got all this way now they are not moving! Ohh goly got my hope all up!

Take a Q-Tip and gently tickle the hatchlings, "gently with the soft cotton end of the swab", they should twitch.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

No twitch atleast it doesnt look like it to me. Any clues or suggestions? Let them go a day or two and see if they move about?

let them complete their incubation,
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Maybe it's just the picture, but that looks like an underdeveloped spider to me and not a bee. What temp have you been incubating at? If your using sharp scissors to cut the egg try giving it a light poke, you should get a twitch in response. Also note how it's laying and compare it in an hour or two as they do move around quite a bit in the egg. A side note: I'm all for cutting early to see what's inside, I do it on day 52. But there is no reason to remove part of the shell before the babies have actually popped their heads out. A tiny slit, a pair of tweezers, and a flashlight is all that's needed.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

And im incubating them at 90!

WHY CUT??????? I don't get it... wait for them to hatch!!!!

That's what you get when you cut early... problems!
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globalreptiles.ca

Well if they werent moving when i cut them then there might have been a problem before that!! I dont think the minute i cut them I killed them! He looked like a spider to me to but his head def doesnt look like a spiders head!

There are MANY...MANY breeders who cut open thier eggs...and while many people might not admit it, having fully developed dead babies is not all that uncommon, it happens...sometimes babies have internal issues or congentital defects that they for some reason make it all the way to pipping and just don't make it.

If it was already dead in the egg, there is nothing that could be done...its not your fault. Cutting or not cutting has nothing to do with it. It happens...sometimes...

Don't for a second believe that by cutting open the egg you killed it...NO WAY...that is just absurd...

If they are indeed fully developed dead hatchlings...I am very sorry...thats a tough expereince...I am very sorry.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I can't see the head in the pic? If the head was visible before then the snake had to of moved unless you can just see it at a different angle?

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

His head is right on the side! You cant see it without looking under there!

I sent you a link to a video of a big python breeder cutting open his eggs...let me know if you don't get it...

The veining looks really good, and it looks like you cut them correctly in that you didn't cut all the veins.....I would just sit and watch to see if you can see ANY movement...they don't move a whole lot...but there should be at least some movement, especially if they are touched...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Cutting open the eggs if done right and carefully does not present ANY problems what so ever....I do not agree that because he cut open the eggs he is now having problems, many times hatchlings for some reason or another make it all the way to full term and then die...it happens all the time...just beacuse someone cuts open an egg to find a fully developed dead baby, does not mean it died because they cut open the egg...no way!

I would like to hear from people who don't cut open eggs...have they ever found fully developed dead hatchlings in the egg? I bet they have...cutting or not cutting doesn't have anything to do with fully developed dead hatchlings...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

"many times hatchlings for some reason or another make it all the way to full term and then die...it happens all the time..."
No, it doesn't.
I only ever SLIT the eggs after a few have pipped on thier own, read: SLIT, not rip it apart like in the above pic. I've only ever had ONE baby dead in the egg and that's out of over 500 hatchlings. So no, it does not happen "all the time".
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www.strictlyballs.ca

It does happen...and cutting the egg open has nothing to do with it. But what do I know...You seem to be the Canadian Expert of Ball Pythons...

The first time breeder didn't kill the hatchling by cutting it open, I would bet my whole collection on it.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

No one said he killed it... but look at that egg.. looks like he used a chainsaw on that thing... brutal.

No need to ever cut an egg until one pips!
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globalreptiles.ca

Anyone who "pips" eggs before the first ball does is putting their impatience before the health of the aniamls that they are responsible for. You all need to take a deep breath and relax.
They pip on thier own for a reason, they DON'T NEED YOUR HELP.
As for my last comment with reference to babies dying all the time in the egg; maybe there's a reason all of yours are dying.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

So your saying people shouldn't incubate eggs either, as its not natural, you should let the female coil around them and incubate them maternally....

There is not scientific basis to your claim of manuelly pipping an egg having negative effects on the health of the hatchling...

While it is your opinion and way of doing it, it doesn't make it law....Everything we do with these snakes is not natural, getting these snakes up to breeding size faster to breed them is not natural, artificially incubating the eggs is not natural....so why would manuelly pipping the eggs be any different than anything else we do with them in this hobby....

Ratus Domesticus is not thier natarual food either...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Cutting eggs open before they are ready to hatch opens the door for bacteria to enter the egg... think about it.. 89 degrees and a butt load of humidity.. what a perfect place for bacteria to grow.
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globalreptiles.ca

This is just my opinion, but I have had animals that I have not pipped die in the eggs. If they do not pip on there own they can drown in the egg. In 2 cases I have lost some animals that never pipped. At day 57 none had pipped a few years ago, I decided to pip 2 just to see, both animals were alive and ended up poking their heads out by the end of the day. The other 3 eggs I let sit to pip by themselves. The last 3 never pipped, at day 60 I pipped the last ones, they were all developed and colored up but dead in the eggs. This has happened 2 times to us in the last 5 years. Maybe it is just a very bazzare fact that I got lucky and pipped the only alive ones and the others had been dead the whole time, but the odds are that is not the case. We have had close to about 2000 hatchlings in the past 5 years. Since we lost those 2 clutches I have been nervous and pip them at day 54 if they are not pipping by themselves. Since then i have NEVER lost an animal that i have pipped, we have had animals that were kinked or not fuly developed and already dead, due to other resaons since their siblings were always ok.

So like I said again just my experience and opinions. I only slit the eggs as well but know many that cut the eggs completley open. I do not feel that it effects them in any way whatsoever, I feel more comfortable pipping at day 54 because of the 2 times that we have lost eggs in the past.

Kim
N.A.R.C

"If they do not pip on there own they can drown in the egg."
Then they were not meant to make it. If they can't get out of the egg on their own, they shouldn't live. Sounds harsh but Darwin has a theory about that, check it out. If a baby is too weak or undeveloped to not be able to make it out of it's own eggs, is that really a trait you want to pass down to the offspring that this "defective animal" that would otherwise have died not for your interruption, possess? Not a positive inheritable trait.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

Maybe its true then again maybe not. I have pipped more then 2000 babies in the last 5 years before they have the chance to cut out on there own. I have held back many of many of my own animals and never had a problem with one. I do not think not pipping out of an egg on its own is a genetic trait passed down to its offspring. Maybe the animal was weak to begin with but that definatley does not make it genetic. I know of a lot of people including myself that have animals that will not eat after shedding and trying everything. I do not say well, it wasnt meant to live if it isnt going ot eat on its self and watch it die. I also do not beleive that just because it didnt eat or was "weak" in the beginning will its offspring follow it suit. I had a Bumble Bee a few years ago that needed a little help getting started. He took off is a amazing breeder and has amazing HEALTHY offspring.

Again this is my experince and opinions. I do not beleive everything I hear, exspecially "theroys" --

Kim
N.A.R.C

While i agree to most of your post. I disagree with the idea that cutting the top of the egg off doesn`t affect the babies. I`m not saying it will harm their overall being, but it has to stress them out big time. How many times have you seen a baby ball pull his(or her) head back in the egg when you are checking your eggs? People use hide boxes to make their older balls feel safe and secure, so why do the complete opposite to a baby that has never seen the light of day??? I also SLIT my eggs, at times, due to having had similar cicumstances as yours occur. I have no problem with that as the baby is still virtually sealed in it`s egg. Just my .02.

Maybe I said it wrong in my last post, or maybe you were not responding to me sorry if that is the case. But I do not agree with carving up the eggs like I have seen people do in the past, I do not think you can kill a baby from doing it :if it is done properly a piece of the egg can be removed" But i do not do this. I only cut a very small slit in the egg to keep an eye on them. I have only cut open eggs if the baby isnt moving or has been in the egg days after its siblings come out. I agree with you on the fact that they do like having that saftey net of being able to retract into the egg. I agree that they feel safer with just a slit in the egg but still something to hide in
Kim
N.A.R.C

You know your setup and you know what you're doing. I have my incubation down to a T. I know every clutch I have will hatch in 55-57 days. I've cut well over 1,000 ball python eggs without a single complication. I included a picture to describe what I consider cutting though, as a lot of the pics I see I would consider butchering. Think of it as being a little kid peaking at his xmas gifts early, you want to leave them the way you found them so you don't get in trouble.

Eric

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www.ESReptiles.com

np
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www.ESReptiles.com

Eric, I'm really happy you showed a picture of what a slit should look like in an agg. I've seen so many butcher jobs of people "pipping" thier eggs on this forum it's not even funny. I'm surprised with the gashes left in those eggs, that any survive at all.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

you know I'm on you side in the cutting debate (strongly so), but I don't think it has anything to do with this case. He hasn't witnessed any movement from the second he cut them. If they are dead, they were dead before he got into them.

IF they are dead, they will smell like arse.. its not hard to tell.
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globalreptiles.ca

np

Days? A dead ball python in an incubator will stank in less than 24 hours... try it!
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globalreptiles.ca

The eggs natural antibacterial properties will keep a dead embryo fresh for quite a while. If you're smelling it, its been dead for a while....

Now that is a nice cut... just perfect!

No need to slice the whole top of the egg off!

I know my clutches hatch at 57-58 days but I never cut until one pips.. thats just me.
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globalreptiles.ca

N/P
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

If not, here's some food for thought. My hypothesis on "full term dead in egg" syndrome is a rise in temperature toward the end of incubation. Depending on you set up, its feasible that the temps in the egg box can be several degrees higher than outside. If the outside was already at 90 degrees, and you have more than a handfull of eggs in the box, you may have cooked them. Again, I sincerely hope they're fine...

If you'd like, describe your incubation set up for me, and we can talk about the possibilities, for what its worth, I haven't had a full term dead in egg since developing this theory and addressing it, and were talking at least 7 or 8 clutches over the past 3 or 4 years....maybe I'm right or maybe just lucky...

JP, could you please explain how you control for the higher temps in egg boxes toward the end of incubation period? I know I would like to understand your theory better . . . . Thanks
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

Alice, I don't want to jump in and answer for JP here, but in order to alleviate some of the heat that builds up in the egg container a week or so before pipping (caused by the baby in the egg actually producing it's own heat) you simply do what you might already do; I open the bin a few times a day and "wave" in some fresh air and move the hotter, stale air out. Keeps the temps from getting too high and babies dying in the egg days before they're scheduled to pip. I've only ever had one baby die in it's egg, and that was after it had pipped itself.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

I don't know if this helps or not but at day 50 I've been moving my eggs from their incubating box into a hatching box (a few air holes) I figured it was good for air exchange and keeping the temps down -- seems to work well and the babies gel in that box for the first few days of life. I also keep my temp probe in the box of the clutch that is closest to hatching. But I'm just playing it by ear with my fingers crossed so far it's working well.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Tosh and mykee have pretty good solutions, but it all depends on your set up. If you're doing one clutch, simply dial it back about 1 degree per week at week 6 and 7. I personally work with small incubators that hold 3 or 4 clutches, and I try to keep the probe in the egg boxes. Generally, whichever clutch is closest to hatching has the probe in it, so it is pretty much impossible to overheat. Its just what I do, and I have no hard data to back it up but I haven't lost one fertile egg in several seasons....

I had a clutch hatch once and all but 1 were out with the last egg not even pipped yet. I cut the egg enough to see the baby inside. I poked it and prodded it to no avail. I then cut the egg some more and poked a little more and still nothing. Oh well, it happens. I figured I'd take the baby out of the shell to see if I could find any abnormality. When I pulled it out of the shell it decided that was enough and it moved. I then of course freaked out because I had removed it from it's egg and it still had a bunch of yolk left. So what did I do? I put it back in the egg. It stayed there for another 2 days and then came out on it's own. It's been fine ever since. Maybe there is still hope for your babies. I would turn down your temp a degree or 2 though. As has been mentioned already, the added heat of hatching eggs could have been too much for them. Hopefully not. Good luck.

I think this thread is a good one to show how to, and how not to cut eggs. If the egg looks like you took a weed wacker to it, that would be the wrong way to cut an egg. I would suggest letting them pip on their own, when THEY are ready, from now on. Or, go to Eric's and get some lessons. If by day 60 or more, they have not pipped, and you are incubating them at 90, hmmmm, and at day 65, I would say slit them. Up to that point, there is really no reason other than you can't wait to see what you produced.

Some lessons are learned the hard way, like my lesson about too much water in the incubation substrate. I lost 10 good Sulfur eggs my first year. Lesson learned.

I hope you get off easier than I did, and you snakes are ok, but put the weed wacker or chainsaw down, and step away from the eggs.

And for crying out loud, if you have to practice, I would not practice on Spiders.

I cut my eggs on day 58. (It was my first season).
I was kinda worried because a few of my babies weren't moving around either...but I left them alone.
Eventually, they all came out on their own.

He might just be conserving energy.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Ball python incubation is 60 days for a reason! Not 56 days, not 53 days, not 54 days, 60 FRIGGIN' DAYS! It's almost comical that people are cutting at 53 days AND THEN wonder why there's no movement etc.

Just an FYI...not sure where you got the 60 day number, but I've found 60 days to be the rarity. My averages over the years, incubating between 88 and 89 degrees is about 56 - 57 days (to pipping). In fact, I've only had one clutch ever to get to day 59 without pipping on its own. I think 8 weeks is a much more realistic benchmark.

I average 56 days to when the snakes leave the egg. That's whether I cut them or not. My ambient temps, while the females are gravid, is probably higher then most and my incubator is set at 89.6

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com