Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so i've read several places online that snakes do not need UVB. however my cali king just had a skin problem that i took her to the vet for. the vet said to get rid of the red lights and moon lights - and the bark i had her on as well?. she said UVB and UVA lighting is absolutely just as important as clean water and food for my snake. she said to get my snake on UVB asap. she said that while snakes get Some calcium from their food, without uvb, most of the calcium and vitD3 passes right through, and not being created by the snake. so does anybody here use UVB? i'm curious now lol. thanks

I would think that not very many people use either light on their snakes. I've raised up many ratsnakes and kingsnakes and never had any lights on them. The shedding problem may be lack of humidity, but I have kept a few kingsnakes that always have had problems shedding. I would just soak them for an hour or so and then the skin usually came off with no problems.

yes, but she didn't have problems shedding, i provide her moss and a box, usually comes off in one piece.

probably what she said was that without D3 the calcium passes right through, since D3 has a well established role in calcium homeostasis. But that does not explain how nocturnal species acquire D3. If a snake is primarily nocturnal and does not bask it must get D3 from it's diet.

I don't think UVA or UVB has anything to do with your problem. I think it was the bleach as Mike Russo suggested in the first place. I can tell you that there are 1000's of folks keeping and breeding Cal Kings without regard for UVA and UVB and the snakes do just fine.

Question, how is your snake doing now? Is it feeding? How do those brown patches look today? Any sign of that snake going into shed? If it isn't, I bet it will soon, and hopefully you will see a little improvement after it sheds.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

i see. she only owned a bearded dragon and a ball python. i wonder if i was screwed out of 51 dollars with this lady.

she is doing alright now. the vet said always let her have access to water. so i put the dishes back in, as septicemia was ruled out, by her...

her skin is still not the best on the belly, the colors are still in the creases of her, but the loose pieces have stopped coming off. she is getting ready shed, has been in her moss box all day. i hope she's gettin better!!!!!

WOW.. In my opinion your vet needs to either stick to dogs and cats or go back to vet school, she was either sleeping or absent the day they reviewed basic reptile care..

~ Mike Russo

......accidentally picked up the Iguana book instead of the "snake basics 101" book!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

wouldn't surprise me. the lady's ball python had a respiratory problem, and she kept it on cut newspaper. damnit, she was probably talking out of her ass for 10 minutes to collect 50 bucks. but she said uvb makes reptiles grow like no other. so i guess i'll just leave the uvb, and stick to what i was doin. i feel used lol

As others have said, there are many, many people who keep their snakes without UVB. I have a Honduran Milk that I've owned for 20 years that has never had UVB exposure. When turtles and lizards aren't exposed to UVB light, it affects their bones, not their skin.

My guess is that the bark substrate was irrritating your snake's skin. I think if you switch to a newspaper substrate and let your snake shed a couple times, it will be fine.

I also think that you should look into getting a new vet.

Tim

Third Eye

i totally agree!!

Not only do snakes not need UVA OR UVB, torts, monitors, geckos, chams, etc etc etc do not need it. At least not those stupid bulbs.

Ok, to clear that up, they do not need special bulbs or the sun.

Lets start with snakes and I will not use others experiences(heresay), I will do what this forum SHOULD be about, I will use my firsthand experience.

I have kept and bred kingsnakes since 1964, continuiously. Generation after generation after generation. Inbred, outbred, created morphs and phases, and developed lines. Which is not bragging in this case, its to show that all manner of breeding was done. Which means all manner of genetics was explored.

And during all these decades and all these different species and genetics, I never had a need for a single UVA or UVB bulb.

During this time, we supported snakes to grow to full size and record size. We supported snakes to reproduce under a year of age and still grow to full or record size. We supported snakes to live up to thirtyfive years. We supported females to multiclutch for an average of 15 years, then single clutch years after that.

Now for the kicker, all without UV bulbs and in a good percentage of the case, any lite bulb what so ever. Heat was offered via heat pads and strips. And there never was problems your experiencing, or any other base health problems.

What you have is a base health problem that is caused by a compromised immune system. Such things as mouthrot, common infections, Upper respitory infections, are caused my common gram negative bacteria. These are NORMALLY controlled by a normal immune system. Of course there are more types of pathogens effected by a compromised immune system.

Oh by the way, I work with snakes in the field with longterm field studies and have spent my long life in the field over much of the world. Wild snakes(reptiles) use a range of temps to accomplish a range of physical goals.

Simply put, they have a temperature area to rest and conserve energy(what reptiles do) they have a temp area to digest prey, and a different one for each size of prey. They have a temp area for shedding, and a temp area for incubating ovum in their bodies, and for embryos in their body(species dependant) I can keep going but lets get to the point, they HAVE A SPECIFIC HEAT RANGE(efficiently) TO BUILD AND MAINTAIN THEIR IMMUNE SYSTEM.

Now for your answer, when snakes are brought or kept(cb) in captivity, they are often not allowed to reach the temps THEY WANT, they are often kept in temp zones above or below what they NEED. This does not allow that snake to function in a natural way. So it becomes both mentally and physically STRESSED.

This STRESS causes the immune system to weaken and eventually fail(compromised immune system). Then our captives fail from the most common of disease vectors.

That your VET blames bulbs(uv) and does not understand the immune system, is cause for you to find one that does. Get rid of your vet and find a good one.(nothing against your vet personally, but consider there are good and bad individuals in all trades) what you have done is succeeded in finding a bad one.

Now back to your snake, you mention some goofy bark. Can such things as poor substrate choices cause such things are your experiencing, yes to a point. Some substrates are prone to bacteria build up, and that coupled with a compromised immune system is a sure path for a sick or dead snake. Some substrates are uncomfortable, and that causes physical stress.

Now lets talk about you, which is something the vet should have done. You sound like a very very newbie keeper. Yet, you picked the cage and its contents and its conditions. You picked them for your needs under your understanding. Your not being a bad person, your just doing what you think you know.

What you should have done is, set the snake up in PROVEN methods that allow the snake to be healthy and progress to a normal life(as normal as can be in captivity)(which is not all that normal) Even if you think its ugly. Your task is to first maintain a healthy snake. Then suit your visual needs.

Once you have a normal growing healthy snake, then you can decorate the cage to something that you like. Then if the snake ceases to be healthy, YOU KNOW YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG. In nearly all cases, we keepers are the one doing something wrong.

The horrible thing for us keepers is, snakes are a genus, they are a species, they are a subspecies, and often they are a morph. But more importantly, they without question are individuals. As all humans are humans, we too are individuals and have our very own set of needs. This is so with snakes, they ARE NOT WINDUP TOYS.(many here treat them as such)

So your individual snake may REQUIRE, the ability to be secure(hide totally) And hide in proper conditions, not too hot or too cold or too dry or too wet. And have the feel that individual requires.

The truth is, strong individual snakes can indeed get by with average conditions(common on this board) but weak or compromised individuals cannot, they suffer from average conditions. That you just acquired a snake, most likely means it was subjected to conditions that test its strenght, you know, petshops, shipping, moving from home to home, moving from nature to captivity, etc. So your individual may be compromised already.

So please go find a good vet and go tell that other vet off.(show this post) And I wish you luck with your wonderful kingsnake. Cheers

I can add my signature only.. n/p
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Radim Soukup
www.kingsnake.cz
Czech Republic, EU

Great Post FR..

As you mentioned and I agree with, the O/P should print out your response along with the rest of our responses and show them to the vet when she asks for every penny of her hard earned money back..

More importantly, this vet should be a professional and refer future herp clients to a vet in the area that actually knows about herps instead of being greedy and "treating" animals that she obviously know nothing about!

AND...

For those of you reading this thread that do not already know of a knowledgeable herp vet in your area, please note that the best time to find a good herp vet is BEFORE you actually need one!

~ Mike Russo

> "please note that the best time to find a good herp vet is BEFORE you actually need one!"

* Those few words should be chiseled in a tablet of stone, and is truly some of the best advice a snake keeper could ever receive,...period!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Did it shed yet ? My feeling is if it sheds it will be fine.The two snakes I had with this condition both died so consider yourself lucky.
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Doug L

she shed, her skin is lookin better. i had to use shed ease cuz she had a weird shed goin. her skin is wrinkly at the curves, it's like she's ready to shed again! but ya, definitely a new vet.

i'm leaving the UVB setup tho. natural light won't hurt. and the reptile owners at the vet's said there turtles and lizards took the uvb lighting like miracle grow. got huge. so hopefully she'll be a happy, healthy, HUGE king!! lol, thx for the help everybody

Great post, FR.
I totally agree.
There's nothing wrong with a little uvB, but remember, most snakes don't live in a desert region, and it's not high noon at the equator 24 hours a day, so if you're going to use a strong light, be sure to maintain a realistic photoperiod, and give your snake enough room to completely avoid the light, and it's effects. Thankfully, most bulbs sold as UV bulbs actually don't produce much UV. I wouldn't recommend a powersun or activeUV bulb (Or a mercury vapor type basking bulb) in your snake's enclosure, as the light is inescapeable, and will dry out the cage too much. As well as being super-hyper-overkill for anything except a sulcata or desert lizard.
Just use common sense, change the bedding frequently, and handle your animals frequently enough to know how they act normally to spot health problems early on. I have a wonderful old cal-king male that's fast approaching the quarter century mark, and has never seen UV lights of any kind, and is as healthy as any other snake I've handled or seen.
Find another vet.

I should also mention, that I've taken care of almost every reptile that's available in the pet trade, and yes, water turtles, sulcatas, etc, all need UVB.
Snakes may brighten their colors a bit after 2 months exposure, but that may/may not indicate anything more than the human equivalent of a 'tan'. I had a pale albino prarie king that really brightened up after using an overhead UVB lamp as a basking light, but that snake was an exception, in many ways. It takes a month or 2 to see any difference.